This just in…
Something to consider, people.
Something to consider, people.
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PetraG
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Agreed. Still, of course nobody here would have exposed themselves to polio, smallpox, or the Spanish flu because immunological experience is a necessity of life. I know people used to expose their children to chickenpox on purpose, just so they’d get it while they were young, but I somehow doubt anybody did that with the measles. This disease, too, seems to pose a threat of causing very serious post-infection complications in children.
There’s just so much we don’t know about it, excepting that it seems to be both more easily transmitted than many infectious diseases and no one has had it so that a local epidemic can turn up an overwhelming number of serious cases in a very short amount of time.
In a year, if we keep the number of infections relatively low, our ability to do risk assessment ought to be far better. The level of community resistance will probably be higher, because resistance after infection will probably last longer than that. The understanding of the actual risk factors–is high BMI really a risk factor or not?–the best treatment options and possible complications will be better. We might even have a vaccine. As for now, we have seen what happens when this thing hits a gathered crowd in a ballpark, restaurant, or a choir practice or people working close together under conditions where they have to shout to communicate (like meat-packing plants). We know what happens when people who have it gather for a birthday party or a funeral reception. That does not bode well for the safety of large Masses where we stand elbow-to-elbow and sing the way we really want to be able to do.
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pnewton
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FYI, we used printed song sheets, which everyone took one, whether they wanted or not, and left it in the pew when the left, serving as a marker to which places needed to be wiped down with disinfectant. We also had mandatory masks, and we had everyone seated by ushers.
As this is likely to go on for months and months, it is good to get started. We are on our third week.
As this is likely to go on for months and months, it is good to get started. We are on our third week.
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PetraG
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If I am not mistaken, the Albany, Georgia, outbreak is believed to be tied to someone who visited the area for a funeral which was followed by another large funeral (and undoubtedly the associated family gatherings). It is a fallen world. Providence has not guaranteed that diseases can’t be spread when the people of God gather.
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pnewton
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The article says “exposed”. Nothing in it says anyone else caught it, or if there were precautions in place to prevent a spread. Hey, if it bothers you, pretty much every place has a dispensation so one who is concerned does not have to attend.
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PetraG
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If you look at this excellent lay-level explanation that another CA member posted, you can see that outbreaks in large buildings seem to be mostly spreading within the same room.
I think since the infamous Legionnaire’s disease outbreak in the 1970s, engineering to improve indoor air quality has been a serious interest of HVAC engineers.
But still, yes: it isn’t Mass that is dangerous. It is being in close enough quarters to breathe someone else’s breath aerosol for an extended period of time. Spreading out crowds, gathering in larger spaces rather than smaller–even though I’m usually not one that likes the “marble in a bathtub” daily Masses in the main church when there is a suitable smaller chapel available–and even gathering for Mass outdoors when a suitable setting is available are all in store for our summer at the very least, I’d think.
Churches aren’t the issue just because of the number of people exposed. The problem is the nature of the exposure, which poses a much greater risk of exposed people taking in a very high viral load, due to the length of time spent talking loudly or singing. (That both produces more aerosol and disposes people to taking more very deep breaths of infected air.)
I think since the infamous Legionnaire’s disease outbreak in the 1970s, engineering to improve indoor air quality has been a serious interest of HVAC engineers.
I have not come out against resuming Masses, but I am serious about spreading the word that standing 6 feet away from someone outside your own household while you’re both singing is probably not far enough. We’re not ready to go back to having those lovely big weddings and funerals and Sunday Masses that we once had. I don’t hold with those who glumly predict that they’re gone forever; I’m just saying that we’re not in a position to re-instate them just yet. Our communities are medically unprepared for large COVID-19 outbreaks. These cripple local hospitals and seriously affect all hospital-based medical care. They also tend to put hospital workers at an unacceptably high risk of occupational death.
But still, yes: it isn’t Mass that is dangerous. It is being in close enough quarters to breathe someone else’s breath aerosol for an extended period of time. Spreading out crowds, gathering in larger spaces rather than smaller–even though I’m usually not one that likes the “marble in a bathtub” daily Masses in the main church when there is a suitable smaller chapel available–and even gathering for Mass outdoors when a suitable setting is available are all in store for our summer at the very least, I’d think.
Churches aren’t the issue just because of the number of people exposed. The problem is the nature of the exposure, which poses a much greater risk of exposed people taking in a very high viral load, due to the length of time spent talking loudly or singing. (That both produces more aerosol and disposes people to taking more very deep breaths of infected air.)
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pnewton
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Your community might be different. We are prepared, ready and doing a fine job resuming Mass. I am pleased that some places are ready. I hope your community will be ready soon.
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Peeps
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Speaking as a medical technologist and a “elder” (63 tomorrow!), I think this is an excellent idea!
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PetraG
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A 25% percent capacity threshold is pretty high. We’re resuming public Mass here, but not with nearly so many of the faithful allowed to attend a single Mass as that. Having said that, we didn’t close churches with enough interior space that the faithful could pray privately while maintaining a lot of distance. No group recitations of prayer allowed, though, because of the aerosol produced. Just quiet prayer. The exact guidelines at each church differed, though. (We were under lesser restrictions than many other places, I think.)
Does your bishop have any way to do contact tracing? Or do people just show up from where ever with no idea who was at any particular gathering?
Does your bishop have any way to do contact tracing? Or do people just show up from where ever with no idea who was at any particular gathering?
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27lw
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Happy birthday Peeps! I think 63 hardly qualifies as elder! 
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PetraG
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Pediatricians usually say that masks for children under 2 are contraindicated. For somewhat older children, wearing a mask is sometimes just a way to make sure they have their hands on their faces a lot more often. It is kind of a difficult call.
I don’t think the bishops will have elder-only Masses, because it could so easily encourage people to come out when the safest thing is to continue to stay home. (I also have a friend in a seniors-only apartment building, and she says she is constantly appalled at how bad most people in the building are about even the most rudimentary disease prevention measures.)
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PetraG
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Our friends used to refer to their child’s preschool as the Recombinant RNA Factory. I think you’re right about what a big difference hand-washing makes, though. The teachers at my school who religiously washed their hands before and after their class time and before and after they ate lunch didn’t get nearly as many bugs as the ones who weren’t so careful. (We’re science teachers, so we all have sinks in our classrooms…)
That large choir was in a room the size of a volleyball court, which is quite small of a room with 60 people in it. They were trained singers, so one would assume they were singing and inhaling deeply (and doing so without masks). I’m actually more surprised — knowing the circumstances — that 15 of them escaped being infected.
If people wear masks, 6 feet separation should be enough distance needed.
This is also the Christian ideal. We who are baptized into the Church as supposed to live a community of believers where doing good for the community takes precedence over our individual preferences, likes and dislikes. We are supposed to sacrifice our will for the will of God which is to do help one another, especially in times like this.
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pnewton
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No. There has been no spread from this type of Mass at this time. If it happens, we always have video.
I can give you my perspective on this, as I have done this now for almost two months. Singing and wearing a mask most definitely reduces the volume of air one takes in, and releases. It is an encumbrance. So for us, we accept that the singing will suffer for the sake of safety. I do use a little more mike to accommodate less breathing than I usually do.
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Frankie65
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CNN describes religious service thus… indoor meeting.
When do 120 people in a supermarket not make an indoor meeting
When do 120 people in a supermarket not make an indoor meeting
The “close quarters” for an “extended period of time” is why I do not intend to go to Mass possibly throughout the summer and maybe even beyond then.
Just thinking outside the box, I wonder if it would be a plan, to celebrate Mass at outdoor sports venues. Our Catholic high school has a very nice football stadium (though smallish and understated compared to some of those big colosseums they have in places such as Texas where high school football is, to say the least, huge) and it would be perfectly suitable for Mass. Smaller baseball parks would be another option. Summer is approaching and the weather will be nice. Just an idea.
Amen to that. Unless you have some kind of elite private academy that has the privilege of selecting the more mature, the “best and the brightest”, kids who have a thirst for learning at all times and want to be there, trying to impose all of these measures is going to be like herding squirrels.
Because people in supermarkets aren’t sitting still for 60 to 90 minutes, breathing basically the same air. With the occupancy limitations that are generally being applied, it would have to be an awfully large supermarket, to accommodate 120 people in the first place.
I generally do my grocery shopping via parking lot car delivery anyway. I do break over now and then, and go to places such as Walmart and Lowe’s at non-peak hours, wearing an N95 respirator with two plastic filters (not just a mask). I go to CVS for prescriptions, and I’m not crazy about that, as it’s a small pharmacy. But aside from that, we stay home and go out only for restaurant drive-through or curbside pickup, or to fill up the car with gas (which is obviously outdoor).
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PetraG
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You could look up the physical study of aerosol dispersión due to loud talking and know that 6 feet isn’t enough. As for the choir practice, yes, that was the worst case scenario, but it was also 45 out of 60 people infected by an asymptomatic spreader. That’s 75% infection and you know everyone could not possibly be within 6 feet of the infected person.
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Shasta-Rose
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We don’t have Mass yet, but we have our narthex open for private praying. Our church is pretty big and the narthex is a really big one. They have a scattering of folding chairs there, along with the chapel tabernacle and red “real presence” candle. I got there on time, hoping there wouldn’t be a crowd. I was the only one there!!! I went to pray for ten minutes and ended up staying for over a half-hour, hoping that I’d see somebody else show up, but nobody did. This is just an amazement to me.
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