Replacing The Altar with a "podium"?

[FaithofAbraham]

It isn’t another sacrifice, it IS the sacrifice.
All sinners play the role of the Romans and Jews. It is because we have sinned, and continue to sin, that Christ was put on that cross. That is one of the reasons why Catholics have such a deep devotion to the Cross, it is a reminder that he was put up there because of our faults, past, current, and future.

Well if you’ve been here long enough, then I’m sure your aware that Catholics take the words “This is my body” very seriously. The Eucharist is the body and blood of Christ, and to take the Eucharist is a deep act of communion. That is why the mass has so many rubrics and traditions surrounding it, we believe that this is the pinnacle of Catholic life. There is nothing more important then our union with Christ and the mass takes us there, physically and spiritually.

I see. I don’t think Jesus asked us to be the Romans or Jews who send him to death, but to be believers who accept that Jesus (bread) delivers the New Covenant (wine) and is the one who takes our prayer offerings to God so we can have life.

 

[Freshman88]

I see. I don’t think Jesus asked us to be the Romans or Jews who send him to death, but to be believers who accept that Jesus (bread) delivers the New Covenant (wine) and is the one who takes our prayer offerings to God so we can have life.

No one is asking us to take the place of the Romans or Jews, except for the evil one. We do however, contribute to Christ’s crucifixion with every sin we commit. If we were sinless, Christ would not have to die for us, but alas we are, and so it is because of our sins that Christ was crucified. In other words, with every sin committed we share in the guilt of those legionaries and Jews who crucified Christ.

He does much more then just bring our prayers to God, He dies and suffers to pay for all the sins we have made.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

No one is asking us to take the place of the Romans or Jews, except for the evil one.

We do however, contribute to Christ’s crucifixion with every sin we commit. If we were sinless, Christ would not have to die for us, but alas we are, and so it is because of our sins that Christ was crucified. In other words, with every sin committed we share in the guilt of those legionaries and Jews who crucified Christ.

He does much more then just bring our prayers to God, He dies and suffers to pay for all the sins we have made.

Freshman88 said as much, “All sinners play the role of the Romans and Jews.”

Jesus sacrificed his life so as not to bow down to Jews who tried to silence his preaching, so that he could be put in the role of High Priest (bread) who takes our prayers to God to make atonement for us, thus delivering the New Covenant (wine).

So the real bread and wine is our repentance we offer as a sacrifice for sin. It isn’t making Jesus the bread and wine to sacrifice him again.

 

[Pwrlftr]

It was Jesus who made the altar important as He dictates what is and what isn’t Holy.

Remember, He never ever stated (nor has any Apostle ever taught) that the altar was no longer valid. In fact, what makes the altar valid is The Law and what did Jesus say about The Law? That not even one letter of The Law would be invalid and that it would be in effect until His return.

So therefore, as part of The Law, it is still valid (that is why it is used in the past, in the present and in the future as shown in Revelations).

Why hasn’t anybody shown me a scripture that states that that part of The Law (as stipulated in Leviticus) was done away with?



(Oh, not said saracastically at you directly )

If you claim that an altar is still needed than you must believe their is some sacrifice to be made that is pleasing to God.

Somehow or the other you are going to have to illustrate that the mass is a sacrifice. It’s that simple.

Without a sacrifice, the altar is useless.

 

[2ndGen]

If you claim that an altar is still needed than you must believe their is some sacrifice to be made that is pleasing to God.

 

[cradlecathlic26]

Yes, I agree it was essentially replaced.

WHY WAS IT ESSENTIAL THAT IT BE REPLACED?

The Word of God (Bible) being preached became the center of church life.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE WORD OF GOD WHEN GOD COMMANDED THAT AN ALTAR BE USED IN WORSHIPPING HIM?

IS THAT PART OF THE WORD OF GOD “NOT” PREACHED THEN?

As for the altars, it is more based on early writings and the connection to the OT altar that guides the belief.

WHAT ABOUT THE NEW TESTAMENT REFERENCES AND JOHN’S REVELATION OF THE FUTURE AND THE ALTAR STILL BE USED IN THE FUTURE?

Protestants dismiss it because they do not believe Communion is a true sacrifice. They lack that connection to the OT. Many claim that the passages in the NT are to be taken in the context of Jewish practice and thought…I think that actually reinforces the practice of altars.

SO, IS IT SAFE TO SAY THAT CATHOLICS AND THE SAINTS AND THE ANGELS AND JESUS AND GOD ALL AGREE THAT AN ALTAR IS O BE USED IN WORSHIPPING GOD?

AND THAT PROTESTANTS DISAGREE WITH GOD AND JESUS AND THE ANGELS AND THE SAINTS AND CATHOLICS?

(Note, caps not yelling or meaning to be rude, just force of habit I use to separate text between two posters).

AMEN

 

[holy_wood]

Malachi 1:11

My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations," says the LORD Almighty.

Lets analyze this prophesy

In every place incense and** pure offerings** will be brought to my name

A pure offering? I think that we can all agree that the one pure offering that was ever made was that of Jesus Christ on the cross.

because my name will be great among the nations, from the** rising** to the setting of the sun.

Thus, there will be only one **pure ** sacrifice, but it will be offered in many places around the world.

This prophecy is fulfilled only by the Catholic Church in the Masses around the world, where the sacrifice of Christ which transcends time and space is offered for our salvation.

If this prophecy is not fulfilled by the Catholic Church, then Malachi is a false prophet.

 

[FaithofAbraham]

If this prophecy is not fulfilled by the Catholic Church, then Malachi is a false prophet.

I think it is just accepting Jesus as Messiah in general, no matter if you are a Jew, Catholic, Baptist, etc.

 

[holy_wood]

The Book of Revelation and the Holy Mass

The Book of Revelation shows us glimpses of the heavenly liturgy – Jesus Christ’s once and for all sacrifice eternally present in heaven. This is why the Church has always incorporated the elements that John saw in the heavenly liturgy into her earthly liturgy, for they are one and the same liturgical action of Jesus Christ our High Priest.

Rev. 1:6, 20:6 - heaven’s identification of the priesthood of the faithful is the same as the Church’s identification on earth.
Rev. 1:12, 2:5 - there are lampstands or Menorahs in heaven. These have always been used in the Holy Mass of the Church on earth.
**Rev. 2:17 - there is manna in heaven given to the faithful. This is the same as the Eucharistic manna given to the faithful at the Holy Mass on earth. **
Rev. 4:8 - heaven’s liturgical chant “Holy, Holy, Holy” is the same that is used in the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 5:8, 6:9-11, 8:3-4 - heaven’s emphasis on the intercession of the saints is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
**Rev. 5:8, 8:3-4 - there is incense in heaven which has always been part of the liturgy of the Holy Mass on earth. **
**Rev. 6:9 - the martyrs who are seen under the heavenly altar is similar to the Church’s tradition of keeping relics of saints under the earthly altars. **
Rev. 4:4, 5:14; 11:16, 14:3, 19:4 - there are priests (“presbyteroi”) in heaven. Priests offer sacrifice. Our earthly priests participate with the heavenly priests in offering Jesus’ eternal sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.

Rev. 8:1 - the silent contemplation in heaven is similar to our silent contemplation at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 8:3, 11:1, 14:18, 16:7 - there is an altar in heaven. But no altar is needed unless a sacrifice is being offered in heaven. This is the same sacrifice that is offered on the altars used in the Holy Masses on earth.
Rev. 12:1-6, 13-17 - heaven’s emphasis on the Blessed Virgin Mary is the same as the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 14:4 - there are consecrated celibates in heaven, as there are with our Catholic priests and religious on earth.
Rev. 15:7, 16:1-4,8,10,12,17; 21:9 - there are chalices (or bowls) in the heavenly liturgy. This is like the chalices used to offer Christ’s sacrifice in the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev. 15:5 - there is a tent or tabernacle in heaven. Tabernacles are used to store the Eucharist at the Holy Mass on earth.
Rev.19:9 - the consummation of the Lamb at heaven’s marriage supper is the same as the Lamb’s supper in the Holy Mass on earth. Rev. 7:9; 14:6 - the catholicity or universality of heaven as God’s family is the essence of the Catholic faith on earth.

Yeah I’m sure a preacher, a podium, a song book, and the Bible is what God intended.
Its not like we can look to see how He would like to be worshiped by using scripture or anything.

 

[Pwrlftr]

If this prophecy is not fulfilled by the Catholic Church, then Malachi is a false prophet.

I’ll post more on this later but it’s more likely a case of you, holy_wood mis-understanding scripture.

 

[holy_wood]

Malachi 1:6-14
**

Blemished Sacrifices​

6 “A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?” says the LORD Almighty. "It is you, O priests, who show contempt for my name.
"But you ask, ‘How have we shown contempt for your name?’
7 "You place defiled food on my altar.
"But you ask, ‘How have we defiled you?’
“By saying that the LORD’s table is contemptible.
8 When you bring blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong? When you sacrifice crippled or diseased animals, is that not wrong? Try offering them to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you?” says the LORD Almighty.

9 “Now implore God to be gracious to us. With such offerings from your hands, will he accept you?”-says the LORD Almighty.
10 “Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you,” says the LORD Almighty, “and I will accept no offering from your hands.
11 My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD Almighty. 12 “But you profane it by saying of the Lord’s table, ‘It is defiled,’ and of its food, ‘It is contemptible.’
13 And you say, ‘What a burden!’ and you sniff at it contemptuously,” says the LORD Almighty.
“When you bring injured, crippled or diseased animals and offer them as sacrifices, should I accept them from your hands?” says the LORD.
14 “Cursed is the cheat who has an acceptable male in his flock and vows to give it, but then sacrifices a blemished animal to the Lord. For I am a great king,” says the LORD Almighty, "and my name is to be feared among the nations.
**

My name will be great among the nations

Among the nations? This would be the gentile nations would it not.

The animal sacrifices of the OT were no longer pleasing to God so he sent his only Son as the “pure offering”.

Is his name not great among the nations?

From the rising of the Sun to its setting in every Catholic Church arond the world the Mass is said.

 

[holy_wood]

I’ll post more on this later but it’s more likely a case of you, holy_wood mis-understanding scripture.

Malachi 1:6-14

Blemished Sacrifices

6 “A son honors his father, and a servant his master. If I am a father, where is the honor due me? If I am a master, where is the respect due me?” says the LORD Almighty. "It is you, O priests, who show contempt for my name.
"But you ask, ‘How have we shown contempt for your name?’
7 "You place defiled food on my altar.
"But you ask, ‘How have we defiled you?’
“By saying that the LORD’s table is contemptible.
8 When you bring blind animals for sacrifice, is that not wrong? When you sacrifice crippled or diseased animals, is that not wrong? Try offering them to your governor! Would he be pleased with you? Would he accept you?” says the LORD Almighty.

9 “Now implore God to be gracious to us. With such offerings from your hands, will he accept you?”-says the LORD Almighty.
10 “Oh, that one of you would shut the temple doors, so that you would not light useless fires on my altar! I am not pleased with you,” says the LORD Almighty, “and I will accept no offering from your hands.
11 My name will be great among the nations, from the rising to the setting of the sun. In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name, because my name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD Almighty. 12 “But you profane it by saying of the Lord’s table, ‘It is defiled,’ and of its food, ‘It is contemptible.’
13 And you say, ‘What a burden!’ and you sniff at it contemptuously,” says the LORD Almighty.
“When you bring injured, crippled or diseased animals and offer them as sacrifices, should I accept them from your hands?” says the LORD.
14 “Cursed is the cheat who has an acceptable male in his flock and vows to give it, but then sacrifices a blemished animal to the Lord. For I am a great king,” says the LORD Almighty, "and my name is to be feared among the nations.

My name will be great among the nations

Among the nations? This would be the gentile nations would it not?

The animal sacrifices of the OT were no longer pleasing to God so he sent his only Son as the “pure offering”.

Is his name not great among the nations?

From the rising of the Sun to its setting in every Catholic Church arond the world the Mass is said.

 

[2ndGen]

AMEN

 

[2ndGen]

QUOTE=holy_wood;3203777

"In every place incense and pure offerings will be brought to my name "

A pure offering? I think that we can all agree that the one pure offering that was ever made was that of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Thus, there will be only one **pure ** sacrifice, but it will be offered in many places around the world.

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but the scripture you quote says “offerings” (plural) and you offer Jesus’ “offereing” (singular) as proof that no more “offerings” (plural) are needed?

This prophecy is fulfilled only by the Catholic Church in the Masses around the world, where the sacrifice of Christ which transcends time and space is offered for our salvation.

Of course I’m not going to argue with that!

But the Scriptural quote is proof that multiple offerings are prophesized, right?

Jesus was the last “lamb” to be offered (in place of actual lambs) and he either transferred this sacrificial act or brought it back to the “manna” from heaven (bread) usage.

 

[2ndGen]

holy wood,

You brought an enlightment to me just now!

The Catholic Church is referred to as The Whore of Babylon by anti-Catholics using Revelations as their proof with one verse here, one verse there, yet never a complete passage to prove this.

Yet Revelations has complete passages that reveal The Catholic Church as The Church of Christ and they never will use these scriptures that describe the altar, the tabernacle, the candles, the Priestly vestments, the incense, etc…or completely ignore them.

They seem to believe that Jesus created The Church, yet, it never manifested and won’t be here until He comes back (even though, scripture for scriture, verse for verse, passage for passage, only one Church is reflected in The Holy Bible and that’s The same Church that revealed The Holy Bible to humanity…The Catholic Church!

 

[EmergencyOps]

There were always “podiums,” but the podium was always off to the side. During the Reformation, the podium became front and center as the message became more important. Later, many got rid of the altar completely.

My Baptist church has an alter, in the sense of a memorial alter…not a sacrificial alter. It’s a table that has “Do This In Memory of Me” on it, and always has flowers on it (usually from a recent family death). We have alter-calls that involve coming to the front to make a decision or pray.

 

[2ndGen]

My Baptist church has an alter, in the sense of a memorial alter…not a sacrificial alter. It’s a table that has “Do This In Memory of Me” on it, and always has flowers on it (usually from a recent family death). We have alter-calls that involve coming to the front to make a decision or pray.

That’s a start EO!

Now, imagine how beautiful it would be for your pastor to hold up the unleavened bread and to consecrate it along with the wine to offer and share the thanksgiving meal with the congregation?

To me, the most some of the most beautiful words that I hear that bring tears to my eyes are when the Priest says:

Luke 22:
19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he brake it, and gave to them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

20 And the cup in like manner after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood, even that which is poured out for you.

 

[holy_wood]

Correct me if I’m wrong here, but the scripture you quote says “offerings” (plural) and you offer Jesus’ “offereing” (singular) as proof that no more “offerings” (plural) are needed?

Of course I’m not going to argue with that!

But the Scriptural quote is proof that multiple offerings are prophesized, right?

Jesus was the last “lamb” to be offered (in place of actual lambs) and he either transferred this sacrificial act or brought it back to the “manna” from heaven (bread) usage.

I think your point is valid but the argument I put forth is not my own, I got it from scripturecatholic.com on the Eucharist as well as newadvent.org

Here is the Catholic translation of that verse. (I probably should have used it at the get-go.

Malachi 1:11

11 For from the rising of the sun even to the going down, my

name is great among the Gentiles, and in every place there is sacrifice, and **there is **offered to my name a clean oblation: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the Lord of hosts. A clean oblation… Viz., the precious body and blood of Christ in the eucharistic sacrifice. 12 And you have profaned it in that you say: The table of the Lord is defiled: and that which is laid thereupon is contemptible with the fire that devoureth it. 13 And you have said: Behold of our labour, and you puffed it away, saith the Lord of hosts, and you brought in of rapine the lame, and the sick, and brought in an offering: shall I accept it at your hands, saith the Lord? Behold of our labour, etc… You pretended labour and weariness, when you brought your offering; and so made it of no value, by offering it with an evil mind. Moreover, what you offered was both defective in itself, and gotten by rapine and extortion. 14 Cursed is the deceitful man that hath in his flock a male, and making a vow offereth in sacrifice that which is feeble to the Lord: for I am a great King, saith the Lord of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the Gentiles.

Note in this translation the sacrifice is singular.

Quite possibly the plural/singular disparency could be due to theological bias, either on the Catholic or Protestant side.

 

[holy_wood]

However, I read that St. Justin Martyr used this verse to demonstrate to the Jews why there sacrifice was no longer sufficient.

For anyone who may not be aware St. Justin Martyr was a Christian apologist, born at Flavia Neapolis, about A.D. 100, converted to Christianity about A.D. 130, taught and defended the Christian religion in Asia Minor and at Rome, where he suffered martyrdom about the year 165. Two “Apologies” bearing his name and his “Dialogue with the Jew Tryphon” have come down to us. Leo XIII had a Mass and an Office composed in his honour and set his feast for 14 April.

One may not agree with the interpretation but one cannot deny that these early Christians believed it.

Dialogue with Trypho (Chapters 9-47)

But I will lay before you, my friends, the very words of God, when He said to the people by Malachi, one of the twelve prophets, ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I shall not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for from the rising of the sun unto its setting My name shall be glorified among the Gentiles; and in every place a sacrifice is offered unto My name, even a pure sacrifice: for My name is honoured among the Gentiles, says the Lord; but you profane it.’

Malachi 1:10, etc. And by David He said, ‘A people whom I have not known, served Me; at the hearing of the ear they obeyed Me.’

Hence God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord; and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands: for, from the rising of the sun unto the going down of the same, My name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to My name, and a pure offering: for My name is great among the Gentiles, says the Lord: but you profane it.’ Malachi 1:10-12 [So] He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us, who in every place offer sacrifices to Him, i.e., the bread of the Eucharist, and also the cup of the Eucharist, affirming both that we glorify His name, and that you profane [it].

newadvent.org/fathers/01282.htm

 

[holy_wood]

holy wood,

You brought an enlightment to me just now!

The Catholic Church is referred to as The Whore of Babylon by anti-Catholics using Revelations as their proof with one verse here, one verse there, yet never a complete passage to prove this.

Yet Revelations has complete passages that reveal The Catholic Church as The Church of Christ and they never will use these scriptures that describe the altar, the tabernacle, the candles, the Priestly vestments, the incense, etc…or completely ignore them.

They seem to believe that Jesus created The Church, yet, it never manifested and won’t be here until He comes back (even though, scripture for scriture, verse for verse, passage for passage, only one Church is reflected in The Holy Bible and that’s The same Church that revealed The Holy Bible to humanity…The Catholic Church!

Your welcome