Reporting crime based on hearsay information

[Blossoming]

From what I thought if you choose to stay anonymous in a police report then you can. Dont quote me on this, I dont know much about law.
Besides, if you got the news thru hearsay I doubt thats even relevant as court evidence, but if you were a direct witness you most likely can testify. Again, one needs to research the topic to be definate.

If you continually report hearsay information without basis in fact on various other people in your life to your local PD, FBI etc, you are going to get a name with the police department. First of all, there is no such thing as anonymity. If someone is constantly calling the police, even from payphones, to report sundry gossip, the police might eventually take it in mind to figure out who that person is doing the calling.

Secondly, I know of specific situations, one is which a person confessed to my friend that they had done a specific crime, arson and she did call, asked that her name not be used and she was told that she would be in breach of the law if, having called, she chose not to testify. Since she was in knowledge of crime, she had to give her name and permit herself to be called to the stand if necessary. The arsonist was eventually convicted, he plea-bargained. But there was no ‘anonymous’ to it.

If you watch any kind of crime TV, ie “Wicked Attraction” et al, you will see this over and over, that people who call in with anonymous tips are all checked out by the police, because the police wonder why you might be interested in the crime at all and to check your veracity. You will never see a case where some anonymous tipster led the police to a criminal with valid information and was allowed to stay uninvolved if their part was pertinent, like being confessed to. Often perpetrators call the police on others to misdirect them for their own crimes, so calling in anonymously places you on the suspicious list immediately.

I know what I’m talking about here, but you are most welcome to try it your way.

I should probably suggest too, that if you are just reporting a sin, like maybe a woman is wearing a dress you think is too sexy to Mass, or a non-issue like you heard through gossip that some woman doesn’t always take her prescription medicine which is not illegal, or perhaps some higher-up in your church is having an affair (not a police issue), I can assure you that the police keep files on people who constantly call in for issues like that and eventually they may get around to dealing with it by charging you with harassing others and/or wasting their time.

Gotta add that this stuff is also a sin, falling under slander, gossip, lying etc. If you call and try to anonymously put the police on someone you are mad at, that is a sin, probably mortal.

 

[EasterJoy]

**But I question: wouldnt our objective knowledge of that alleged criminal be convincing that the hearsay might be true. I’ll give a hypothetical example:

You know Joe was a thief (because it was publicized that he had pleaded guilty and was jailed over the past) Later on down the track, Jane tells you that Joe had confessed to her about stealing something valuable recently (after he was released from jail). Jane said this to you as a trusted friend and had no intention to get Joe in another legal process. This is hearsay but would you have the reason to think its very likely and then tell the police what you heard? **

You give a good hypothetical example !!
I would ask myself first, is Jane ticked off at Joe about something?
Have they had a fight? Sometimes people angry at another do fabricate things.
If I have no reason to believe that Jane is making it up, I would first try to ascertain whether Joe confessed this ONLY to Jane. Why? Because if I anonymously rat him out, he would then know that it was Jane who told people what he did. Then, if he makes bail, he might do something to her in revenge. I wouldn’t want to be even remotely responsible for that. If Jane’s story to me is reasonalble and convincing, and IF I knew Joe and his address, I would first TYPE an anyonymous letter on the word processor and send it to him, letting him know that I (and I wouldn’t give my name) know that he stole that $10,000 gold watch from so-and-so, and that if he doesn’t return it to so-and-so within seven days (and I am going to check with so-and-so to see if he gets it back), then I will turn him over to the cops. Some will object, BUT THAT GIVES JOE TIME TO DISPOSE OF THE STOLEN WATCH !! And of course, you are right, but if he were going to do THAT, he would probably have already done it BEFORE he told Jane, or at least well before Jane got around to telling ME. All this of course assumes that I also know the person he allegedly stole it from.
But if I don’t have reliable (really reliable to my standards) info that Joe in fact stole the $10,000 watch, then no, even if I am friends with Jane and generally trust her, no, I am not going to accuse Joe to the cops. Cuz what if he DIDN’T do it, but the cops file charges, and then Joe has to spend tens of thousands of dollars on attorney’s fees to defend himself from a false charge? Even if he is acquitted, he may have wiped out his family’s life savings for no valid reason. After all, the cops and the courts aren’t going to volutarily reimburse him $35,000 in lawyers fees if he gets acquitted. If he was falsely accused, then the ones who accused him without solid evidence, should have to pay his attorney’s fees.

Well, first of all, in theory the police can’t just go arrest him based on hearsay. The hearsay is just a tip-off that a crime may have been committed. It is their job to find real evidence before they arrest anyone.

At any rate, IMHO, these are questions to raise with Jane when she relates the crime to you. You have to tell her, “Jane, these are crimes, and you have to report your knowledge of them to the police. If you don’t, I’ll have to.”

As for whether the information is hearsay, that is something the police will ask about when you make your report. You can relate all your misgivings about Jane’s motives for telling you when you report the possibility that a crime has been committed.

Now, if your local police force has a reputation for acting rashly or arresting people on the slightest pretext, then you may have more of a moral dilemma on your hands…and this kind of thing does happen in some neighborhoods and does ruin the finances of not a few poor families. In that case, I’d take the particular case to a trusted third party, such as your pastor or even a layperson you know to have sound judgement.

Report him just because he has stolen something in the past?
NO.
People sin, and then repent, all the time.
That’s like accusing a man today of being a wanton adulterer because
he committed adultery many times back in the 1980s or something.
He may have been repentant for 20 years or more, and then get accused of
adultery when he is now entirely innocent, and everyone believes the accusation because
of his long repented sins. That isn’t right, either.
These are serious dilemmas and there are no easy answers.
NOW. If I see a grown man on an elementary school schoolyard,
dealing dangerous illegal drugs to little kids, then even though I HATE to get ANYBODY
in trouble, by heaven I am going to report him for that. Because: 1) I saw it, and 2) he is endangering the lives of those poor kids. That is intolerable and he has to be stopped from doing that.
A one-time family friend, who became a born-again protestant Christian, fell back into his old ways and even started dealing drugs, even to schoolkids (we didn’t know this was going on). The police and I think the FBI too, at the same time were engaging in a “sting” operation to stop drug dealers who were dealing at school playgrounds. They caught him red-handed dealing the drugs to the kids and arrested him.
He died in the jail, and it is believed that he committed suicide by banging his head
repeatedly against the concrete wall of the jail behind his bed.
I hope he didn’t go to hell, because I DO know that before he got back into drug-dealing, his life had fallen apart financially and he was wiped out and couldn’t take care of his own kids. I don’t condone what he did at all, but I do understand the despair that (partially) led him to start dealing again.
Love to all,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

Pray for your friend, but if he hurt himself out of remorse, there is a good chance that he did not die with an unrepented sin on his soul. Maybe his contrition was imperfect, but the likelihood is that he was contrite.

 

[EasterJoy]

If you continually report hearsay information without basis in fact on various other people in your life to your local PD, FBI etc, you are going to get a name with the police department. First of all, there is no such thing as anonymity. If someone is constantly calling the police, even from payphones, to report sundry gossip, the police might eventually take it in mind to figure out who that person is doing the calling.

Secondly, I know of specific situations, one is which a person confessed to my friend that they had done a specific crime, arson and she did call, asked that her name not be used and she was told that she would be in breach of the law if, having called, she chose not to testify. Since she was in knowledge of crime, she had to give her name and permit herself to be called to the stand if necessary. The arsonist was eventually convicted, he plea-bargained. But there was no ‘anonymous’ to it.

If you watch any kind of crime TV, ie “Wicked Attraction” et al, you will see this over and over, that people who call in with anonymous tips are all checked out by the police, because the police wonder why you might be interested in the crime at all and to check your veracity. You will never see a case where some anonymous tipster led the police to a criminal with valid information and was allowed to stay uninvolved if their part was pertinent, like being confessed to. Often perpetrators call the police on others to misdirect them for their own crimes, so calling in anonymously places you on the suspicious list immediately.

I know what I’m talking about here, but you are most welcome to try it your way.

I should probably suggest too, that if you are just reporting a sin, like maybe a woman is wearing a dress you think is too sexy to Mass, or a non-issue like you heard through gossip that some woman doesn’t always take her prescription medicine which is not illegal, or perhaps some higher-up in your church is having an affair (not a police issue), I can assure you that the police keep files on people who constantly call in for issues like that and eventually they may get around to dealing with it by charging you with harassing others and/or wasting their time.

Gotta add that this stuff is also a sin, falling under slander, gossip, lying etc. If you call and try to anonymously put the police on someone you are mad at, that is a sin, probably mortal.

Well, yes, you don’t report sins to the police, but only violations of the law. As for what kind of tips they want to hear or don’t want to be bothered with, you can ask about that when you call. They’ll tell you. I would imagine that the more serious the crime, the less particular they are about the quality of the lead. For petty crimes and misdemeanors, they probably are not interested in tips that do not come from direct knowledge. For murders, anything that might be of help would be of interest.

 

[michelleds]

If you watch any kind of crime TV, ie “Wicked Attraction” et al, you will see this over and over

Please don’t base anything on what you see on TV. I can’t speak for other fields of expertise, but the legal stuff on TV is fantasy.

Back to the OP.

If you have information about a crime, you should call and report it. the police will investigate accordingly. if you are worried that you might be involved in a crime, call an attorney who does criminal defense. they will have ads in the yellow pages under Attorney, Criminal. If you are a Mandated Reporter (teacher, nurse, social worker, etc) then you will already know what you are required to report and won’t be seeking advice on CAF.

If someone thinks that reporting “sins” to the police is necessary, then nothing anyone says on CAF is going to make one whit of difference to that person.

Finally, “hearsay” is a legal term of art, with a specific meaning within a court of law. although people use as a part of common speech, it is not being used accurately, including in this thread.

what you have is information. whether the information is credible or not depends on numerous factors.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Generally good advice given by the posters here.

Of course, there could be other factors.
For example, if a lady at church confessed to me that say,
three years ago, before she became a baptized Catholic,
she stole/shoplifted something like a gold necklace from a jewelry store,
but has since repented and given evidence of it,
I can tell you right now that I absolutely will NOT report her to the police.
I WILL, most definitely, encourage her to do all in her power to make restitution
to the offended party as part of her repentance, but my first obligation
in Christ is to my sisters and brothers in the faith, not to the secular state.
Now, YES, we have a moral obligation to obey laws that do not conflict
with God’s laws or moral principles. This is where conscience comes in.
I will not put a repentant person through the hell of being arrested, tried, and possibly
sent to one of our nations violence-ridden, rape and abuse filled so-called “correctional” facilities, where she could be seriously hurt and fall into despair and lose her faith
for something she has genuinely repented of. Especially if she expresses a willingness to make amends. She is MY sister in Christ , first and foremost, and I have a covenant-bond with her that I probably do not have with many of the cops or whoever. I will not endanger her soul. I regard this, in my conscience, as a matter of loyalty first to God’s people, then to the community second. If anyone disagrees, that is your perogative.
I will follow my conscience in this matter. Now, still, having said as much,
different offenses merit different responses. If a Christian comes to me (and he would be very FOOLISH to do so) and confesses to me that he is a repentant murderer, that puts me in a serious dilemma. While I believe that even murder can be forgiven, and rape, and armed robbery, people who deliberately commit these acts have crossed a “threshold,” I believe, where their penchant for endangering others is too great for them to not be reported and dealt with in some way.

Of course, I could possibly be wrong about THAT too,
so my advice is: if you are a repentant breaker of the Law, please DO NOT CONFESS THIS TO ME because it puts me (and other Christian laypeople) on the spot, so to speak.
If you need to confess the lawbreaking-sin, confess it first to the priest, who cannot and will not under any circumstances betray what you told him. NOR can he, EVER, require you to turn yourself in, not even as a penance nor as a condition of absolution.
. This has been discussed many times on these and other Catholic forums.
If you need to confess it, take it to the LORD and to Mary and the Saints in prayer. They are under no obligation, as are humans on earth generally, to report you.
In fact, the saints who know of your repentance being sincere, can pray to God to keep you out of all trouble, if your repentance is sincere. And God is not bound by civil laws to cause you to be discovered, either. He sovereignly can choose, knowing your repentance and sincerity, to protect you from all trouble out of His sheer Mercy.
He did it for murderers King David and King Manasseh and many, many others.
So take the confessions to God, Mary and the Saints. Please do not tell your brothers and sisters that you did something horrific, because then the State can accuse them of co-operating or conspiring with them, even though you did no such thing.
As for unrepentant worldlings, let’s say in a bar over beers, if one of them blabs to me that he rapes women or robs houses or mugs people, I will excuse myself, walk into the bathroom, get out my cellphone,
call the local sheriff, and tell him there is a self-confessed rapist (or whatever) sitting at the bar at the such and such club at such and such address. In a heartbeat.
Love to all,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[Jaypeeto4]

Generally good advice given by the posters here.

Of course, there could be other factors.
For example, if a lady at church confessed to me that say,
three years ago, before she became a baptized Catholic,
she stole/shoplifted something like a gold necklace from a jewelry store,
but has since repented and given evidence of it,
I can tell you right now that I absolutely will NOT report her to the police.
I WILL, most definitely, encourage her to do all in her power to make restitution
to the offended party as part of her repentance, but my first obligation
in Christ is to my sisters and brothers in the faith, not to the secular state.
Now, YES, we have a moral obligation to obey laws that do not conflict
with God’s laws or moral principles. This is where conscience comes in.
I will not put a repentant person through the hell of being arrested, tried, and possibly
sent to one of our nations violence-ridden, rape and abuse filled so-called “correctional” facilities, where she could be seriously hurt and fall into despair and lose her faith
for something she has genuinely repented of. Especially if she expresses a willingness to make amends. She is MY sister in Christ , first and foremost, and I have a covenant-bond with her that I probably do not have with many of the cops or whoever. I will not endanger her soul. I regard this, in my conscience, as a matter of loyalty first to God’s people, then to the community second. If anyone disagrees, that is your perogative.
I will follow my conscience in this matter. Now, still, having said as much,
different offenses merit different responses. If a Christian comes to me (and he would be very FOOLISH to do so) and confesses to me that he is a repentant murderer, that puts me in a serious dilemma. While I believe that even murder can be forgiven, and rape, and armed robbery, people who deliberately commit these acts have crossed a “threshold,” I believe, where their penchant for endangering others is too great for them to not be reported and dealt with in some way.

Of course, I could possibly be wrong about THAT too,
so my advice is: if you are a repentant breaker of the Law, please DO NOT CONFESS THIS TO ME because it puts me (and other Christian laypeople) on the spot, so to speak.
If you need to confess the lawbreaking-sin, confess it first to the priest, who cannot and will not under any circumstances betray what you told him. NOR can he, EVER, require you to turn yourself in, not even as a penance nor as a condition of absolution.
. This has been discussed many times on these and other Catholic forums.
If you need to confess it, take it to the LORD and to Mary and the Saints in prayer. They are under no obligation, as are humans on earth generally, to report you.
In fact, the saints who know of your repentance being sincere, can pray to God to keep you out of all trouble, if your repentance is sincere. And God is not bound by civil laws to cause you to be discovered, either. He sovereignly can choose, knowing your repentance and sincerity, to protect you from all trouble out of His sheer Mercy.
He did it for murderers King David and King Manasseh and many, many others.
So take the confessions to God, Mary and the Saints. Please do not tell your brothers and sisters that you did something horrific, because then the State can accuse them of co-operating or conspiring with them, even though you did no such thing.
As for unrepentant worldlings, let’s say in a bar over beers, if one of them blabs to me that he rapes women or robs houses or mugs people, I will excuse myself, walk into the bathroom, get out my cellphone,
call the local sheriff, and tell him there is a self-confessed rapist (or whatever) sitting at the bar at the such and such club at such and such address. In a heartbeat.
Love to all,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+

 

[divinefaith]

I think we would especially be obligated to report the offender who keeps committing the crimes for e.g. A thief who keeps stealing, drug dealer who keeps supplying drugs.

 

[divinefaith]

But yes, the Bible and Church say we must obey State laws (when they are not opposed to God’s laws). So we have to consider that and understand that we cannot cooperate in another person’s sins. I would say we need the advice and reflection from a priest or spiritual director in helping us determine what our moral obligations are and what should be done if we are to experience such a situation.

 

[Jaypeeto4]

**I think we would especially be obligated to report the offender who keeps committing the crimes for e.g. A thief who keeps stealing, drug dealer who keeps supplying drugs. **

I definitely agree with you regarding the above situation.
In my long post just above,
I was referring to not telling on a repentant person, most especially
a sister or brother in Christ - a baptized Christian who has repented and
whose sins have been more than covered
by the blood of Christ and with whom I am in (Christ’s) blood-covenant relationship.
And that doesn’t make me complicit in their sins, either, because they have repented and been absolved.
Still, as I wrote above in my post, if a sister or brother is an ex-Offender against civil law,
I would ask them NOT TO CONFESS SUCH THINGS TO ME OR ANY OF THEIR OTHER SISTERS AND BROTHERS IN THE CHURCH because this puts us “on the spot.”
If they need to talk about these things and tell them to someone, seriously tell them to God, Jesus, Mary and the Saints and Angels. They will gladly listen to any repentant person.
I kinda chuckled when a couple of posters above talked about people who call the police to report people for sinning (like for adultery and similar things) and how they don’t have to do that and shouldn’t. Actually, folks, Adultery is in many, many states STILL
considered a Crime and is as they say “on the books” as such. In decades long past, you could be fined or even locked up for it. Or publicly beaten or put in “stocks” or even branded (remember THE SCARLET LETTER?) The fact that the laws are rarely if ever enforced today doesn’t change the fact that they are still “laws” on the books, so if you have to report everybody you suspect of having done something illegal, then yes you are obligated to report them for adultery, too, because in many states it is still on the books.
If the state chooses not to enforce it, that is another matter. But in the case of a repentant Christian, I am not about to report him or her for adultery, either, even if it is on the books in my state. My first obligation, as their covenant brother, is to THEM and the state of their soul. I respect the Law of the Land immensely, and the teaching of the Church and the apostles. In the New Testament, Paul writes of many of the Christians having been ex-sodomites, ex-bandits, ex-theives, heck, ex-EVERYTHING evil. You never read him TELLING OTHER CHRISTIANS to turn these repentant people over to the magistrates. Even the man who was living in incest with his father’s wife, something so awful that Paul said even the pagans did not countenance or do such practices, Paul simply excommunicated him or told the Corinthians to excommunicate him (turn him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit could be saved on the Day of the LORD). When, in 2nd Corinthians, the man had repented of this great moral and social evil, Paul did not encourage the Church to get him in trouble with the authorities (and such incest is illegal and has been in most societies), but rather to forgive and welcome and comfort him because otherwise the repentant person would be overcome with sorrow caused by the Devil and, as Paul wrote, “we are not ignorant of his designs.”

 

[Blossoming]

I definitely agree with you regarding the above situation.
In my long post just above,
I was referring to not telling on a repentant person, most especially
a sister or brother in Christ - a baptized Christian who has repented and
whose sins have been more than covered
by the blood of Christ and with whom I am in (Christ’s) blood-covenant relationship.
And that doesn’t make me complicit in their sins, either, because they have repented and been absolved.
Still, as I wrote above in my post, if a sister or brother is an ex-Offender against civil law,
I would ask them NOT TO CONFESS SUCH THINGS TO ME OR ANY OF THEIR OTHER SISTERS AND BROTHERS IN THE CHURCH because this puts us “on the spot.”
If they need to talk about these things and tell them to someone, seriously tell them to God, Jesus, Mary and the Saints and Angels. They will gladly listen to any repentant person.
I kinda chuckled when a couple of posters above talked about people who call the police to report people for sinning (like for adultery and similar things) and how they don’t have to do that and shouldn’t. Actually, folks, Adultery is in many, many states STILL
considered a Crime and is as they say “on the books” as such. In decades long past, you could be fined or even locked up for it. Or publicly beaten or put in “stocks” or even branded (remember THE SCARLET LETTER?) The fact that the laws are rarely if ever enforced today doesn’t change the fact that they are still “laws” on the books, so if you have to report everybody you suspect of having done something illegal, then yes you are obligated to report them for adultery, too, because in many states it is still on the books.
If the state chooses not to enforce it, that is another matter. But in the case of a repentant Christian, I am not about to report him or her for adultery, either, even if it is on the books in my state. My first obligation, as their covenant brother, is to THEM and the state of their soul. I respect the Law of the Land immensely, and the teaching of the Church and the apostles. In the New Testament, Paul writes of many of the Christians having been ex-sodomites, ex-bandits, ex-theives, heck, ex-EVERYTHING evil. You never read him TELLING OTHER CHRISTIANS to turn these repentant people over to the magistrates. Even the man who was living in incest with his father’s wife, something so awful that Paul said even the pagans did not countenance or do such practices, Paul simply excommunicated him or told the Corinthians to excommunicate him (turn him over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit could be saved on the Day of the LORD). When, in 2nd Corinthians, the man had repented of this great moral and social evil, Paul did not encourage the Church to get him in trouble with the authorities (and such incest is illegal and has been in most societies), but rather to forgive and welcome and comfort him because otherwise the repentant person would be overcome with sorrow caused by the Devil and, as Paul wrote, “we are not ignorant of his designs.”

Voice of reason. So pleasant. God bless, have a neat day.