REPOST: Is there another world that guides and controls our world?

[Deus_tecum]

The first wheel was square, but over time the corners rounded off from wear, and we have never looked back since.

 

[christofirst]

Taking a good look around you and see all the unique items that need to be mass produced. There should be a mechanical engineer on every street corner with this huge, huge wit. But where are they hiding? Do you know of anyone?

As a humble electrician, I’ve worked in plants where items are mass produced. Once I even worked at Budweiser Brewery on a conveyor system. The beer doesn’t just fall from the sky. Really, there are big, giant vats, welded out of metal, and heating coils and refrigeration units. Its just a bunch of machines; motors, wheels, cogs, metal parts, nuts and bolts. Every little thing had to be engineered at some point in time - not all at once! There are plenty of mechanical engineers to go around.

What’s really bothering you? You may not be a Thomas Edison, or know anyone like him, but he was a real guy back in the day, who had a knack for inventing things, and there are lots of people like him, just not so famous.

 

[vsedriver]

So, can anybody design the process and machines for mass produced toothpicks!?! Does anybody know of someone who has designed the process and machines for mass producing everyday products like light bulbs, pencils and ball point pens, paper, parts for printers, DVDs, CPUs, scotch tape, silverware, batteries, parts for digital clocks, needles, fabrics, parts for cell phones, glass, parts for computer screens, tons of specialized parts for medical equipment, transistors etc, etc. Take a close look around you and see the complexity of all the mass produced products that need designing and building.

yes, I know people who do this. They are called “inventors”. They think of something that no one else has and then they work to make it work. Or they are trying to make one thing and find out they’ve made something else all together.

People like, Archimedes, Da Vinci, Franklin, Edison, Tesla, Eli Whitney, Steve Jobs…

Making a machine to make another machine is not all that hard once you have the concept of machine manufacturing and assembly line production.

Nothing is more complex than the human brain so why be so suprised by the complexity of our society?

 

[Beryllos]

yes, I know people who do this. They are called “inventors”.

There are also people called “project leaders,” people with a knack for executing complex projects with a close-knit team of experts and skilled workers. Then there must be good “managers” who coordinate a lot of projects according to a larger plan, for example, to build a computer chip fabrication plant.

 

[Robert_Sock]

yes, I know people who do this. They are called “inventors”. They think of something that no one else has and then they work to make it work. Or they are trying to make one thing and find out they’ve made something else all together.

People like, Archimedes, Da Vinci, Franklin, Edison, Tesla, Eli Whitney, Steve Jobs…

Making a machine to make another machine is not all that hard once you have the concept of machine manufacturing and assembly line production.

Nothing is more complex than the human brain so why be so suprised by the complexity of our society?

Do you know of somebody who can design and build the machinery for the the mass production of toothpicks?

 

[Beryllos]

Hey, everyone, check out this really cool video on mass production of toothpicks:
How It’s Made: Toothpicks (YouTube)

 

[Beryllos]

Do you know of somebody who can design and build the machinery for the the mass production of toothpicks?

I found it! The man who first invented the type of machinery which is used today for mass production of toothpicks was Benjamin Franklin Sturtevant (1833-1890). His machinery actually made wooden shoe pegs, but another entrepreneur, Charles Forster, envisioned its application to toothpicks. With Sturtevant’s reluctant assistance, Forster and others refined the technology in the 1860s. Initially there was not much demand for wooden toothpicks, so Forster went to work building both factories and a large market to keep those factories busy.

There is a fascinating book on this subject:
The Toothpick: Technology and Culture, by Henry Petroski*(Amazon product listing)*
The author briefly summarizes the book here in The American (“The Online Magazine of the American Enterprise Institute”):
The Glorious Toothpick, by Henry Petroski*(The American article)*

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Yes, all knowledge and wisdom comes from God, but to whom does God impart this knowledge to? What is their IQ. Do you know of a single person who has this sort of wit? Why is this sort of knowledge hidden from our sight?

No, I do not believe that aliens create these things.

The problem here is that you don’t have the knowledge, and so you assume that no one else does either. That I do not understand how to do something does not mean that it is not understandable.

Movies on a hard drive, for example, is extremely simple conceptually (after acquiring a basic understanding of electromagnetism, which most people could do but don’t): a hard drive is divided into “sectors” that are magnetized groups of atoms. Apply a small magnetic field to one of these groups, and its poles will align with it. When you turn the field off, the pole axis will decay somewhat, but will still favor where it was put to last (imagine over bending a metal clothes hangar and letting go - it won’t stay exactly at the furthest point you brought it to, but neither will it completely straighten out by itself). Using this technique, you can write + and - (1 and 0) to a disk of magnetized sectors, and you can read these sectors by using magnetic properties as well.

After that, it’s just a matter of coding and precision control of the arm. We didn’t magically learn from some other source how to be good at these things, we’ve practiced and practiced. This is why hard drive sizes are getting larger and larger: we can make smaller and smaller sectors and manipulate them without messing up nearby sectors, because we’re getting better and better at really small movements.

I personally do not know how solid state memory works, but this is because I’ve never bothered to figure it out (much like I assume that most people who don’t know how hard drives work don’t know so because they never cared to find out). But every time I take some piece of technology I don’t understand and investigate it, I find that it makes sense on every level that I bother to examine.

And this is where I find a disagreement with you. We can study history. We can map the advancements. They all make sense. And so my approach to a technology I don’t understand is to say “that’s complicated, I don’t understand it now, but a cursory glance at what happend shows where such understanding could/did come from,” whereas you are saying “that’s complicated, I don’t understand it now, I don’t think I could have come up with it, so no human could have, so the knowledge must have come from some other source.” I see no justification for that at all, it seems to be assuming that the ignorance you have (and I don’t use this as an insult - it is not a bad thing to not understand that which you have no reason to understand and we are all ignorant of much) is a general thing rather than specific to you.

To your original question: I do not at this time know how to mass produce toothpicks, but I am confident that given enough time and resources I could figure it out (for some similar projects, and given my current level of knowledge, this necessary time may be longer than I would be alive, but that’s not a problem - others could pick up where I left off.). If, as is true in the real world, I could build off of others’ knowledge and recruit help from other people, it would take considerably less time and resources.

I find it much less reasonable to assume that our knowledge must come from an exterior source than that we figured out a bunch of stuff that makes sense anyway.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I found it! The man who first invented the type of machinery which is used today for mass production of toothpicks was Benjamin Franklin Sturtevant (1833-1890). His machinery actually made wooden shoe pegs, but another entrepreneur, Charles Forster, envisioned its application to toothpicks. With Sturtevant’s reluctant assistance, Forster and others refined the technology in the 1860s. Initially there was not much demand for wooden toothpicks, so Forster went to work building both factories and a large market to keep those factories busy.

There is a fascinating book on this subject:
(Amazon product listing) The Toothpick: Technology and Culture, by Henry Petroski
The author briefly summarizes the book here in The American (“The Online Magazine of the American Enterprise Institute”):
(The American article) The Glorious Toothpick, by Henry Petroski

Yes, and I have pictures of some of those old-fashioned machines (see attached image), but it’s hardly a modern machine that’s able to spit out thousands of boxes per minute. How many boxes did the old-fashioned machines spit out? In our modern era, again, there is no room for trial and error given how fast technology has advanced over the past 150 years.

 

[christofirst]

Yes, and I have pictures of some of those old-fashioned machines (see attached image), but it’s hardly a modern machine that’s able to spit out thousands of boxes per minute. How many boxes did the old-fashioned machines spit out? In our modern era, again, there is no room for trial and error given how fast technology has advanced over the past 150 years.

As technology is refined, there is less need for trial and error. Still, “mistakes” are made, and the wise inventor (or person) learns from these mistakes. But there is no need to reinvent the wheel every time a new project is undertaken. We learn from, and build on, experience. Still, if we don’t happen to be on the vanguard of change, we might feel left behind, wondering how it all happened. Read “Future Shock”, by Alvin Toffler.

 

[Robert_Sock]

As technology is refined, there is less need for trial and error. Still, “mistakes” are made, and the wise inventor (or person) learns from these mistakes. But there is no need to reinvent the wheel every time a new project is undertaken. We learn from, and build on, experience. Still, if we don’t happen to be on the vanguard of change, we might feel left behind, wondering how it all happened. Read “Future Shock”, by Alvin Toffler.

But these modern machines are usually one of a kind that requires new wit to produce. Looking at an old fashioned toothpick making machine, for example, will gain you little in designing a new, modern machine.

 

[davidv]

But these modern machines are usually one of a kind that requires new wit to produce. Looking at an old fashioned toothpick making machine, for example, will gain you little in designing a new, modern machine.

Where are you getting these ideas? The fact is, most modern machines are not one of a kind.

I believe you claim in the first sentence is not supported by the evidence. New wit in not required. Existing wit need only be applied in new ways.

 

[Cristiano]

But these modern machines are usually one of a kind that requires new wit to producee.

Do you realize that the technique that is used to put billions of transistors in a tiny silicon chip that is 0.25"x0.25" was initially developed in 1796?

Do you know how that technique has been improved? It has been done through the use of a tool developed in the 1620’s.

 

[Robert_Sock]

**Do you realize that the technique that is used to put billions of transistors in a tiny silicon chip that is 0.25"x0.25" was initially developed in 1796?
**
Do you know how that technique has been improved? It has been done through the use of a tool developed in the 1620’s.

I do not follow you here. How so, if I might ask?

 

[Robert_Sock]

Where are you getting these ideas? The fact is, most modern machines are not one of a kind.

I believe you claim in the first sentence is not supported by the evidence. New wit in not required. Existing wit need only be applied in new ways.

Are you trying to say that a toothpick making machine can be used to, say, make light bulbs?

And who has this wit, that’s my question? You’re average mechanical engineer?

 

[dshix]

This is ludicrous.

I do not follow you here. How so, if I might ask?

What is unclear? Are you unable to comprehend the words you read? Is it a foreign idea to you that a person with an intellect is capable of drawing on previous research and discoveries to make his own inventions?

Are you trying to say that a toothpick making machine can be used to, say, make light bulbs?

And who has this wit, that’s my question? You’re average mechanical engineer?

Your first sentence is putting words into mouth and is completely ludicrous. I know that you (being a human being with an intellect) know the answer.

As for your second sentence, see Post #47.

It is possible to discover (by less than two minutes of research) who invented every major technology we use today. What more are you asking for? What do you not understand?

 

[Beryllos]

… And who has this wit, that’s my question? You’re average mechanical engineer?

Perhaps a better-than-average mechanical engineer.

You seem to believe that no person alive has more technological understanding and imagination than you have. In fact, there are engineers and scientists, and project leaders and managers, who are extremely bright and hard working, and they are developing today’s and tomorrow’s technology.

Your position perfectly illustrates Clarke’s Third Law:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
What you don’t understand must be accomplished by magic, or “another world.”

 

[Robert_Sock]

This is ludicrous.

What is unclear? Are you unable to comprehend the words you read? Is it a foreign idea to you that a person with an intellect is capable of drawing on previous research and discoveries to make his own inventions?

You sound a little upset. Why?

My point is that you cannot draw too much from previous research and discoveries when the machines are relatively unique; a modern toothpick machine will have little to offer somebody who task it is to create, say, a light bulb machine.

Your first sentence is putting words into mouth and is completely ludicrous. I know that you (being a human being with an intellect) know the answer.

As for your second sentence, see Post #47.

It is possible to discover (by less than two minutes of research) who invented every major technology we use today. What more are you asking for? What do you not understand?

We’re not talking about who invented each technology, but rather, who designed the production process and machinery for each and every item that you see around you. Every plastic knob, for example, requires it’s own plastic injection mold. Every LED bulb requires its own machine and each filament of each LED light bulb requires its own unique machine. Each wire on the bulb requires its own machine. That’s a lot of machines for just one little unique household item.

Who invented the production process for manufacturing the USB cable for computers?

Who invented the production process for your relatively unique alarm clock? How many unique little items are in that clock? How did your alarm clock get assembled? Multiply that by every unique product you see and you should see the picture of what I’m trying to convey.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Perhaps a better-than-average mechanical engineer.

You seem to believe that no person alive has more technological understanding and imagination than you have. In fact, there are engineers and scientists, and project leaders and managers, who are extremely bright and hard working, and they are developing today’s and tomorrow’s technology.

Your position perfectly illustrates Clarke’s Third Law:
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
What you don’t understand must be accomplished by magic, or “another world.”

What is the non-verbal IQ of these people? My non-verbal IQ is more than 3 standard deviations above the means and I do not begin to possess the the wit necessary to design a modern toothpick making machine.

 

[Beryllos]

Who invented the production process for your relatively unique alarm clock? How many unique little items are in that clock? How did your alarm clock get assembled? Multiply that by every unique product you see and you should see the picture of what I’m trying to convey.

Perhaps you could be more clear about what you are trying to convey. The above paragraph merely points out that you personally cannot fathom modern manufacturing processes. That is not a proof that humans cannot work together to do such things.

The title of this thread asks whether there is “another world that guides and controls our world.” I am willing to consider and discuss that.

How would that solve the difficulty which you describe? How would another world enable the mass production of consumer goods?

I asked earlier “By what means or mechanism would the other world secretly guide and control our world?”

Is it by thought control? Do they plant these advanced technological ideas into our minds?

Do they have secret agents working in our factories, telling the workers how to build the stuff we can’t figure out?

Do they send us ready-made machinery so we can just plug it in and manufacture stuff?

When their equipment breaks down or malfunctions, do they send a service tech to fix it, do they tell us how to fix it, or do we have to figure it out for ourselves?

Are they also involved in the procurement and refinement of raw materials? How do we go from petroleum to advanced fuels and plastics, from minerals to advanced metal, glass, and semiconductors?

Did they tell us that birch is the best wood for making toothpicks?

Please explain how you envision this guidance and control works.