Republican voters??

[Verisimilitude]

Abortion: Rudy supports late term partial birth abortion. On that alone he is not worthy of consideration. None but one is.

War: All but one supports the continuation and active agression toward an real enemy we do not understand or will admit to understanding. The wisest tactic in the long run is to prepare for the real battle by strengthening our home. Bring all of the troops home from all our overseas bases to defend THIS nation. The threat as trupeted by the MSM is false. There is no nation on earth who can attack us by open force of arms and survive. None. Name one country that could send a wave of bombers, or tanks, or ships, or even missles without us knowing it and defending against it.

Other nations can and will take care of themselves. We need to take care of ourself. We do not have the Constitutional right or authority to police the world of tyrants. Other nations should have the right to trade with us or not, to sell us oil or not. Why does anyone think we have a right to claim as “our national interest” someone elses property?

We should try and be friends with all nations by ally with none. We should not fear. We are better than that…or should be.

There is no reason to vote third party, the lesser of two evils, or against your conscience. Vote for chance of peace rather than the promise of more war and/or taxes. Vote for liberty. It’s very simple really.

" Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

 

[estesbob]

interest" someone elses property?

There is no reason to vote third party, the lesser of two evils, or against your conscience. Vote for chance of peace rather than the promise of more war and/or taxes. Vote for liberty. It’s very simple really.

.

In your opinion. But what you say is at odds wth the teachings of the Church that disagreements about the Iraq war can NOT trump abortion. nor taxes or any other issue or combination of issues.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Abortion and war has to be looked upon in and of themselves. Both are the taking of lives.

Good Christian people have protested Rowe v Wade since the beginning…they are moved by the Holy Spirit.

Good Christian people oppose this unjust war’ want it to end; and want to bring the troops home. Thie too is a prodding of the Holy Spirit, I believe.

Where is God in this War? Is He pro-War? or, is He pro-Peace?

Wars do NOT come from God. When He summoned Adam and Eve to “…be fruitful and multiply…” He did not add “…but you can destroy each other, if you like,}”

This War in Iraq never should have happened; it is the biggest blunder in the history of this Country; has NO end in sight and was commenced on faulty information. There are NO WMDs in Iraq…and there NEVER was. The WMDs was the catalyst for attacking Iraq…Five years later, we are STILL looking for WMDs.

This War paralyzes rational thought. The only thing we hear is “denial” from the “war people.” This War has already cost this Country 30 years of its future for something that never existed (WMDs).

 

[estesbob]

Abortion and war has to be looked upon in and of themselves. Both are the taking of lives.

Good Christian people have protested Rowe v Wade since the beginning…they are moved by the Holy Spirit.

Good Christian people oppose this unjust war’ want it to end; and want to bring the troops home. Thie too is a prodding of the Holy Spirit, I believe.

And good Chrisitan people support the liberation of Iraq. The Church says it is ok for Catholics of good faith to disagree or agree with the war but that one can not use disagreement with the war to put into power those who support abortion.

The War is Iraq is just the latest of a long list of excuses used by those who claim to be be pro-life but help put in office those who aid and abete the killing of our chidlren. They were voting for those who support killing our children long befpre there was a war in Iraq and when this war is completed they will quicky find another reason to support the child killing apologists.When ones politics trumps their faith any excuse will do.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

And good Chrisitan people support the liberation of Iraq. The Church says it is ok for Catholics of good faith to disagree or agree with the war but that one can not use disagreement with the war to put into power those who support abortion.

The War is Iraq is just the latest of a long list of excuses used by those who claim to be be pro-life but help put in office those who aid and abete the killing of our chidlren. They were voting for those who support killing our children long befpre there was a war in Iraq and when this war is completed they will quicky find another reason to support the child killing apologists.When ones politics trumps their faith any excuse will do.

Those who support life but support this War is a “damned if I do; damned if I don’t” choice. Each issue is separate and distinct.

Some of us will NOT vote for a War advocate NOR vote for a pro-abortion candidate. We have been cajoled too often and it finally has come to a crossroads for many of us. So, how do you choose one evil over another evil?

As a Catholic in good faith support for a War advocate will NOT come from me. In good conscience this War has taken thousands and thousands of lives UNNECESSARILY. This War never should have happened.

A Catholic in “good conscience” sees supporting this War as not in keeping with God’s desire for humanity particularly when the “reasons” for the War were based on fauilty information.

One thing is obvious: the War advocates will not convince those that Oppose this War; and vice versa. So as long as support for this War is promulgated there will be the voice opposing it. This will not go away UNTIL this War goes away.

(Same goes for abortion; we will oppose it as always)

Looks like a Third Party from here.

 

[estesbob]

Those who support life but support this War is a “damned if I do; damned if I don’t” choice. Each issue is separate and distinct.

Some of us will NOT vote for a War advocate NOR vote for a pro-abortion candidate. We have been cajoled too often and it finally has come to a crossroads for many of us. So, how do you choose one evil over another evil?

.

That is a principled stand and fully within the teachings of the Church.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

That is a principled stand and fully within the teachings of the Church.

 

[rlg94086]

LOL…what are you confused about? estesbob said there is nothing wrong with your voting choice. Were you expecting him to scold you?

 

[estesbob]

Refusing to vote for a canidate who supports abortion and supports the war is a pricncipled stand. I applaud you for it.

 

[johnstown_johnn]

Refusing to vote for a canidate who supports abortion and supports the war is a pricncipled stand. I applaud you for it.

Hold onto your applause for the next attempt at being clever.

This War is immoral as much as abortion. Both are sins, IMO.

 

[estesbob]

Hold onto your applause for the next attempt at being clever.

This War is immoral as much as abortion. Both are sins, IMO.

In your opinion in mine it is not the church says both are acceptable views

 

[Verisimilitude]

In your opinion. But what you say is at odds wth the teachings of the Church that disagreements about the Iraq war can NOT trump abortion. nor taxes or any other issue or combination of issues.

I’m not sure I follow you because I don’t see where I have spoken at odds with the Church. I simply stated there is a Republican candidate who has been consistantly anti-abortion, anti Roe v Wade, anti-taxation, and who also happens to be anti- Iraq war.

I was a supporter of the war until a few months ago. I have not changed my view that we face significant dangers from Islamic ideology, I have changed my view on how we resolve them. I have changed my view of what America should be doing and what right America has to do them and these are two very differnt things.

The hubris of American policy that suggests we have a legitimate legal and/or moral right to secure our energy sources by force of arms is disturbing. Would you punch the store cleark in the nose if he refused to seel you water- or would you go elsewhere to quench your thirst?

If no one wants to sell you water dig your own well. If no one wants to sell you a shovel use your hands. If you die of thirst before getting to water- so be it. God will reward you for keeping the peace. This is true for the individual, it should also be true for our government.

7 years ago $100 a barrel oil was unthinkable. Tomorrow it will be reality. What have we gianed by this policy? I’d rather walk than fight for their oil. Only with liberty and freedom will we be able to recover when we fall on hard times- and hard times are coming. If we give away our personal freedoms and liberty to any government- including ours- we must look to government for our salvation.

No thanks. I will look to myself, my family, my neighbor, and my community for help- not Washington- or New York (UN).

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Any argument anyone gives for maintaining and/or expanding the war can be refuted with simple clarity supported by Scripture as well as the US Constitution.

Any argument anyone can give for supporting abortion can be refuted with reason by Scripture as well as the US Constitution.

Any politician or American that says otherwise is either fooling others or themselves.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

This is not just my opinion.

 

[estesbob]

c ideology, I have changed my view on how we resolve them. I have changed my view of what America should be doing and what right America has to do them and these are two very differnt things.

The hubris of American policy that suggests we have a legitimate legal and/or moral right to secure our energy sources by force of arms is disturbing. Would you punch the store cleark in the nose if he refused to seel you water- or would you go elsewhere to quench your thirst?

If no one wants to sell you water dig your own well. If no one wants to sell you a shovel use your hands. If you die of thirst before getting to water- so be it. God will reward you for keeping the peace. This is true for the individual, it should also be true for our government.

7 years ago $100 a barrel oil was unthinkable. Tomorrow it will be reality. What have we gianed by this policy? I’d rather walk than fight for their oil. Only with liberty and freedom will we be able to recover when we fall on hard times- and hard times are coming. If we give away our personal freedoms and liberty to any government- including ours- we must look to government for our salvation.

No thanks. I will look to myself, my family, my neighbor, and my community for help- not Washington- or New York (UN).

Any argument anyone gives for maintaining and/or expanding the war can be refuted with simple clarity supported by Scripture as well as the US Constitution.

Any argument anyone can give for supporting abortion can be refuted with reason by Scripture as well as the US Constitution.

Any politician or American that says otherwise is either fooling others or themselves.

This is not just my opinion.

Of0courÃse it is your opinion and the Church says in matters of war we can make our own decisions the same is not true for abortion

 

[Verisimilitude]

Of0courÃse it is your opinion and the Church says in matters of war we can make our own decisions the same is not true for abortion

If it met the Just War criteria–we can make our own decisions. It does not.

Congress gave limited approval to attack those who attacked us after 9/11.

Authorizes the President to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations, or persons.

I find it shamefull and deralect on the part of the US civilian authority- not the military- that those responsible are still breathing.

Only Congress (Legislative) can wage war- not the President (Executive). We did not annoint a King in 2000/2004, but Congress has to a large degree given him the authority the Constituion strictly withheld from that office. It’s not just Bush. This has been growing for years.

This is dangerous and almost each and every one of the Dems and Republicans running want that same power Congress has ceded to the ofice of the President.

I disagree with Rudy’s opinion here:

What we don’t see is that freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be. Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A01E2D9173CF933A15750C0A962958260

I call BS.

America was founded on the ideals that we are free and we have liberty. The reasons so many different people can come together in relative peace and harmony is that we do not tell each other what we can or cannot do. Government was to be limited so that individual freedom could flourish- and we are forgetting that ideology.

This is not true either:

Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime. -GWB-

I supported that but if it were true today we would be attacking Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt, Syria…

Since we are unable or unwilling to do that now we should come home until we are willing to do so. Declare war on the ideology- not the tactics. I will support that. We rightly declared war on the Nazi ideology centered in Germany- after Germany’s ally Japan attacked us unprovoked. It was a clear goal- unconditional surrender or total anilation of the declared enemy.

We need to return to our rule of law and our own ideology that all people are free to do as they wish. Freedom is only to be limited when a individual is harmfull to himself or his neighbors property/self. (Do unto others…) Our Constitution is specific to America, but the ideology is catholic.

If you want war- follow the US law and declare it justly and lawfully. If you refuse to do that it is your persoanl opinion that is no different than the secular approval of abortion.

 

[estesbob]

If it met the Just War criteria–we can make our own decisions. It does not.

In your opinion. in my opinion it more than met the just war criteria. Since the Chruch made no pronouncement we are free to come to our own conslusion.

Congress gave limited approval to attack those who attacked us after 9/11.

Revisionist histroy, Bush was given the authority to wage war by the Congress of the United States in full accordance with the provisions of the Constitution

I find it shamefull and deralect on the part of the US civilian authority- not the military- that those responsible are still breathing.

Most of them arent. The ones that are are living in caves in fear for thie lives.The have been unable to strike the United States for 6 years.

Only Congress (Legislative) can wage war- not the President (Executive). We did not annoint a King in 2000/2004, but Congress has to a large degree given him the authority the Constituion strictly withheld from that office. It’s not just Bush. This has been growing for years.

And Congress overwehmingly gave him the authority go to war with iraq. Congress could end the war tomorrow if they so wished

This is dangerous and almost each and every one of the Dems and Republicans running want that same power Congress has ceded to the ofice of the President

You mean the Power given him by the Constitution? Why would any canidate want to eliminate powers given to the Presdident by the Consitution of the United States.

I disagree with ******** opinion here:

I call BS.

America was founded on the ideals that we are free and we have liberty. The reasons so many different people can come together in relative peace and harmony is that we do not tell each other what we can or cannot do. Government was to be limited so that individual freedom could flourish- and we are forgetting that ideology.

This is not true either:

We are no supposed to dicuss canidates here.

I supported that but if it were true today we would be attacking Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Jordan, Egypt, Syria…

Why?

Since we are unable or unwilling to do that now we should come home until we are willing to do so. Declare war on the ideology- not the tactics. I will support that. We rightly declared war on the Nazi ideology centered in Germany- after Germany’s ally Japan attacked us unprovoked. It was a clear goal- unconditional surrender or total anilation of the declared enemy.

We need to return to our rule of law and our own ideology that all people are free to do as they wish. Freedom is only to be limited when a individual is harmfull to himself or his neighbors property/self. (Do unto others…) Our Constitution is specific to America, but the ideology is catholic.

In you opinion-an opinion you thus far have not been able to back up.

If you want war- follow the US law and declare it justly and lawfully. If you refuse to do that it is your persoanl opinion that is no different than the secular approval of abortion.

No one wants war. But this one was approved by both houses of congress by an overwhelming vote. you are, of course, free to disagree with it-what you are not free to do is assert we all must agree it is an unjust war. There is no moral equivalence between supporting the liberation of Iraq and supporting abortion. The Church has binding teachings on the latter and allows us to form our own opinion on the former.

 

[Verisimilitude]

In your opinion. in my opinion it more than met the just war criteria. Since the Chruch made no pronouncement we are free to come to our own conslusion.

Do you equate the US response to 9/11 in Afghanistan to what we are doing in Iraq as the same battle? If so please support what the President and the Pope has not.

Identify Iraq’s Just War criteria you agree with.

Support what you claim- or please don’t claim it.

The Pope led the Vatican in a diplomatic campaign to avert war, putting the Holy See on a collision course with Washington and its backers in the Iraq campaign.

VATICAN CITY — Pope John Paul II and top Vatican officials are unleashing a barrage of condemnations of a possible U.S. military strike on Iraq, calling it immoral, risky and a “crime against peace.”
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,80875,00.html

You should not combine “Just War” with Afghanistan, Iraq, and the supply of oil. I don’t see the conection.

Revisionist histroy, Bush was given the authority to wage war by the Congress of the United States in full accordance with the provisions of the Constitution

Cite your source. Where is the declaration of war?

An up or down vote on declaring war against Iraq would not pass the Congress, and the President has no intention of asking for it. This is unfortunate, because if the process were carried out in a constitutional fashion, the American people and the U.S. Congress would vote “No” on assuming responsibility for this war.

Transferring authority to wage war, calling it permission to use force to fight for peace in order to satisfy the UN Charter, which replaces the Article I, Section 8 war power provision, is about as close to 1984 “newspeak” that we will ever get in the real world.

Please don’t give me the pro-war talking points and call it revisionist history. Make up your own mind by reason and fact.

Most of them arent. The ones that are are living in caves in fear for thie lives.The have been unable to strike the United States for 6 years.

Get real. Do you think blowing up America is the goal? Do you think only falling buildings in our cities or exploding airports is an attack on the US? How many dead US soldiers in Iraq will it take for you to realize they have been doing more damage to the US over there than they ever could here.

And Congress overwehmingly gave him the authority go to war with iraq. Congress could end the war tomorrow if they so wished

So what? You want the war to continue. I, and many others do not.

You mean the Power given him by the Constitution? Why would any canidate want to eliminate powers given to the Presdident by the Consitution of the United States.

Why not read it before you coment on it.

We are no supposed to dicuss canidates here.

Kick me out then. You can’t discuss such subjects without citing who is saying what and forming policy.

Why?

Why attack Saudi? Where does the ideology originate from?

In you opinion-an opinion you thus far have not been able to back up.

I have backed up everything I have stated. You have given/cited nothing.

No one wants war. But this one was approved by both houses of congress by an overwhelming vote. you are, of course, free to disagree with it-what you are not free to do is assert we all must agree it is an unjust war. There is no moral equivalence between supporting the liberation of Iraq and supporting abortion. The Church has binding teachings on the latter and allows us to form our own opinion on the former.

You seem to want war because of fear. I am not afraid like you are. Have you ever served in the military?

Support your just war in Iraq either or both: Constituionally or by the Church.

The moral equivalence is glaring: individual human rights are being violated by an unjust civil law regarding abortion and an unjust undeclared war in Iraq.

 

[estesbob]

The moral equivalence is glaring: individual human rights are being violated by an unjust civil law regarding abortion and an unjust undeclared war in Iraq.

Unless you can show a formal decalaration from the Church your opinion of the justness of the war is no better than mine. If the Church had declared it unjust every catholic soldier would either have to lie down their arms or be guilty of a mortal sin. Do you beleive all catholic servicemen are sinning by fighting in this war? Do those who die in battle go directly to hell?. You cant have it both ways.

.I personally think that the Liberation of Iraq will go down as one of our countries finest moments. I am proud that our congress overwehmingly approved it an our President carried it out.

There is no moral equivalance between the war in Iraq and the slaughter of 1.2 million children year-at least that is what the Church says

 

[Verisimilitude]

Unless you can show a formal decalaration from the Church your opinion of the justness of the war is no better than mine. If the Church had declared it unjust every catholic soldier would either have to lie down their arms or be guilty of a mortal sin. Do you beleive all catholic servicemen are sinning by fighting in this war? Do those who die in battle go directly to hell?. You cant have it both ways.

.I personally think that the Liberation of Iraq will go down as one of our countries finest moments. I am proud that our congress overwehmingly approved it an our President carried it out.

There is no moral equivalance between the war in Iraq and the slaughter of 1.2 million children year-at least that is what the Church says

I think this will be my last response to you on this thread. Not too long ago I was singing pretty much the same tune as you are. I was wrong. You are wrong.

I do not have to prove the negative in finding the Church’s condemnation for Iraq more than I have… and I have. You find it’s support. You should read the links I have provided in the last few posts before dismissing them as they refute nearly all of yur claims. You should answer my direct questions as well, as I have answered yours. Those following our discussion can make up their own minds who has best supported the argument.
Regarding the soldiers; no, I do not feel they are damned for carrying out the Presidents orders, and find your accusation offensive. I think they are honorable men and women abiding by the Constituion, unlike the CIC. WE should remove them from that moral and physical conflict without delay.

Don’t think I am bashing Bush unfairly either. I voted for him in 04 to support the war effort. When I am wrong I admit it. There is no shame in that.

I am looking at the whole of our politics over the last 50 years and he is just the man at the top at the moment. Read Ikes Industrial Military Complex speech and see how it has morphed into one that now includes multi-national companies not with the US best interests at heart, and see how the MSM has become it’s propaganda machine.

http://pssht.com/fauxnews/2001logo.jpg

That is why there is little to no difference between any of them running for office now despite the left being more pro-abortion- thou as pointed out earlier- many on the right- all of the front runners- have been pro-abortion in the past and do not convince me they are pro-life now.

As a Catholic there is no alternative but for me to support the ideology of non-intervention when we are not overtly threatened. They can only attack us if we let them, and being in Iraq…and having open and unsecure borders with millions sneaking in illegally and undocumented…we are giving an open invitation to our enemies. Read my post history in non-Catholic Religions. I am no wall-flower. I am however trying to uphold my faith as well as my nation with intefrity in a time of crisis. I will err on the side of peace rather than war if there is any ambiguity.

Even if the surge “works” and brings some semblance of stability to Iraq- it does nothing to the larger conflict we face with regard to the threat of a religious ideology that is in complete opposition to not only my faith, but my country. That will not be resolved at all and if you think they will aquiesce like the Germans and Japanese did…you are sadly mistaken.

I am a veteran. I played a small role in the first Gulf War. My brother was a Marine in Lebanon in 1983. Luckily he was not one of the 241 killed there. My dad served during Korea and 50 years later I too served in the ROK. I have nephews serving in both war theaters now. Don’t even suggest I am not supporting them in all they do. But what they do is directed from the civilian authority. I am all for the right fight. This is not it. Admit when you are wrong because you are. Support our troops by supporting sound foreign policy that reflects our laws as well as our faith.

Lastly, I see a huge difference between a waterddown semi-Christian secular politician that supports abortion and the war with Catholic politicians who supports partial birth abortions, and the war. I have higher regard for the non Catholic- sad as that is.

 

[estesbob]

I think this will be my last response to you on this thread. Not too long ago I was singing pretty much the same tune as you are. I was wrong. You are wrong.

I do not have to prove the negative in finding the Church’s condemnation for Iraq more than I have… and I have. You find it’s support. You should read the links I have provided in the last few posts before dismissing them as they refute nearly all of yur claims. You should answer my direct questions as well, as I have answered yours. Those following our discussion can make up their own minds who has best supported the argument.
Regarding the soldiers; no, I do not feel they are damned for carrying out the Presidents orders, and find your accusation offensive. I think they are honorable men and women abiding by the Constituion, unlike the CIC. WE should remove them from that moral and physical conflict without delay.

Don’t think I am bashing Bush unfairly either. I voted for him in 04 to support the war effort. When I am wrong I admit it. There is no shame in that.

I am looking at the whole of our politics over the last 50 years and he is just the man at the top at the moment. Read Ikes Industrial Military Complex speech and see how it has morphed into one that now includes multi-national companies not with the US best interests at heart, and see how the MSM has become it’s propaganda machine.

http://pssht.com/fauxnews/2001logo.jpg

That is why there is little to no difference between any of them running for office now despite the left being more pro-abortion- thou as pointed out earlier- many on the right- all of the front runners- have been pro-abortion in the past and do not convince me they are pro-life now.

As a Catholic there is no alternative but for me to support the ideology of non-intervention when we are not overtly threatened. They can only attack us if we let them, and being in Iraq…and having open and unsecure borders with millions sneaking in illegally and undocumented…we are giving an open invitation to our enemies. Read my post history in non-Catholic Religions. I am no wall-flower. I am however trying to uphold my faith as well as my nation with intefrity in a time of crisis. I will err on the side of peace rather than war if there is any ambiguity.

Even if the surge “works” and brings some semblance of stability to Iraq- it does nothing to the larger conflict we face with regard to the threat of a religious ideology that is in complete opposition to not only my faith, but my country. That will not be resolved at all and if you think they will aquiesce like the Germans and Japanese did…you are sadly mistaken.

I am a veteran. I played a small role in the first Gulf War. My brother was a Marine in Lebanon in 1983. Luckily he was not one of the 241 killed there. My dad served during Korea and 50 years later I too served in the ROK. I have nephews serving in both war theaters now. Don’t even suggest I am not supporting them in all they do. But what they do is directed from the civilian authority. I am all for the right fight. This is not it. Admit when you are wrong because you are. Support our troops by supporting sound foreign policy that reflects our laws as well as our faith.

Lastly, I see a huge difference between a waterddown semi-Christian secular politician that supports abortion and the war with Catholic politicians who supports partial birth abortions, and the war. I have higher regard for the non Catholic- sad as that is.

Oh my -a Faux news banner. So much for any chance of intelligent discussion.

Bye.

 

[Ferdinand_Mary]

Thank you to all who participated, this thread is now closed.

Mane Nobiscum Domine,
Ferdinand Mary