E
estesbob
Guest
Why should she let religious bigotry drive her out of her job? Evidently the Pope found her actions admirable, as do I
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
Absolutely a brave woman would have. She wanted to have her cake and eat it, too.A brave woman would have resigned. She would have said, “I cannot, in good conscience, place my name in official endorsement on these certificates. I cannot fulfill the responsibilities I was sworn to perform. Therefore I resign from the office of <county clerk, whatever>.”
She would have had job offers and offers of support and help before the door closed behind her.
O
on_the_hill
Guest
Source?BTW-the Vatican Confirmed the meeting took place.
I don’t disagree with the Pope.
E
estesbob
Guest
You said he was “used” Isnt that disagreeing with his actions?Source?
I don’t disagree with the Pope.
nytimes.com/2015/09/30/us/county-clerk-kim-davis-who-denied-gay-couples-visited-pope.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
E
estesbob
Guest
So when faced with religious bigotry people should quit their jobs?Absolutely a brave woman would have. She wanted to have her cake and eat it, too.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
If they have integrity, yes. If they don’t, no. That is my opinion. I would have quit and sought other employment. And I certainly wouldn’t have told my subordinates what they could and could not do or altered forms so as to make some marriages illegal.So when faced with religious bigotry people should quit their jobs?
O
on_the_hill
Guest
She wasn’t faced with religious bigotry. And if you cannot perform your job for whatever reason, you should quitSo when faced with religious bigotry people should quit their jobs?
E
estesbob
Guest
So when someone asks me to do a tax return that has income from an abortion facility I should shut down my business rather than just refuse to do the return? I think not. I don’t think we need to cede either the business world or public service to the amoral and immoral. Obviously the Pope agreesIf they have integrity, yes. If they don’t, no. That is my opinion. I would have quit and sought other employment. And I certainly wouldn’t have told my subordinates what they could and could not do or altered forms so as to make some marriages illegal.
T
The_Murray
Guest
Short answer: If you feel that it violates your conscience, yes.So when someone asks me to do a tax return that has income from an abortion facility I should shut down my business rather than just refuse to do the return? I think not. I don’t think we need to cede either the business world or public service to the amoral and immoral. Obviously the Pope agrees
Would you refuse to do a tax return for a divorce attorney?
Again, this argument is a slippery slope.
If a muslim decides not to do tax returns for women because he believes their place is at the home do we also defend it? That is a matter of morality for some.
Gay marriage is a constitutional right. Plain and simple, no if and’s or but’s. It is the law. In terms of secular law, that is clear. Kim Davis works for the government and took an oath to obey the constitution (which now includes by definition gay marriage protection and the right to get married). She is bound to issue the license. If you worked for the government business bureau and somebody wanted to open an abortion clinic, you are bound to do so. Can’t do it? Quit.
N
nodito
Guest
This is absolutely contrary to justice and reason. The effect your approach could have would be to remove people of conscience from just about every imaginable occupation. We would have no doctors, because you would ask that anyone who would refuse to perform or refer for abortions to quit. We’d have no lawyers or pharmacists either. We need people of faith and conscience in the workforce, and you don’t demonstrate integrity by removing yourself from a position when higher ups are demanding that you do something immoral, you show weakness.If they have integrity, yes. If they don’t, no. That is my opinion. I would have quit and sought other employment. And I certainly wouldn’t have told my subordinates what they could and could not do or altered forms so as to make some marriages illegal.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
I was engaged to a Muslim once before I decided our religions could NEVER get along and neither of us was going to convert. A devout Muslim would DEFINITELY refuse to do the tax returns of a woman. He would “conscientiously object.” And I agree with Pope Francis, that is his right.Short answer, yes.
Would you refuse to do a tax return for a divorce attorney?
Again, this argument is a slippery slope.
If a muslim decides not to do tax returns for women because he believes their place is at the home do we also defend it? That is a matter of morality for some.
I agree with you. A Catholic should refuse to do the tax returns of an abortion doctor. I have had three jobs. Book editor/reviewer, owned a PR agency, and now theology instructor at a college. When I owned a PR agency I did work mostly for doctors, dentists, and clinics. Abortion clinics contacted me wanting me to do PR as did doctors who performed abortions. I said, “No, my religion, and I, do not condone abortion, but thank you for thinking of me.”
If Kim Davis had integrity she would have said, “I find I cannot work here any longer.” No media circus, which she seems to love.
E
estesbob
Guest
No. But then I decide my religious convictions., not anyone elseShort answer: If you feel that it violates your conscience, yes.
Would you refuse to do a tax return for a divorce attorney?
Again, this argument is a slippery slope.
If a muslim decides not to do tax returns for women because he believes their place is at the home do we also defend it? That is a matter of morality for some.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
No, no need to shut down your business. Just refuse to work for abortionists. That’s what I did.So when someone asks me to do a tax return that has income from an abortion facility I should shut down my business rather than just refuse to do the return? I think not. I don’t think we need to cede either the business world or public service to the amoral and immoral. Obviously the Pope agrees
It’s not at all obvious to me that the Pope agrees. I don’t believe for a second he knows what an opportunist Kim Davis is.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
So you don’t follow the teachings of the Magisterium?No. But then I decide my religious convictions., not anyone else
E
estesbob
Guest
Sci he was duped? And you base that on what?No, no need to shut down your business. Just refuse to work for abortionists. That’s what I did.
It’s not at all obvious to me that the Pope agrees. I don’t believe for a second he knows what an opportunist Kim Davis is.
T
The_Murray
Guest
“We would have no doctors, because you would ask that anyone who would refuse to perform or refer for abortions to quit.”This is absolutely contrary to justice and reason. The effect your approach could have would be to remove people of conscience from just about every imaginable occupation. We would have no doctors, because you would ask that anyone who would refuse to perform or refer for abortions to quit. We’d have no lawyers or pharmacists either. We need people of faith and conscience in the workforce, and you don’t demonstrate integrity by removing yourself from a position when higher ups are demanding that you do something immoral, you show weakness.
Doctor’s are not legally obligated to do so. Very simply. If they were, whole different ball game.
The only way they are required to perform an abortion is if it is in their job description, in which case, they weren’t very moral to begin with. A doctor cannot refuse a patient for any reason fitting their job description. Say: If a christian refused to treat a gay of a life threatening injury. They are not protected. It is in their description. But again, a Doctor’s role and required tasks are laid out and agreed to before they sign on. If that included abortion, a moral person is obligated to not sign.
L
Lily_Bernans
Guest
Absolutely right, Murray. I know many doctors who would NEVER perform an abortion. In fact, I would say the great majority of them will not.“We would have no doctors, because you would ask that anyone who would refuse to perform or refer for abortions to quit.”
Doctor’s are not legally obligated to do so. Very simply. If they were, whole different ball game.
The only way they are required to perform an abortion is if it is in their job description, in which case, they weren’t very moral to begin with. A doctor cannot refuse a patient for any reason fitting their job description. Say: If a christian refused to treat a gay of a life threatening injury. They are not protected. It is in their description. But again, a Doctor’s role and required tasks are laid out and agreed to before they sign on. If that included abortion, and moral person is obligated to not sign.
N
nodito
Guest
I’m in the US, but in Canada doctors are required to refer for abortions.“We would have no doctors, because you would ask that anyone who would refuse to perform or refer for abortions to quit.”
Doctor’s are not legally obligated to do so. Very simply. If they were, whole different ball game.
Suppose the law changes. Suppose the US goes the way of Canada and requires that all doctors provide or refer for abortions. Should all pro-life doctors just up and quit, because now it’s part of their job description? Would such a law preclude hundred of pro-life med students from ever finding work? Or should we perhaps encourage them to change the system and resist unjust laws from within?
N
nodito
Guest
How is this different from a person just refusing to sign what they consider to be an immoral document?No, no need to shut down your business. Just refuse to work for abortionists. That’s what I did.
N
nodito
Guest
But if some day required by their place of employment or the government, you think it shows more integrity if they all quit their jobs?Absolutely right, Murray. I know many doctors who would NEVER perform an abortion. In fact, I would say the great majority of them will not.
- Status
- Not open for further replies.