Request for radical sanation denied

  • Thread starter Thread starter m1dsummoner
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Wow, ladies and gents, I haven’t been on for a few days, and it looks like you didn’t need me to carry on the discussion.
Yes, I’ve been annuled twice. They don’t let you marry in the church without that.
Yes, my son is baptized in two churches. My ex-husband insisted on it, knowing my son was being raised Mormon. For peace, I let him.
Sorry, I don’t think the Mormons are going to hell. Nicely enough, they don’t think I am either, which is good.
Yes, I miss the sacraments. No, I don’t think I’ll be going back to my faith. I think it’s time I look for another. I did make a pretty big decision when I decided my soulmate was worth losing my church. I can’t explain what finding him means to me…and loving him as he is…and he loves me as I am…means everything to me.
Thank you all for your time. And some of your prayers. I pray for you as well.
peace
m1dsummoner
 
Hello.
My request for a radical sanation was denied by my Bishop. My letter from my priest said, and I quote: “Both the Bishop and Monsignor [Martin, from the diocesan Tribunal] agree that a Radical Sanation does not apply in your case.”
My annulment from my second marriage was recently approved. Two years ago, I laid out the details of my previous/current marriage situation to my parish priest, and he recommended a radical sanation - but said I should file for annulment from my second husband and come see him when it was finalized. Well, he was transferred before I received my annulment.
My current husband is Mormon. We were married by the President of his church, in a civil ceremony. My husband has no wish to convert.
I have a son who is 11, and who has been baptized in two churches - Catholic and Mormon. The annulment has taken so long, my son is more interested in and is pursuing the Mormon faith.
Can anyone tell me the most likely reason they would deny a radical sanation? Was there some canonical law I missed in my internet research, or is it really Tribunal/Bishopric preference? I guess I would feel slightly better if it was denied due to the number of times I was married, my age (no future children), the grounds my annulment was granted under, yadda yadda. The Bishop gave no reason. My heart needs one.
Thanks for your time.
You were Catholic and married at least once without the approval of the Church, the first marriage. The second marriage is immaterial since it was annulled. So you want to be married to the first husband now. So there are two possible ways to create a new marriage in this situation, the simple convalidation and the retroactive convalidation.

In either case it requires that proper consent perdues (freely given, lifelong, exclusive, granting gift of proper conjugal relations) and no impediments that cannot be dispensed with. Per Canon 1157 if one of the couple does not believe or know that consent was invalid, then new consent cannot be given, so simple convalidation will not apply, but retroactive may be possible. If defect of consent does not exist now then retroactive could not apply per Canon 1162.1.

The canon law:

CIC

CHAPTER X: THE VALIDATION OF MARRIAGE
ARTICLE 1: SIMPLE VALIDATION Canon 1156.1 To validate a marriage which is invalid because of a diriment impediment, it is required that the impediment cease or be dispensed, and that at least the party aware of the impediment renews consent.
Canon 1156.2 This renewal is required by ecclesiastical law for the validity of the validation, even if at the beginning both parties had given consent and had not afterwards withdrawn it.
Canon 1157 The renewal of consent must be a new act of will consenting to a marriage which the renewing party knows or thinks was invalid from the beginning.
Canon 1158.1 If the impediment is public, consent is to be renewed by both parties in the canonical form, without prejudice to the provision of Canon 1127.3.
Canon 1158.2 If the impediment cannot be proved, it is sufficient that consent be renewed privately and in secret, specifically by the party who is aware of the impediment provided the other party persists in the consent given, or by both parties if the impediment is known to both.
Canon 1159.1 A marriage invalid because of a defect of consent is validated if the party who did not consent, now does consent, provided the consent given by the other party persists.
Canon 1159.2 If the defect of the consent cannot be proven, it is sufficient that the party who did not consent, gives consent privately and in secret.
Canon 1159.3 If the defect of consent can be proven, it is necessary that consent be given in the canonical form.
Canon 1160 For a marriage which is invalid because of defect of form to become valid, it must be contracted anew in the canonical form, without prejudice to the provisions of Canon 1127.3 [4].
Article 2: Retroactive Validation Canon 1161.1 The retroactive validation of an invalid marriage is its validation without the renewal of consent, granted by the competent authority. It involves a dispensation from an impediment if there is one and from the canonical form if it had not been observed, as well as a referral back to the past of the canonical effects.
Canon 1161.2 The validation takes place from the moment the favour is granted; the referral back, however, is understood to have been made to the moment the marriage was celebrated, unless it is otherwise expressly provided.
Canon 1161.3 A retroactive validation is not to be granted unless it is probable that the parties intend to persevere in conjugal life.
Canon 1162.1 If consent is lacking in either or both of the parties, a marriage cannot be rectified by a retroactive validation, whether consent was absent from the beginning or, though given at the beginning, was subsequently revoked.
Canon 1162.2 If the consent was indeed absent from the beginning but was subsequently given, a retroactive validation can be granted from the moment the consent was given.
Canon 1163.1 A marriage which is invalid because of an impediment or because of defect of the legal form, can be validated retroactively, provided the consent of both parties persists.
Canon 1163.2 A marriage which is invalid because of an impediment of the natural law or of the divine positive law, can be validated retroactively only after the impediment has ceased.
Canon 1164 A retroactive validation may validly be granted even if one or both of the parties is unaware of it; it is not, however, to be granted except for a grave reason.
Canon 1165.1 Retroactive validation can be granted by the Apostolic See.
Canon 1165.2 It can be granted by the diocesan Bishop in individual cases, even if a number of reasons for nullity occur together in the same marriage, assuming that for a retroactive validation of a mixed marriage the conditions of Canon 1125 will have been fulfilled. It cannot, however, be granted by him if there is an impediment whose dispensation is reserved to the Apostolic See in accordance with Canon 1078.2, or if there is question of an impediment of the natural law or of the divine positive law which has now ceased.
 

I hope you stay but truthfully if I couldn’t take communion and was refused the way you were, I’d leave the faith. …
:bigyikes: and what then - when this individual [or their child] does not follow the teachings of the Mormon faith … with the resulting actions … for example not being able to enter into a Temple for lack of a Temple Card … thats a refusal … should they then leave that faith … join a new ‘faith’ until the person fails some aspect of that new faith and the consequences … then leave that faith … :hypno:

As a 'Catholic" Christian - there are certain articles of faith and actions that are required - for belief and actions … some of which are to believe in the Dogmas, participate each Sunday and other Holy Days of Obligation at Mass - receive the Sacraments of Reconcilliation and Eucharist at least once per year, marry in the Church, raise your children in the faith - etc … This person married three times - the third time before receiveing a declaration of nullity on two previous marriages … allowed their child to be Baptized in two very distinct faiths and who fails to attend Mass …

You say this person was ‘refused’ and that refusal means they should leave the faith … Just my observation - but it seems this person “refused” the very Faith they bemoan … they essentially left the Church - the Church did not leave them …

The Church is there waiting to welcome them back - but they have to decide to be an active - practicing - serious Christian - one sho understands what it means to be Catholic …

😊 sadly - I know what it is to turn away 😦 and then make my way back 😃 trust me -

Heaven is awaiting the party that will result in a return to the Church that hosts a Banquet of Love for you and your son - Hurry Home 🙂 … I am :signofcross:for you!
 
:bigyikes: and what then - when this individual [or their child] does not follow the teachings of the Mormon faith … with the resulting actions … for example not being able to enter into a Temple for lack of a Temple Card … thats a refusal … should they then leave that faith … join a new ‘faith’ until the person fails some aspect of that new faith and the consequences … then leave that faith … :hypno:

As a 'Catholic" Christian - there are certain articles of faith and actions that are required - for belief and actions … some of which are to believe in the Dogmas, participate each Sunday and other Holy Days of Obligation at Mass - receive the Sacraments of Reconcilliation and Eucharist at least once per year, marry in the Church, raise your children in the faith - etc … This person married three times - the third time before receiveing a declaration of nullity on two previous marriages … allowed their child to be Baptized in two very distinct faiths and who fails to attend Mass …

You say this person was ‘refused’ and that refusal means they should leave the faith … Just my observation - but it seems this person “refused” the very Faith they bemoan … they essentially left the Church - the Church did not leave them …

The Church is there waiting to welcome them back - but they have to decide to be an active - practicing - serious Christian - one sho understands what it means to be Catholic …

😊 sadly - I know what it is to turn away 😦 and then make my way back 😃 trust me -

Heaven is awaiting the party that will result in a return to the Church that hosts a Banquet of Love for you and your son - Hurry Home 🙂 … I am :signofcross:for you!
The faith REFUSED this person, it’s pretty obvious. But you are missing the boat. This individual married an LDS…that says a lot.

I know this may shock you, but the Catholic faith isn’t for everyone. Better to be in another Christian faith than in no faith at all. If you can’t receive any sacraments, who in the world would keep attending? No one that I know and I’ve talked to some pretty devout Catholics.

Better to be united in one Church than none at all.
 
Gotta watch out for anyone displaying kindness and warmheartedness. :rolleyes:
Wow what horrible things to say about Mormons. I don’t agree with their theology but I can’t imagine being Mormon and reading this. No wonder our faith is going down in numbers.
 
It’s part of the Catholic belief system to not receive Eucharist if you have mortal sin on your soul. OP won’t be permanently cut off from the Eucharist, but she needs to figure out how to make her marriage valid.
The Church’s continued stance has forced this hand for many families. I agree and yet dont agree with much of their stance in this. I don’t see marriage as a sacrament but more of a covenant.

She figured out how to make it valid. She went to a faith that received her, recognized and validated her, and is instructing her family. Sad but true.
 
snipped for space
The faith REFUSED this person, it’s pretty obvious. If you can’t receive any sacraments, who in the world would keep attending? No one that I know and I’ve talked to some pretty devout Catholics.
No, the faith did not refuse the OP, the OP refused the faith. She may not have understood what she was doing, but the Church did nothing to her, she made her own choices.

As for not being able to receive the sacraments, let me share a little story.

My husband & I (both Catholic) were not married in the Church and did not have the proper dispensation to do so. We were not practicing, so it didn’t really matter to me at the time.

Fast forward 20 years,I have found my faith again, and have come to terms with the fact that, in the eyes of the Church, we are not married, so I set out to rectify the situation.

Convalidation was not an option for my husband, as he felt he should not have to give his consent again. “I consented before man & God 20 years ago, and if that’s not good enough for the Church then too bad!”, was how he felt, and to be honest, I could not blame him. So, I found out about the provision of “Radical Sanation” and talked ot a couple people and found out that we may have a case for for this, so I started the process,
with the full knowledge that if the Bishop decided that this was not applicable to us, I would be in an invalid marriage, and would not be able to receive the Eucharist until it was fixed.

I could have said the heck with it, that’s just a stupid, man-made rule, and continued to receive and not care what the Chruch said, or I could leave. Neither of those things was an option for me, so I took a huge leap of faith, put everything I believe in on the line and hoped and prayed that God would take care of everything.

Fortunately, He did, and our sanation was granted. Sometimes, we have to put our needs, wants & desires aside, and do what Godis calling us to do, even if it means giving up something that is very important to us. And I will also say this, I have a much better appreciation, respect and love for the Eucharist now, and no matter what some priest/deacon/relious/lay person may do to me, I have to remember that they are not God or the Church, they are sinnful human beings, just like me, and it would be unfair to turn my back of God & his Church because of what frail human beings to.

Just some food for thought.
 
Wow, ladies and gents, I haven’t been on for a few days, and it looks like you didn’t need me to carry on the discussion.
Yes, I’ve been annuled twice. They don’t let you marry in the church without that.
Yes, my son is baptized in two churches. My ex-husband insisted on it, knowing my son was being raised Mormon. For peace, I let him.
Sorry, I don’t think the Mormons are going to hell. Nicely enough, they don’t think I am either, which is good.
Yes, I miss the sacraments. No, I don’t think I’ll be going back to my faith. I think it’s time I look for another. I did make a pretty big decision when I decided my soulmate was worth losing my church. I can’t explain what finding him means to me…and loving him as he is…and he loves me as I am…means everything to me.
Thank you all for your time. And some of your prayers. I pray for you as well.
peace
m1dsummoner
Please don’t leave the faith and look for another. Another woman told of her radical sanation happening and perhaps there is still a chance for you.

I, too, would go back to the tribunal and ask for an explanation and other options. Let me tell you why.

My husband and I had been in a common-law (not civil) marriage for more than 20 years when I returned to my faith. If there is anything that scares the heck out of people it is the term “common-law marriage” because so few actually understand what it is, how it is formed and how they end. Contrary to what you hear, you do not need to live together for 7 years - that is a myth.

I studied and researched my options for fixing my situation within the church for more than a year before I went to the priest. I asked for help and nothing happened. It took more than a year to get them to follow through on helping me but finally it happened and I was referred to the marriage tribunal. The priest looked at my case and said he had to study and research the situation. I was ready for that and handed him stacks of paper to help my case. He took it back to the tribune where they got a Bishop to study the possibility of radical sanction for a common-law marriage and the whole process took almost another year.

A local Bishop may grant a radical sanation when one party to the marriage is Catholic and the other is not. However, since a local Bishop cannot grant dispensation to a defect of form between two baptized Catholics, he also cannot grant a radical sanction to two Catholics. So, my case was sent to the Vatican. I was not hopeful but the Bishop, who is now an Archbishop, wrote to the Vatican on my behalf asking that they grant the request.

After almost another year, I wrote the the priest at the tribune and asked what he thought might be taking so long and his answer was…“you have Rome scratching their heads, but I assure you they will answer.”

And answer they did. I now have my certificate of marriage written in Latin on Vatican letterhead. None of that would have happened without my perseverance and my patience. I waited many years to receive the Eucharist but as one of my “more” Catholic friends suggested to me…I asked for a “spiritual communion” with Christ while everyone else was going to the altar to receive His Body.

Please go back to the priest and ask for an explanation. Perhaps you can ask for a meeting with the Bishop to discuss the reasons and what he suggests your options might be.

I will not denigrate anyone’s religion but as part of accepting any faith besides Catholicism, please ask lots of questions and pray hard. Many theologians have explained why there is a question as to whether or not Mormonism is actually a Christian faith. They do believe in Jesus but the core of Christianity is absolute faith in the Holy Trinity. It is my understanding that Mormons do not believe Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit to be the same person which would exclude them from Christianity. I will never go so far as to say that a Mormon will not be welcome in heaven as I believe that God has room for all of us provided we ask. But, leaving the Church which Christ established for a church which does not believe in the core Christian doctrine, could be a problem.
 
A local Bishop may grant a radical sanation when one party to the marriage is Catholic and the other is not. However, since a local Bishop cannot grant dispensation to a defect of form between two baptized Catholics, he also cannot grant a radical sanction to two Catholics.
This is not true. Both my husband and I were Catholic at the time of our civil marriage, and did not have the proper dispensation so our marriage was null due to lack of form. We were granted a radical sanation.
 
This is not true. Both my husband and I were Catholic at the time of our civil marriage, and did not have the proper dispensation so our marriage was null due to lack of form. We were granted a radical sanation.
The Bishop told us he could not do it so it had to go to the Vatican. I don’t know if there is a rule or which if either of them is incorrect.

It was explained to me that because a Bishop cannot grant dispensation for a defect when both are Catholic, that he also could not sanate it. Either way, I am happy. The Vatican has given me the nod.
 
The Bishop told us he could not do it so it had to go to the Vatican. I don’t know if there is a rule or which if either of them is incorrect.

It was explained to me that because a Bishop cannot grant dispensation for a defect when both are Catholic, that he also could not sanate it. Either way, I am happy. The Vatican has given me the nod.
Hello,

I won’t bother to get into the details of the debate but, FYI, there is still some disagreement among canon lawyers about this question so your story–and the Bishop’s action–is not surprising. Asking the Holy See to grant the sanation is certainly the safer course. That being said, the majority opinion is that the bishop *can *grant the sanation in your circumstance.

Dan
 
Hello,

I won’t bother to get into the details of the debate but, FYI, there is still some disagreement among canon lawyers about this question so your story–and the Bishop’s action–is not surprising. Asking the Holy See to grant the sanation is certainly the safer course. That being said, the majority opinion is that the bishop *can *grant the sanation in your circumstance.

Dan
I didn’t know there was any debate but since there is, I am glad the Bishop took the route he did. It really is kind of nice to have a certificate from the Vatican - just a little extra perk.
 
The Bishop told us he could not do it so it had to go to the Vatican. I don’t know if there is a rule or which if either of them is incorrect.

It was explained to me that because a Bishop cannot grant dispensation for a defect when both are Catholic, that he also could not sanate it. Either way, I am happy. The Vatican has given me the nod.
I believe the rule (which I saw once) is that two Catholics cannot be granted a dispensation for lack of form. However I know for a fact that a bishop can grant a radical sanation (resulting from a lack of form) for two Catholics.

Here is what I read:

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/intrptxt/documents/rc_pc_intrptxt_doc_20020604_interpretationes-authenticae_lt.html
Code:
         Can. 87, § 1 (cf. AAS, LXXVII, 1985, 771)
Patres Pontificiae Commissionis Codici Iuris Canonici Authentice Interpretando, propositis in plenario coetu diei 14 maii 1985, quae sequuntur dubiis, respondendum esse censuerunt ut infra ad singula:
III
De dispensatione a forma canonica matrimonii
D. Utrum extra casum urgentis mortis periculi Episcopus dioecesanus, ad normam can. 87, § 1, dispensare valeat a forma canonica in matrimonio duorum catholicorum.
R. Negative.
Summus Pontifex Ioannes Paulus II in Audientia die 5 iulii 1985 infrascripto impertita, de supradictis decisionibus certior factus, eas publicari iussit.
Rosalius Iosephus Card. Castillo Lara,
Praeses
Iulianus Herranz,
a Secretis

Here is my translation:

July 5, 1985 answer to dubium on the diocesan Bishop power of dispensation from the form of marriage of two Catholics, promulgated in AAS:

D. Whether outside the urgent case of the peril of death the diocesan Bishop, according to the norm of can. 87, § 1, can validly dispense the canonical form of matrimony of two Catholics.
R. Negative.

1983 CIC
Can. 87 §1 Whenever he judges that it contributes to their spiritual welfare, the diocesan Bishop can dispense the faithful from disciplinary laws, both universal laws and those particular laws made by the supreme ecclesiastical authority for his territory or his subjects. He cannot dispense from procedural laws or from penal laws, nor from those whose dispensation is specially reserved to the Apostolic See or to some other authority.
 
Hello,

I won’t bother to get into the details of the debate but, FYI, there is still some disagreement among canon lawyers about this question so your story–and the Bishop’s action–is not surprising. Asking the Holy See to grant the sanation is certainly the safer course. That being said, the majority opinion is that the bishop *can *grant the sanation in your circumstance.

Dan
I was thinking that it could also have been that although there had been discussions for decades, about how to handle the radical sanation or convalidation of a common-law marriage, there had never actually been a request before I made one so it could be that the Bishop did not want to make the final decision and sent it to the lawyers at the Vatican. That may be the explanation for the tribunal priest for saying that “they are scratching their heads…”
 
Wow, ladies and gents, I haven’t been on for a few days, and it looks like you didn’t need me to carry on the discussion.
Yes, I’ve been annuled twice. They don’t let you marry in the church without that.
Yes, my son is baptized in two churches. My ex-husband insisted on it, knowing my son was being raised Mormon. For peace, I let him.
Sorry, I don’t think the Mormons are going to hell. Nicely enough, they don’t think I am either, which is good.
Yes, I miss the sacraments. No, I don’t think I’ll be going back to my faith. I think it’s time I look for another. I did make a pretty big decision when I decided my soulmate was worth losing my church. I can’t explain what finding him means to me…and loving him as he is…and he loves me as I am…means everything to me.
Thank you all for your time. And some of your prayers. I pray for you as well.
peace
m1dsummoner
I did not see this post before my post. This shows the will: “I did make a pretty big decision when I decided my soulmate was worth losing my church.”
 
… If you can’t receive any sacraments, who in the world would keep attending? No one that I know and I’ve talked to some pretty devout Catholics.
Is that really what this is all about? Getting things?
 
The Bishop told us he could not do it so it had to go to the Vatican. I don’t know if there is a rule or which if either of them is incorrect.

It was explained to me that because a Bishop cannot grant dispensation for a defect when both are Catholic, that he also could not sanate it. Either way, I am happy. The Vatican has given me the nod.
Most likely the issue in your case was because it is a common law marriage it’s more difficult to pin point when the original consent was given. With a civil marriage one merely looks at the date recorded on the marriage license and can see it was witnessed by others. With common law the concept of original consent is more nebulous. A radical sanation retroactively dispenses the original impediments. This includes defect of form.

While the tribunal would be the best route, one thing that would be a non starter is if the couple says they will allow the children to chose whichever faith they want. If this is done before original consent is given then it is not possible to receive a radical sanation. The sanation retroactively dispenses impediments, but it does not “fix” defects of consent.
 
A radical sanation retroactively dispenses the original impediments. This includes defect of form.
40.png
Vico:
However I know for a fact that a bishop can grant a radical sanation (resulting from a lack of form) for two Catholics.
Vico – are you certain that lack of form can be remedied by a radical sanation? As Usige mentions, defects of form can be addressed by sanation. However, in a lack of form case, there isn’t an invalid marriage, per se, but rather, a ‘non-existant’ marriage. This, to the best of my knowledge, cannot be addressed by a sanation. This, as I understand it, is the situation of the OP – in her present situation, there isn’t an (invalid) sacramental marriage to which a sanation might apply.
 
40.png
Usige:
While the tribunal would be the best route, one thing that would be a non starter is if the couple says they will allow the children to chose whichever faith they want. If this is done before original consent is given then it is not possible to receive a radical sanation. The sanation retroactively dispenses impediments, but it does not “fix” defects of consent.
Usige,

Sanation doesn’t ‘fix’ a defect of consent, but as long as the defect is no longer present, a sanation has effects that reach back to the point that proper consent was present. In other words, it’s my understanding that, if defective consent was present on the wedding day (let’s suppose that one spouse didn’t believe that marriage was permanent), but that, if that spouse came to an understanding (e.g., that marriage is permanent), while the other spouse’s consent still perdured, then a sanation would be effective from that point forward (presuming that consent hadn’t been broken in the interim). In other words, as long as there was valid consent, by both spouses, from any point in time up through the time of the sanation, then the effect would kick in (effective the point of the consent).

It’s a difficult concept, and I don’t know that I’m presenting it well. Let me try it this way:
    1. Wedding day: groom consents, bride doesn’t.
    1. Some time later: husband consents, wife consents.
    1. Still later: husband no longer consents, wife still consents.
    1. Yet later: both husband and wife consent.
    1. Sanation is attempted.
As long as consent exists continuously between 4 and 5, then sanation is possible, and is effective beginning at 4.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top