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NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
The latter two are causes of the first. Debt leads to lack of development which leads to a short food supply.
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rlg94086
Guest
Thanks, I found it by googling already. I also found plenty of arguments against the USCCB and their own guide. I guess I will have to “follow my conscience” and go with the Catholic Answers guide, as I believe it is better.
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NewUlm1976_2000
Guest
Peronsally, I find the CA guide to be much too narrowly focused and unrepresentative of how to approach voting, it appears to be much more partisan towards one party’s platform.Thanks, I found it by googling already. I also found plenty of arguments against the USCCB and their own guide. I guess I will have to “follow my conscience” and go with the Catholic Answers guide, as I believe it is better.
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rlg94086
Guest
Are you sure these are “beliefs you already hold” and you aren’t just “just voting with an alleged Catholic conscience as dictated by a male hierarchy.” Your answers sound suspiciously orthodox!
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rlg94086
Guest
The fact that one of the major partys’ platform is clearly against abortion, euthenasia, embryonic stem cell research, gay marriage, etc. is not Catholic Answers’ fault. I read up on the CA posts in 2004/2005 on this subject after your post, and I found that “partisan” Karl Keating didn’t vote for Bush in 2004 (or Kerry).
I think the guide just puts priorities where they should be. As we have discussed on this thread. Other important Catholic issues - immigration, poverty, wages - can be answered in a valid Catholic manor from either of the major parties. We can disagree on what government’s role should be in social issues. However, when it comes to sanctioning or banning the willful destruction of innocent life, or homosexual marriage; there only seems to be one way of handling these from a Catholic standpoint.
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melensdad
Guest
Oh I’m sorry. Forgive me for looking to the core of some of our problems in society, applying a moral foundation to those issues and then coming up with positions on which I choose not to compromiseAre you sure these are “beliefs you already hold” and you aren’t just “just voting with an alleged Catholic conscience as dictated by a male hierarchy.” Your answers sound suspiciously orthodox!
We can look at all sorts of other issues. Take poverty, or the working poor. Do we apply a band-aid solution like raising minimum wage and then patting ourselves on the back for doing good? Or do we look at the underlying issue and work our way up from there? I prefer the latter approach.
Start out with some of the reasons why people are poor or working poor.
- Destruction of family
- Lack of jobs in the area
- Lack of education
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rlg94086
Guest
Oh I’m sorry. Forgive me for looking to the core of some of our problems in society, applying a moral foundation to those issues and then coming up with positions on which I choose not to compromise
We can look at all sorts of other issues. Take poverty, or the working poor. Do we apply a band-aid solution like raising minimum wage and then patting ourselves on the back for doing good? Or do we look at the underlying issue and work our way up from there? I prefer the latter approach.
Start out with some of the reasons why people are poor or working poor.
- Destruction of family
- Lack of jobs in the area
- Lack of education
Certainly there are many other reasons. Now we could raise the minimum wage nationally and that would do nothing in real terms, but it is popular, and often chases jobs out of the country. We could look at the communities and create “enterprise zones” to attract businesses in blighted areas so that jobs would be available. We could offer child care assistance that provides “scaled back” assistance over time, but provides a hand up while someone is getting themselves started. We could provide additional education that is targeted to the community and focuses on the real needs, be they through offering charter schools, private school vouchers, adult education, etc. And certainly community based responsibility programs like Big Brother should be supported, but also should be family supportive programs to help prevent family breakup in the first place. Some of that is to make it harder to get married and harder to get divorced (no-fault divorce), and then there is the whole issue of unwed mothers and illegitimate children. Again we go back to personal responsibility teaching and (dare I say) moral upbringing. At very least we should show kids graphically the consequences of illegitimate “free sex” in terms of disease, poverty, and the reality of single parenthood.
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melensdad
Guest
Hey, tend to rant on sometime.
But I find it interesting that many of the most important and effective ways to deal with things like poverty are NOT EVEN NATIONAL issues. I believe that education is an issue that is closely linked to poverty, but by our laws, education is not a national issue. And in fact, it is clearly as “state’s rights” issue and the states and localities actually control the vast majority of not only the budgets but the regulations and the national government is, in many ways, forbidden by law, from becoming too involved. So someone can run on a national level as “the education” candidate but the reality is that person will NOT be able to impact many things at the local level.
There is ample evidence that vouchers work, but plenty of debate over how to administer those. In any case that is a state/local issue. There is ample evidence that charter schools can be a benefit if properly run. A government monopoly on education often leads to everyone in an area getting a poor education!
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vern_humphrey
Guest
No, debt **doesn’t **lead to lack of development. The United States has large debt, but isn’t under-developed.
Most people on this forum have debt – mortgages, car loans, a small balance on their credit cards, but they aren’t starving.
Most businesses have debt – but they aren’t starving.
What leads to debt and lack of development **and **starvation is brutal, corrupt dictatorships.
The USCCB pamphlet is confusinag and confused – we cannot solve problems unless we can clearly state them and analyze them.
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melensdad
Guest
While I agree with you, I think there is more too it. Its not JUST brutal, corrupt dictatorships but it is often meddlesome well intentioned politicians within a democracy that causes it too.
I love to look at Chicago and Cook County, Illinois. Each layers tax over tax and burden over burden. The reality is that in many of the neighborhoods where Chicago borders any other city the neighborhoods are blighted and under developed. Why? Because literally a block or two away is a lower tax, lower regulation district in a different city. So there are literally businesses that spring up on the far side of the city line and blocks of blight before you get there. A similar, albeit less drastic thing occurs where Cook County borders Will County (far south) or DuPage County (far west) and businesses and communities are growing rapidly just beyond the borders of Cook County.
So large parts of Cook County languish because they have piled up taxes to provide greater services, and then inside of Cook County is Chicago which piles even higher taxes and regulations. There are city inspectors, city taxes, county inspector and county taxes. There are city and county and state licenses and each one simply raises the cost of entry for a business. “Enterprise Zones” can lower the cost of entry and bolster neighborhoods in need, but these are typically state/local issues so they don’t make the national political headlines, and when embraced, then politicians essentially have to admit that their taxes and programs were the underlying causes of the problems that forced the creation of the enterprise zone!
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rlg94086
Guest
I agree with you, in theory, but in reality the branches of the federal government have taken more and more control into their hands. What should be local/state issues have been taken over by Congress.
Politically, I am a Federalist at heart. From a Catholic viewpoint, I believe in subsidiarity (CCC 1883-1885, 1894). Basically, this means “the more local the better.” I tend to be a little more “liberal” on a local level, but I believe strongly in states’ rights and within my state I believe in allowing local communities to run their own affairs. I also believe strongly in personal responsibility.
What I would like to see is the Republican Party returning more to its core principles, rather than trying to compete with the Democrats for who can give away the most to the most people.
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mary_bobo
Guest
Oh I’m sorry. Forgive me for looking to the core of some of our problems in society, applying a moral foundation to those issues and then coming up with positions on which I choose not to compromise
We can look at all sorts of other issues. Take poverty, or the working poor. Do we apply a band-aid solution like raising minimum wage and then patting ourselves on the back for doing good? Or do we look at the underlying issue and work our way up from there? I prefer the latter approach.
Start out with some of the reasons why people are poor or working poor.
Certainly there are many other reasons. Now we could raise the minimum wage nationally and that would do nothing in real terms, but it is popular, and often chases jobs out of the country. We could look at the communities and create “enterprise zones” to attract businesses in blighted areas so that jobs would be available. We could offer child care assistance that provides “scaled back” assistance over time, but provides a hand up while someone is getting themselves started. We could provide additional education that is targeted to the community and focuses on the real needs, be they through offering charter schools, private school vouchers, adult education, etc. And certainly community based responsibility programs like Big Brother should be supported, but also should be family supportive programs to help prevent family breakup in the first place. Some of that is to make it harder to get married and harder to get divorced (no-fault divorce), and then there is the whole issue of unwed mothers and illegitimate children. Again we go back to personal responsibility teaching and (dare I say) moral upbringing. At very least we should show kids graphically the consequences of illegitimate “free sex” in terms of disease, poverty, and the reality of single parenthood.
- Destruction of family
- Lack of jobs in the area
- Lack of education
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melensdad
Guest
What I see is that one party believes in much of what the Catholic Church teaches, and the other party does not support the beliefs of our faith. I don’t consider that statement to be a “partisan” statement, but it is a statement of factual information.
BASED ON THE NATIONAL PARTY PLATFORMS of the two major political parties, and based on some critical Catholic issues, here is what I see. Individual politicians may stray from the party platform, but the party platform is what most in the party support.
Now the list of 5 issues below are some of my “hot button” issues, and I believe they are also considered major issues in our Church as well. Certainly anyone who wanted to could look up other issues they have and see if there are some “black & white” differences between the two parties and then compare those to the official views and teachings of the Church.
**Abortion: Catholics oppose
**
- Democrats support, in direct contradiction to our Church
- Republicans oppose, in agreement with our Church
- Democrats support, in direct contradiction to our Church
- Republicans oppose, in agreement with our Church
- Democrats support, in direct contradiction to our Church
- Republicans oppose , in agreement with our Church
- Democrats support, in direct contradiction to our Church
- Republicans oppose, in agreement with our Church
- Democrats: ? – see below –
- Republicans oppose, in agreement with our Church
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scottm
Guest
:tiphat: :extrahappy: If we voted our conscience instead of letting the news media tell us who is winning, we’d get good people in office.
In the meantime, because almost all of the otherwise intelligent and good people vote only for a person chosen by the news media as a “front runner,” we will instead continue to have bad leaders.
Don’t ever tell me I’m wasting my vote when I ignore the news media and vote my conscience. Jesus would have ignored the media and ignored political labels and simply voted for the righteous candidate. Come to think of it, that is EXACTLY how God chose King David!
Whoa! Dude!
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scottm
Guest
Agreed, but, query, how do Republicans as a group actually vote? Collectively do they vote according to their platform, or do they vote according to the Dem Party’s stated principles?
The answer is that collectively they tend toward the Dem Party’s principles.
I agree that those are important issues, but, consider that supposedly pro-life Republic Presidents nominated Supreme Court Justices who voted, in their case decisions, to continue abortion.
I have no faith in the Republican Party to do what is right. History proves them to be hypocritical.
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melensdad
Guest
That will vary considerably based on the actual wording of the bill and what else is included in the bill, but how much worse would it be if the Democrats got their way since they OPENLY OPPOSE what we believe in!Agreed, but, query, how do Republicans as a group actually vote? Collectively do they vote according to their platform, or do they vote according to the Dem Party’s stated principles?
The answer is that collectively they tend toward the Dem Party’s principles.
And realize that the “abortion” litmus test is a reasonably new phenomena being applied to SOCUS nominees. But again, if you directly support the party that directly opposes your ideology, you will get exactly what you do not want!. . .consider that supposedly pro-life Republic Presidents nominated Supreme Court Justices who voted, in their case decisions, to continue abortion.
I have very little faith in the Republican party since GB1 came to power and none since GB2. But what I do have faith in is that the Democratic party is in direct opposition to the teachings of our Church.
So I guess you and I are in agreement. Neither of us trusts the Republicans to do what is right, but the fact of the matter is that I know the Democrats will do what is wrong. Are you voting for people who admit they want abortions legal? Who admit they want embryonic stem cell research? Who admit they want to destroy the sanctity of marriage? Who admit they support euthanasia? And who probably support human cloning?
If so, then I wonder if you consider yourself Catholic?
Oh wait, I just looked at your profile. According to your profile you are NOT a Catholic. That explains some things.
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mpb74
Guest
Just listened to a Peter Kreeft MP3
He said, in essence
America is a strong free country just like ancient Israel
America is the most religious country in the world Just like ancient Israel
In America the Church is large and rich and free just like ancient Israel
My Opinion follows ( Not from Mr. Kreeft)
I think he is correct, and I think America will suffer just like ancient Israel, not so much because of what we do but because of what we don’t do. Too many vote for parties and ideologies that have nothing to do with sanctity. Too many, including many older and otherwise religious people vote their pocketbook. The powers that be have many Americans choosing sides as if political leadership were a sport. There a few people left who do and vote what is right under all circumstances. No matter what. That is the call of faith, conciense, and decensy. We know what’s right but we don’t get it done. Despite Our wonderful military people and their long suffering families, our incredible technology and unprecedented freedom we are rotting from within. We the people of this nation have let it rot from neglect and self interest. God may pick us back up eventually but not until we lose much of what we were. We are still the last best hope, but I have lost most of my faith in us, and myself, and hope is about all we have left. Just my opinion, Dan
He said, in essence
America is a strong free country just like ancient Israel
America is the most religious country in the world Just like ancient Israel
In America the Church is large and rich and free just like ancient Israel
My Opinion follows ( Not from Mr. Kreeft)
I think he is correct, and I think America will suffer just like ancient Israel, not so much because of what we do but because of what we don’t do. Too many vote for parties and ideologies that have nothing to do with sanctity. Too many, including many older and otherwise religious people vote their pocketbook. The powers that be have many Americans choosing sides as if political leadership were a sport. There a few people left who do and vote what is right under all circumstances. No matter what. That is the call of faith, conciense, and decensy. We know what’s right but we don’t get it done. Despite Our wonderful military people and their long suffering families, our incredible technology and unprecedented freedom we are rotting from within. We the people of this nation have let it rot from neglect and self interest. God may pick us back up eventually but not until we lose much of what we were. We are still the last best hope, but I have lost most of my faith in us, and myself, and hope is about all we have left. Just my opinion, Dan
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melensdad
Guest
Dan, forgive me for parsing your words, I don’t think I changed your intended meaning.
I believe you made an incredible statement of truth with what you wrote. There is no question in my mind that people vote for the politicians that hand out the money, it is like a social disease and it makes us dependent upon the government. We get sucked into needing Uncle Sam to provide for us, and when we get in trouble we simply ask for more.
Most people over 50 are now members of the AARP but if you put in front of them the political views and causes supported by the AARP many of those same people are SHOCKED but they still won’t drop their membership because it gives them a little discount card. So they sell their allegiance. There is a word for that, its called whore. And it is not limited to the over 50/AARP crowd, but I used them as an example. I see it all the time with all sorts of people.
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mpb74
Guest
There was no parsing, that was what I meant. Not to single out any one particular group of Americans. But that group is very real to me. My father was 47 years older than I and a devout Catholic. He was on a postal pension and Social Security when I was 17 years old. He had a fit when I told him I voted for Reagan in 1984. He informed me we were Democrats and I should vote that way. I reminded him of the anger and frustration he expressed when the Roe V. Wade case was decided. ( Wade stands for twenty million children and counting). He told me that his pension and benefits depended on democrats. He voted democrat and attended church regularly for the rest of his life. Never got it. He was a complicit abortionist.
There are so many tough decisions we refuse to make because their difficult and hard and people will call us all sorts of names and miscatagorize our motives that we just don’t stand up. I want one person with a shred of sanity and an even smaller shred of common sense to tell me how a child predator, a pedophile, a somizer of small children ever walks the street free again after being convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. It is the height of insanity. No remotely civilized culture has ever refused to protect it’s children. Our elderly die alone because we haven’t the time to take care of them. We have become a weak and callous people listening to people in $3000 suits tell us how to live. Our schools and especially our universities squander our riches and enroll our children not to educate them but to indoctrinate them. Not to teach them how to think, but what to think. (And it’s not to think about God) If kids can’t come up with enough perverse ideas on their own, the education/social science/ welfare complex will offer them some more progressive ideas and the encouragement to experiment with them. Tell them there is no such thing as an unnatural sexual act. This is our society and it is us, because it is too hard, too difficult, and frankly, too da** inconvenient to do anything about it. Meanwhile we are fascinated by the rich and famous. How they dress, how they live, What they OWN. We don’t need any politicians. We have a Carpenter with a dedicated mother and twelve or so men with a fearless faith to follow him regardless of the consequences. We need to follow Him. It is not an easy path, but it is not complex. Faith and courage are the code of the road. No compromise, no surrender, no equivocating. Self interest in this nation, and this world are festering boils of evil. We see evil every day. We know what it is. Voting is simple. My kids wore bracelets, what would Jesus do? Well who would Jesus vote for, or would we tear down the Temple and damn all the Pharisee’s to their own iniquity. See I know what’s right, but tommorow I might not have the courage to live it. I like so many of my countrymen am too fat and happy and satisfied to stand up and be counted. I will pray on that. I will review my words in the morning and hopefully live by them to my full capability. Not complicated, Just hard. Good night my brothers and sisters in Christ and try to find the courage to be a REAL follower of Christ. He knows better than we do. So don’t think too much, just stand up and say I am a Catholic, and live it. Just my two cents worth. Dan
There are so many tough decisions we refuse to make because their difficult and hard and people will call us all sorts of names and miscatagorize our motives that we just don’t stand up. I want one person with a shred of sanity and an even smaller shred of common sense to tell me how a child predator, a pedophile, a somizer of small children ever walks the street free again after being convicted beyond a reasonable doubt. It is the height of insanity. No remotely civilized culture has ever refused to protect it’s children. Our elderly die alone because we haven’t the time to take care of them. We have become a weak and callous people listening to people in $3000 suits tell us how to live. Our schools and especially our universities squander our riches and enroll our children not to educate them but to indoctrinate them. Not to teach them how to think, but what to think. (And it’s not to think about God) If kids can’t come up with enough perverse ideas on their own, the education/social science/ welfare complex will offer them some more progressive ideas and the encouragement to experiment with them. Tell them there is no such thing as an unnatural sexual act. This is our society and it is us, because it is too hard, too difficult, and frankly, too da** inconvenient to do anything about it. Meanwhile we are fascinated by the rich and famous. How they dress, how they live, What they OWN. We don’t need any politicians. We have a Carpenter with a dedicated mother and twelve or so men with a fearless faith to follow him regardless of the consequences. We need to follow Him. It is not an easy path, but it is not complex. Faith and courage are the code of the road. No compromise, no surrender, no equivocating. Self interest in this nation, and this world are festering boils of evil. We see evil every day. We know what it is. Voting is simple. My kids wore bracelets, what would Jesus do? Well who would Jesus vote for, or would we tear down the Temple and damn all the Pharisee’s to their own iniquity. See I know what’s right, but tommorow I might not have the courage to live it. I like so many of my countrymen am too fat and happy and satisfied to stand up and be counted. I will pray on that. I will review my words in the morning and hopefully live by them to my full capability. Not complicated, Just hard. Good night my brothers and sisters in Christ and try to find the courage to be a REAL follower of Christ. He knows better than we do. So don’t think too much, just stand up and say I am a Catholic, and live it. Just my two cents worth. Dan
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Newbie2
Guest
Bad idea. If you don’t vote, you have nothing valid to say about either candidate that gets elected.
Make your best choice out of the available candidates. Yes, it’s the lesser of two evils, but if you don’t vote, then the greater of two evils may get elected.
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