Requiem

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Not_Sure_1

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While researching Latin prayers I came across the fact that the neither the ‘Dies Irae’ nor the ‘Libera Me, Domine’ is in the OF mass?

Why is that? Why would they remove these moving prayers for the soul of the deceased, considering how effective and how necessary constant prayer is for the Church Suffering?
 
The Dies Irae has been moved to being a hymn for the 34th week of Ordinary Time for the LoTH so it’s still around in a manner of speaking.
 
Not_Sure said:
While researching Latin prayers I came across the fact that the neither the ‘Dies Irae’ nor the ‘Libera Me, Domine’ is in the OF mass?

Why is that? Why would they remove these moving prayers for the soul of the deceased, considering how effective and how necessary constant prayer is for the Church Suffering?
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I haven’t time to dig them up again, but the architect of the modern Mass wrote that he wanted to remove things that appeared to him to be “negative.” Having just attended my first reqieum Mass in the traditional form, I can say that while the Mass was really comforting, the hymn Dies Irae is awe-inspiring and scary. I think many people need that once in a while to take religious seriously, but obviously Abp. Bugnini did not.

Considering how many old prayers were removed from the Mass in 1969, it’s not surprising to me that these didn’t make the cut.
 
Rich_C said:
I haven’t time to dig them up again, but the architect of the modern Mass wrote that he wanted to remove things that appeared to him to be “negative.” Having just attended my first reqieum Mass in the traditional form, I can say that while the Mass was really comforting, the hymn Dies Irae is awe-inspiring and scary. I think many people need that once in a while to take religious seriously, but obviously Abp. Bugnini did not.

Considering how many old prayers were removed from the Mass in 1969, it’s not surprising to me that these didn’t make the cut.
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I think the issue isn’t so much that we need to remove things that are “scary” from the Requiem Mass; it’s more perhaps a concern that scaring people when trying to comfort people over the loss of a loved one isn’t perhaps the best strategy or time.

Note too that Abp. Bugnini did not make the changes alone. In addition to leading a committee, the changes were approved at the highest level (i.e. Pope Paul VI). The same thing with the imprecatory verses removed from the psalms for the LoTH; the committee was of mixed feelings on this, but Paul VI insisted.

Too many people demonize the man for single-handedly ruining the liturgy while in reality he was chairing a committee. Granted he gave it some direction, but the changes were approved at the highest level.
 
But the Requiem Mass is not for “comforting” those left behind, but rather prayers for the soul of the deceased. The OF Mass changed most of that philosophy. Notice that in the OF its called a funeral Mass not a Requiem.
 
corsair said:
But the Requiem Mass is not for “comforting” those left behind, but rather prayers for the soul of the deceased. The OF Mass changed most of that philosophy. Notice that in the OF its called a funeral Mass not a Requiem.
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Isn’t a Funeral Mass a Requiem for an individual deceased?
 
This reminds me I need to make a will which specifically addresses the desire for a TLM Requiem Mass, no Protty funeral (family is all Protestant), etc.

Oh, and everyone should have a great time at the Wake.

…No beer emoticons!? :mad:
 
TrueLight said:
What are funeral services like in your tradition?
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The Rite of Christian Burial (funeral rite) is perhaps one of the most profound and beautiful of the services in Byzantine-Slav tradition. Scripturally, the service take us from the Fall all the way up to the moments before the Perfect Sacrifice. It is both a lament and reminder of the joyful hope of the Resurrection. There is also a version taken during the Pascal season, fully celebrating the glorious Resurrection, which is beyond memorable (as the families of the deceased would share).

The true custom is to take the funeral rite alone, although for many years it was taken with the Divine Liturgy. This is quickly being eliminated in practice. It is more proper that (i) a Parastas, or memorial service, is done at funeral home and (ii) the Rite of Christian Burial is celebrated in church and completed at the cemetery. The rite for a priest is done over three days. A Divine Liturgy for the faithful departed would then be traditionally celebrated on the 40th day, and on anniversary dates thereafter.

The deceased of our parish families are also remembered on the five All Souls Saturdays celebrated in connection with the Lenten and Paschal cycle.

Our folk ways have it that cantors are always anxious to train their replacements, to ensure someone will be ready to chant the Rite of Christian Burial for them with proper dignity.
 
OraLabora said:
I think the issue isn’t so much that we need to remove things that are “scary” from the Requiem Mass; it’s more perhaps a concern that scaring people when trying to comfort people over the loss of a loved one isn’t perhaps the best strategy or time.
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It’s only scary because it speaks directly about death and judgment. Despite being unpleasant, aren’t those two of the most fundamental and important things to pray about at a funeral?
OraLabora said:
Note too that Abp. Bugnini did not make the changes alone. In addition to leading a committee, the changes were approved at the highest level (i.e. Pope Paul VI). The same thing with the imprecatory verses removed from the psalms for the LoTH; the committee was of mixed feelings on this, but Paul VI insisted.

Too many people demonize the man for single-handedly ruining the liturgy while in reality he was chairing a committee. Granted he gave it some direction, but the changes were approved at the highest level.
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When it comes to popes, if I haven’t got anything good to say on a subject, I don’t say anything.
 
Rich_C said:
It’s only scary because it speaks directly about death and judgment. Despite being unpleasant, aren’t those two of the most fundamental and important things to pray about at a funeral?
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I’m not really going to argue the point. I suggested a reason why it may have been removed. The liturgy “is what it is” and unlike most traditionalists I won’t berate the modern liturgy, I will however criticize abuse of the modern liturgy. As the cliché goes, it is what it is. The Dies Irae at least has not been lost into the mists of time, it’s still the hymn for Vigils, Lauds and Vespers of the 34th week of Ordinary Time. True that makes it less than frequently heard, unless one is fond of frequenting Benedictine abbeys that still use Latin, of which there are many and of which the abbey I’m affiliated with is one. I’ve also chanted it at an OF funeral, at the deceased’s request. I guess that constitutes an abuse as it isn’t in the modern liturgy… but I was not the liturgical planner, just a chorister. FWIW, I think it is a beautiful poem and would have preferred if it had been retained. It wasn’t and I’m not going to lose sleep over it. I love chanting it during the 34th week of OT though, when I chant the LOTH. It’s not a particularly easy hymn to chant.
Rich_C said:
When it comes to popes, if I haven’t got anything good to say on a subject, I don’t say anything.
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I don’t think I said anything bad about Paul VI. I said he approved of the changes. It was his decision to make, and he had the authority to make it. As a Benedictine I owe my obedience to the Holy Father at all times. Even when he imposes changes that I do not like.
 
OraLabora said:
I’m not really going to argue the point. I suggested a reason why it may have been removed. The liturgy “is what it is” and unlike most traditionalists I won’t berate the modern liturgy, I will however criticize abuse of the modern liturgy. As the cliché goes, it is what it is. The Dies Irae at least has not been lost into the mists of time, it’s still the hymn for Vigils, Lauds and Vespers of the 34th week of Ordinary Time. True that makes it less than frequently heard, unless one is fond of frequenting Benedictine abbeys that still use Latin, of which there are many and of which the abbey I’m affiliated with is one. I’ve also chanted it at an OF funeral, at the deceased’s request. I guess that constitutes an abuse as it isn’t in the modern liturgy… but I was not the liturgical planner, just a chorister. FWIW, I think it is a beautiful poem and would have preferred if it had been retained. It wasn’t and I’m not going to lose sleep over it. I love chanting it during the 34th week of OT though, when I chant the LOTH. It’s not a particularly easy hymn to chant.
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It’s not really worth debating on the Internet, either way. I almost resisted the temptation myself. I’m weak.
OraLabora said:
I don’t think I said anything bad about Paul VI. I said he approved of the changes. It was his decision to make, and he had the authority to make it. As a Benedictine I owe my obedience to the Holy Father at all times. Even when he imposes changes that I do not like.
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I never made such an accusation, far from it. I understand the vows you’re under. I just meant what I said: popes are above my reproach.
 
ByzCathCantor said:
The Rite of Christian Burial (funeral rite) is perhaps one of the most profound and beautiful of the services in Byzantine-Slav tradition. Scripturally, the service take us from the Fall all the way up to the moments before the Perfect Sacrifice. It is both a lament and reminder of the joyful hope of the Resurrection. There is also a version taken during the Pascal season, fully celebrating the glorious Resurrection, which is beyond memorable (as the families of the deceased would share).

The true custom is to take the funeral rite alone, although for many years it was taken with the Divine Liturgy. This is quickly being eliminated in practice. It is more proper that (i) a Parastas, or memorial service, is done at funeral home and (ii) the Rite of Christian Burial is celebrated in church and completed at the cemetery. The rite for a priest is done over three days. A Divine Liturgy for the faithful departed would then be traditionally celebrated on the 40th day, and on anniversary dates thereafter.

The deceased of our parish families are also remembered on the five All Souls Saturdays celebrated in connection with the Lenten and Paschal cycle.

Our folk ways have it that cantors are always anxious to train their replacements, to ensure someone will be ready to chant the Rite of Christian Burial for them with proper dignity.
Click to expand...
I love the tones used. Really fits the moment.
 
Rich_C said:
It’s not really worth debating on the Internet, either way. I almost resisted the temptation myself. I’m weak.
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It’s much more fun to be weak in front of temptation when it involves a Belgian Trappist beer 😃
 
OraLabora said:
It’s much more fun to be weak in front of temptation when it involves a Belgian Trappist beer 😃
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Yes drinking beats the Internet any day of week, on that we agree. But I’d have a bit of Irish whiskey, myself.
 
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