Request....

[LoyalViews]

I am new here, and I am emailing tons of institutions and Shrines and religious orders requestion relics. Thats right, Relics. I know it is very, very difficult to get 1st Class Relics, so I am looking for 2nd Class, 3rd Class and the almost unkown 4th Class relics. Does anybody have any? I did come accross one website, called Mary’s Way, and they had 6 Miniature Icons, for free touched to relics of Jesus and Mary, but shipping was $24! So, I was wondering if anybody could send me one.

Thank you so much!
Also check out my blog if you want,
www.loyalviews.blogspot.com

 

[NPC]

I would discourage you from writing to/ e-mailing “tons of institutions and Shrines and religious orders” in order to find relics - if you have a devotion to a particular saint, then by all means look for a relic if you think it will aid your devotion; they are not “collectors items”, so make sure you’re not trying to make a collection for the sake of having a collection.

Fourth-class relics. Is there such a thing? Never heard of them myself, but happy to be enlightened.

About ten years ago the practice of giving first-class relics to the general public was stamped out by the Vatican. One who wishes to apply to the Reliquarium in Rome for a specific relic must have either a Nihil Obstat or a letter from the bishop. The letter must state that the relic will be used for veneration by the public or that it will be used in a church altar. So the chances of getting a genuine first-class relic are slim. Remember: Never pay money for a relic - Canon Law forbids the sale of relics, and many of the relics which you will see for sale are not genuine.

Third-class relics are easily obtainable. Most people have probably come across the prayer cards with the third-class relic of St (Padre) Pio, you may be charged for these cards, but it’s the card you’re paying for, not the relic… There are others too. Of course you can make your own third-class relics by, for example, touching a piece of cloth off a saint’s tomb…

Sorry I can’t help you with the Jesus & Mary relic… I own but one second-class relic myself, which I greatly cherish. It’s of a person very dear to me, who is on the path to canonisation by the Church. I pray for his canonisation every day, and his life is a constant inspiration for my own…

 

[giuseppeTO]

Believe it or not, the easiest place to obtain relics is eBay. You will find both first and second class relics. The prohibition eBay places on relics is that they not be bone or tissue relics. However, hair clippings would be an example of first class relics that would be acceptable. In all honesty, I do not believe it is an easy policy for them to enforce. In many first class relics, it is impossible to know or recognize the substance of the relic.

First class relics typically are assembled in a small round or oval glass case about the size of a Morgan Silver Dollar. The relic itself is held in place by tiny threads that secure it in the case and the threads come together behind the small reliquary and are tied together and affixed with a wax seal that has the imprint of the ecclesial authority (usually a Bishops or Cardinal’s seal) that guarantees the authenticity of the relic. To tamper with the relic, one would have to break the threads or the seal. The relic also (originally) came with a certificate of authenticity issued by someone with Imprimatur authority. This certificate is needed to publicly expose a relic for veneration in a church. These small reliquaries are frequently placed in a larger more elaborate and ornate reliquary for exposition. You will see them on the altar in traditional churches and chapels and they receive special incensation twice during a High Mass.

Since the modern church began to jettison its statues, art, and even relics (where would one put a reliquary in a modern post-conciliar church designed to resemble a multi-purpose room or bomb shelter?), a kind of cottage industry of dealers who rummage through the discarded items of closed and renovated churches has grown worldwide and many of these vendors hawk their prizes on the internet. Most understand what they have and post disclaimers saying that you are buying the reliquary and the relic is a “gift”.

I have a few first class relics (St. Maria Goretti, St. Pius X, and St. Veronica) which are in our small shrine at home. When we say the family rosary, we invoke the intercession of these Saints. Many Traditional Catholics, especially those who frequent or exclusively assist at the TLM, have relics in their home, and the traditional orders of priests have them in their rectories and priories. These devotionals do not appear to have a place in the modern churches, nor consequently, with modern Catholicism.

 

[NPC]

Since the modern church began to jettison its statues, art, and even relics (where would one put a reliquary in a modern post-conciliar church designed to resemble a multi-purpose room or bomb shelter?),

Excuse me?? The modern Church began to jettison its statues, art and relics…really? You must be better informed on the Vatican II documents than I, as I have never read that such things were to be discarded - perhaps you can enlighten me by providing a link to the relevant documents. Seriously. Thanks.

Surely if the Church did want to rid churches of statues and fine art, all churches would have been bound to obey such a decision - as far as I can see, the churches with fewer pieces of artwork and statues are in the minority. Granted, many “modern” churches have less shrines than older churches, but I honestly cannot remember seeing such a church which was not tastefully decorated in terms of statues and art.

For those churches who did discard fine artwork - yes, I do believe it was a mistake. There have been a lot of things done in several churches using Vatican II as an excuse. But to say that such actions were to be applied universally is unfounded and such churches do not “speak” for the Catholic Church, any more than a certain nun working at an abortion clinic is giving us the Church’s official position on abortion.

I have a few first class relics (St. Maria Goretti, St. Pius X, and St. Veronica) which are in our small shrine at home. When we say the family rosary, we invoke the intercession of these Saints. Many Traditional Catholics, especially those who frequent or exclusively assist at the TLM, have relics in their home, and the traditional orders of priests have them in their rectories and priories. These devotionals do not appear to have a place in the modern churches, nor consequently, with modern Catholicism.

Relics most certainly do have a place in modern churches. They are just not as easily obtainable as they have been in the past - and for good reason. There were many people who were building up massive collections of first-class relics merely for the sake of having them. They were often not being offered for veneration by the general public, which is why the Reliquarium in Rome now places tighter controls on the distribution of relics. I would also add that the relics of St Therese which have travelled to many countries of the world is very strong evidence that the tradition of venerating sacred relics is very much alive and well.

 

[giuseppeTO]

Excuse me?? The modern Church began to jettison its statues, art and relics…really? You must be better informed on the Vatican II documents than I, as I have never read that such things were to be discarded - perhaps you can enlighten me by providing a link to the relevant documents. Seriously. Thanks.

NPC - Perhaps I am better informed on V2 documents than you but this has nothing to do with V2 documents. In my experience, churches that have been built since, say 1970 are barren and ugly - bereft of the beauty that characterized Catholic Churches prior to that time. There are certainly some notable exceptions where new churches acquired the stained glass from other older churches that were being closed down and incorporated them into the building. A good example is St. John Neuman in Annapolis, MD that salvaged the beautiful stained glass windows from a church that closed in the Bronx. They now have a new church that looks like the inside of a convention hall with lovely stained glass windows. I have no idea who gave the order that henceforth, all Catholic Churches be no more ornate than a dentist’s waiting room but it was not something that the V2 Council fathers initiated.

Granted, many “modern” churches have less shrines than older churches, but I honestly cannot remember seeing such a church which was not tastefully decorated in terms of statues and art.

Obviously you are joking here but if you are not, I will probably not be able to convince you otherwise. Amazing that we would be using an adjective like “tasteful” to describe a church. Of particular note, if you haven’t checked them out, I would classify the New Cathedral in Los Angeles, as well as the new church at the Shrine at Fatima and the associate “artwork” as ugly.

Relics most certainly do have a place in modern churches. They are just not as easily obtainable as they have been in the past - and for good reason.

Again, you are either joking or extremely naive. I challenge you to find a church built since the 1970s with relics on display. You will find very, very few if any. As I explained previously, they can be had easily on eBay with authenticate certificates. Where do you think they come from? The Lutherans? They can only come from one source - the previous owners (Catholic Churches) who thought little enough of them to sell them, give them away, throw them away, whatever. Selling artwork and sacred vessels from closed churches is a thriving business. You will find no less than 15 businesses with large inventories on eBay. I have a 3 foot tall Infant of Prague with 5 sets of vestments with the original dedication plaque still on its base as a gift to the church on the occasion of someone’s 25th anniversary that was fished out of the dumpster of a church that closed in my area. As far as I know, nothing in the V2 documents ordered statues to be thrown in the dumpster or sacred relics to be discarded in whatever manner. They were choices made by folks whose perspective on such things is radically different than the previous generation(s) … many generations, in fact.

 

[Filioque]

With regard to obtaining relics on ebay. Be very wary. There are any number of forged documents, and relics that have been making their way out to the general public via ebay and other sources. Most recognizable are the alleged Ferrante Relics. Nicolas Ferrante CSSR was the Postulator General for the Cause of St. John Neumann of Philidelphia. Someone obtained an Authentic for one of the relics of Bl (at the time) Neumann, and copied it, thecas (the case that houses the relic) are sold for a nominal price in Roman Religious Goods stores. Thousands of fake relics were manufactured with documents to “support” them. You find them commonly on Ebay and other auction sites. Sometimes with and sometimes without the documents. Other relics are sold without documents making them hard to verify, and unable to be diplayed for public veneration.

Obtaining relics outside of normal channels both promotes the theft of relics for resale, and the forged relics trade. If modernist or liberal clergy are guilty of tossing out, selling or ridding their parishes of authentic relics, don’t contribute to the abuse by promoting the sales. There are a couple of good groups who can make sure that this tragedy is supressed, one being the Crusade for the Holy Relics, do a web search and you will find them. They do not distribute or sell relics. but promote the veneration of relics and educate people on what to do and not do when confronted with possibly authentic relics up for public sale.

 

[giuseppeTO]

With regard to obtaining relics on ebay. Be very wary. There are any number of forged documents, and relics that have been making their way out to the general public via ebay and other sources. Most recognizable are the alleged Ferrante Relics. Nicolas Ferrante CSSR was the Postulator General for the Cause of St. John Neumann of Philidelphia. Someone obtained an Authentic for one of the relics of Bl (at the time) Neumann, and copied it, thecas (the case that houses the relic) are sold for a nominal price in Roman Religious Goods stores. Thousands of fake relics were manufactured with documents to “support” them. You find them commonly on Ebay and other auction sites. Sometimes with and sometimes without the documents. Other relics are sold without documents making them hard to verify, and unable to be diplayed for public veneration.

Obtaining relics outside of normal channels both promotes the theft of relics for resale, and the forged relics trade. If modernist or liberal clergy are guilty of tossing out, selling or ridding their parishes of authentic relics, don’t contribute to the abuse by promoting the sales. There are a couple of good groups who can make sure that this tragedy is supressed, one being the Crusade for the Holy Relics, do a web search and you will find them. They do not distribute or sell relics. but promote the veneration of relics and educate people on what to do and not do when confronted with possibly authentic relics up for public sale.

Thanks Filioque … good advice.

 

[NPC]

NPC - Perhaps I am better informed on V2 documents than you but this has nothing to do with V2 documents. In my experience, churches that have been built since, say 1970 are barren and ugly - bereft of the beauty that characterized Catholic Churches prior to that time. There are certainly some notable exceptions where new churches acquired the stained glass from other older churches that were being closed down and incorporated them into the building. A good example is St. John Neuman in Annapolis, MD that salvaged the beautiful stained glass windows from a church that closed in the Bronx. They now have a new church that looks like the inside of a convention hall with lovely stained glass windows. I have no idea who gave the order that henceforth, all Catholic Churches be no more ornate than a dentist’s waiting room but it was not something that the V2 Council fathers initiated.

If it has nothing to do with Vatican II documents, then why do you keep referring to the post-conciliar church (1970’s onwards) as the marker for things going downhill in terms of art, statues, etc? So either the Church issued an offical document permitting or even encouraging less art, statues, display of relics, or as I have suggested earlier, some priests and bishops have misconstrued certain documents and used Vatican II as an excuse. Regarding stained glass - my local cathedral (which I’m not willing to name on the public forum) was designed before Vatican II, built during it, and completed in 1965. The finest Irish craftsmen were employed, and there are beautiful rose windows, the lower level windows depict scenes from the New Testament. The clerestory windows were not initially stained glass - they were frosted. The bishop raised funds in 1999 to have stained glass windows installed in the clerestory to celebrate the jubilee year. Again the finest Irish artists were employed to depict scenes from the Old Testament & the result was artwork of the highest quality. Ireland has a tradition of fine artwork and stained glass stemming from the famous Harry Clarke School which is very much alive and well.

Obviously you are joking here but if you are not, I will probably not be able to convince you otherwise. Amazing that we would be using an adjective like “tasteful” to describe a church. Of particular note, if you haven’t checked them out, I would classify the New Cathedral in Los Angeles, as well as the new church at the Shrine at Fatima and the associate “artwork” as ugly.

Not one of my comments were meant jokingly. To clarify, I was speaking of churches that I’ve seen personally. Yes, I’ve seen pictures of the cathedral in Los Angeles - I would admit that it’s not my cup of tea, but at the end of the day that’s my opinion. I’m sure there are others who would hold completely opposite opinions to you and I. Don’t get me wrong, in general I prefer the older, traditional churches, but I wouldn’t outrightly dismiss all modern church buildings.

I’m sorry that you seem to think that “barrenness” and little art and stained glass equates to ugliness and “bereft of beauty”. The cathedral to which I referred earlier would probably be regarded as minimalistic - there are not statues all over the place and the artwork is very simple. The stations of the cross are life size carvings on white Portland stone; at one end there is a huge mosaic of the crucifixion and at the base of the dome there is another fine mosaic (there is other artwork too, of course, but the beauty comes largely from the quality and attractiveness of the materials used both in construction & decoration). In fact the only thing that’s old about the cathedral is a triptych from the 17th century depicting Our Lady and the Blessed Trinity. So overall, there is simplicity, but it is one of the most beautiful churches I’ve ever set foot in. There is very often beauty to be found in simplicity - this, in my opinion, is true of many a post-Vatican II church. By the way, if you think you might like to visit this beautiful cathedral sometime, I’d be happy to give you the details in a p.m.

Again, you are either joking or extremely naive. I challenge you to find a church built since the 1970s with relics on display. You will find very, very few if any.

I know of at least two in my area which have relics on display for public veneration. The cathedral has recently acquired a first-class relic of St Therese of Lisieux, and it’s now on display in a reliquary at a shrine which was erected a few years ago when her relics were brought to the cathedral. Another church near me, completed in 1972 if I remember correctly, has a relic of St Oliver Plunkett. My local parish church, named after St Brigid does not have any of her relics on display - I imagine that they are very rare given that she’s a 4th century saint - but every year for her feast day, the parish does get one of her relics which is publicly displayed. This church was completed in the mid-1980’s.

 

[Filioque]

I’d also add that the very heart of the SSPX, Econe has a very modern looking sanctuary, quite barren, and autere. I was shocked the first time I entered it as the TLM chapel I attended before entering Econe had collected up most every statue and side altar that was removed from re-modeled churches in the Archdiocese that the priest or people could lay their hands on.

You can also see in Peter Anson and other author’s books from long prior to Vatican II very stark and modern Churches built prior to Vatican II. Even photos of tabernacles removed to the side or outside of the sanctuary, (and not in the private chapel fashion that was almost always the practice of Cathedrals and Major Basilcias) Once again, I was at first shocked to see these photographs in Pre-Concilliar Books. The Cathedral in San Francisco which has been likened to a Maytag washing machine agitator, was built after Vatican II, but designed prior to the first session of the Council. St. Basil’s in Los Angeles, is very modern, Constructed in 1970, it maintains the side altars, and statuary as well as was the final home of James Cardinal McItire, who did not allow the Pauline Mass into the Archdiocese. The plans for the Ultra Modern parish were approved by the Cardinal, who loved modern Art.

 

[NPC]

I just want to make this clarification, before someone else does it for me! I only noticed after it was too late to edit, but St Brigid obviously was not a 4th century saint! Her life spanned the second half of the 5th century, and she is believed to have died around the year 525.

 

[giuseppeTO]

If it has nothing to do with Vatican II documents, then why do you keep referring to the post-conciliar church (1970’s onwards) as the marker for things going downhill in terms of art, statues, etc? So either the Church issued an offical document permitting or even encouraging less art, statues, display of relics, or as I have suggested earlier, some priests and bishops have misconstrued certain documents and used Vatican II as an excuse.

I refer to the post-conciliar church in terms of the period of time after which this happened. As you stated, I would love to walk into one of these post modern churches and ask them by what authority/V2 document did they remove artwork, stained glass, tabernacle from the place of prominence to a place ‘off to the side’, etc. I believe it was the modernizing spirit undertaken after the council across the church, but never mandated, suggested, or even intimated by the Council. So, to your question, there was never a directive or document to modernize/minimize/remove art, statues that came from the Pope or the Council. The beauty of a church often moves one towards prayer. The spartan, multi-purpose room churches move people towards socializing.

I’m sorry that you seem to think that “barrenness” and little art and stained glass equates to ugliness and “bereft of beauty”. The cathedral to which I referred earlier would probably be regarded as minimalistic…

Usually when we make a change, it is for a reason. Do you ever wonder what the reason would be to reduce or eliminate ornate stained glass, statues, or relics as has been done in churches since the end of V2? I know why it was done during the Reformation.

I wouldn’t outrightly dismiss all modern church buildings.I know of at least two in my area which have relics on display…

I would say that if you are in a diocese of 4 churches, that would be great. I knew that there would inevitably be the posts about beautiful cathedrals built in the 60’s with great stained glass, and the posts about a Traditional Chapel that is spartan (like Econe). Of course, and I originally admitted, there are always exceptions. This modernization began earlier than the council as the modernizing spirit that drove the council began before the council. I was speaking about the majority of churches built since the council and especially those built in the last 20 years.

 

[Filioque]

I would say that if you are in a diocese of 4 churches, that would be great. I knew that there would inevitably be the posts about beautiful cathedrals built in the 60’s with great stained glass, and the posts about a Traditional Chapel that is spartan (like Econe). Of course, and I originally admitted, there are always exceptions. This modernization began earlier than the council as the modernizing spirit that drove the council began before the council. I was speaking about the majority of churches built since the council and especially those built in the last 20 years.

It is important for everyone to distinguish between an auterity exemplified for centuries by such Orders as the Trappists. Modern design that is in compliance with Catholic norms, like Econe and other Ecclesiastical buildings both prior to and since Vatican II, Just plain bad art, and a concerted effort by Protestants at the Refomration, as well as Modernists within the Catholic Church from the days of Pope St. Pius X to our own day.

The problems I see among those on the extreme left and right is that they both tend to paint with a broad brush, and condemn everyone that does not reflect their own ideas absolutly. This is far from what the Catholic Church has always done. Catholics have not been ossified in practice, and local customs, be they liturgical, artistic, or devotional. The Church has for centuries practiced the ideas of Unity in Essentials, and a certain amount of flexibility for non-essentials.

 

[giuseppeTO]

It is important for everyone to distinguish between an auterity exemplified for centuries by such Orders as the Trappists. Modern design that is in compliance with Catholic norms, like Econe and other Ecclesiastical buildings both prior to and since Vatican II, Just plain bad art, and a concerted effort by Protestants at the Refomration, as well as Modernists within the Catholic Church from the days of Pope St. Pius X to our own day.

The problems I see among those on the extreme left and right is that they both tend to paint with a broad brush, and condemn everyone that does not reflect their own ideas absolutly. This is far from what the Catholic Church has always done. Catholics have not been ossified in practice, and local customs, be they liturgical, artistic, or devotional. The Church has for centuries practiced the ideas of Unity in Essentials, and a certain amount of flexibility for non-essentials.

Well said, F- I take particular issue with bad art or starkness for starkness’ sake. If I walk into Our lady of Victory Basilica in Buffalo, NY, I am moved to take out my rosary and mediate on the mysteries. It draws one to prayer. Our previous diocesan church in Annapolis MD which was built in 1982 I believe, was all red brick on the inside and no ornamentation whatsoever - not even a crucifix except for the shape of a cross formed in the backdrop of the altar (table) formed by highlighting in gold where four blocks of marble came together. The Blessed Sacrament was in a sort of alcove to the far right, invisible to most of the congregation. There were irregular windows with stained glass imagery that was supposed to somehow represent the Holy Family but none of the Holy family members that I know of were recognizable - except perhaps to Picasso, should he have seen it. Nothing to inspire a deeper level of prayer in that place. I would characterize that as being more the modern norm than the exception and for that to happen, there had to be the collusion of both bishops and priests. Very sad.

 

[Filioque]

Well said, F- I take particular issue with bad art or starkness for starkness’ sake. If I walk into Our lady of Victory Basilica in Buffalo, NY, I am moved to take out my rosary and mediate on the mysteries. It draws one to prayer. Our previous diocesan church in Annapolis MD which was built in 1982 I believe, was all red brick on the inside and no ornamentation whatsoever - not even a crucifix except for the shape of a cross formed in the backdrop of the altar (table) formed by highlighting in gold where four blocks of marble came together. The Blessed Sacrament was in a sort of alcove to the far right, invisible to most of the congregation. There were irregular windows with stained glass imagery that was supposed to somehow represent the Holy Family but none of the Holy family members that I know of were recognizable - except perhaps to Picasso, should he have seen it. Nothing to inspire a deeper level of prayer in that place. I would characterize that as being more the modern norm than the exception and for that to happen, there had to be the collusion of both bishops and priests. Very sad.

While I would assume from your postings that we have similar tastes in Church Architecture and Ornimentaion, I think we both need to look into the Authentic Historical Development of the Church. In the earliest days of the Church the crucifixion was rarely depicted, The Cross unadorned with the Crucified Christ was little known, the closest symbol we have is the Ships Anchor, which represents both the Cross and the Hope we have because of Christ’s cross. With the legalization of the Church, (not to be confused with the later imposition of the Church as the State Religion) some pagan uses were Christianized, (as opposed to the Protestant fabrication that the Church was Paganized) So statues of our Lord, and the Saints were adopted when Bacilicas were donated to the Church. What to do with a heavy Statue already in place? Bless it and name it for a Mystery of our Lord’s life or a Saint. Change the Pagan to Christian, not the Christian to Pagan. But still there was an aversion to the Cross, or Crucifix, the most ignoble manner of death imposed by Pagan Rome.

Later we see lights, (candles or oil lamps) placed on the altar itself, and a Cross, later Crucifix used on the altar. So those things we see as authentically Catholic on an Altar or in the Sanctuary were in fact later developments, and not essential to the Faith. Removing them can, (but does not always) pose a problem. Just as we see in the Liturgy of Good friday, where the stripped altar is vested in a very barren manner, altar cloths, two modest candlesticks, and a crucifix, (veiled) we don’t see much ornamentation and we see a barren altar that is “vested” just for the Liturgy, more in keeping with the earliest liturgies of the Church.

We cannot however overlook that the Liturgical Rites that came down to us until 1962 were developed organically, in order to combat errors in belief and teaching from Protestants, and others who prior to the Reformation called into question authentic Catholic belief. We also have the guidance of Ven. Pope Pius XII, in his encyclical on the Sacred Liturgy. We have the great scholarly works of the greats in the Liturgical Movement, Fr. Josef Jungmann, SJ, Dom Garangere, and Fr. Pius Parch. among others.

Now the problems as I see the interpretation of what Fr. Jungmann et alia wrote is that there are those who ignored Pope Pius XII’s instructions to be wary of Litugical Archioligism, or a misunderstanding of it. It is also difficult if we do not have the Spiritual Gifts to read the state of the soul of those who saw a need to return to the practices of the Early Church. It is hard to tell if everyone involved did so will malice, or if they were led to believe that this was a true restoration.

While it may seem to us that rather than scraping off the barnicles, removed the hull, leaving only the framework of the Liturgy, and the Liturgical envionment. Although we must admit, even with the most barebones liturgy and surroundings if the Rubrics imposed by the Holy See were followed, the Mass is both valid and licit. When one ignores the directives of the Holy See, (TLM or NO) the Mass may be valid, but only under the narrowest of exceptions is it licit.

Well I’ve posted all over the map on this one, but as the Enviornment, Rite and Intention

 

[giuseppeTO]

Now the problems as I see the interpretation of what Fr. Jungmann et alia wrote is that there are those who ignored Pope Pius XII’s instructions to be wary of Litugical Archioligism, or a misunderstanding of it. It is also difficult if we do not have the Spiritual Gifts to read the state of the soul of those who saw a need to return to the practices of the Early Church. It is hard to tell if everyone involved did so will malice, or if they were led to believe that this was a true restoration.

I honestly wish I possessed your faith that this modernization of both the liturgy and the environment was done to return to the practices of the Early Church, and not as a concession to outside (of the Church) pressures to clear the way for a reunification with Protestant sects (I pray to be reunited with them, but not to become them). I could accept theformer if done, as you suggested, in an organic ordered fashion. I fear that we have done the opposite of fixing whatever was presumed to be broken.

 

[Filioque]

I honestly wish I possessed your faith that this modernization of both the liturgy and the environment was done to return to the practices of the Early Church, and not as a concession to outside (of the Church) pressures to clear the way for a reunification with Protestant sects (I pray to be reunited with them, but not to become them). I could accept theformer if done, as you suggested, in an organic ordered fashion. I fear that we have done the opposite of fixing whatever was presumed to be broken.

Then you missed one of the important aspects of my posting. I have not justified, nor judged the modernization, or stated that I believe or know the inner workings of the hearts of those who imposed or abetted the changes. I also do not have the jurisdiction to pronounce on them, only the ability to pray for them and all the Church.

The crux as I see it is that at both extremes the judgement, which is the sole jurisdiction of the Church and not our own, nor those opinions of individuals on the left or right, (Lay or Clerical) but the magesterium. To express our concerns is one thing but to become Judge, and Jury is not our own. If we believe that our Lord holds to the promise that He will never abandon His Church, we need to spend more time praying for a return to normal times, (which may if God wills it include a reform of the abuses to the NO). All in all our prayers need to be humbly, Fiat Voluntas Tua.

 

[LoyalViews]

This is kinda late, but this was my first thread started, and anyhow…wow.