"Required to believe". An odd concept?

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There is a difference between being required to believe and compelled to believe. You can choose to believe what is required but that does not mean you are compelled to believe it. Converts do not usually examine every dogma before deciding to become a Catholic. They decide it is the Apostolic Church founded by Jesus and accept her doctrines because it is reasonable to believe the teaching of the true Church. Although faith becomes a way of life the element of choice never entirely disappears. Sometimes a person may wonder whether a particular doctrine is true but usually that is not a sufficient reason to leave the Church. As Cardinal Newman observed, “Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt”!
What many fail to understand is that Faith itself precedes religion. Faith is a surrender to the divine nature of everything before your notion of God is broken down into a belief system. This is why God loves people of all “religions” for in fact many have surrendered to his will without the formal dogma and doctrines guarded by religions. When you approach religion from this vantage point you can be ok in its real and human limitations and still gain from the wisdom of the saints and rituals preserved within the church.
 
What many fail to understand is that Faith itself precedes religion. Faith is a surrender to the divine nature of everything before your notion of God is broken down into a belief system. This is why God loves people of all “religions” for in fact many have surrendered to his will without the formal dogma and doctrines guarded by religions. When you approach religion from this vantage point you can be ok in its real and human limitations and still gain from the wisdom of the saints and rituals preserved within the church.
 
What many fail to understand is that Faith itself precedes religion. Faith is a surrender to the divine nature of everything before your notion of God is broken down into a belief system. This is why God loves people of all “religions” for in fact many have surrendered to his will without the formal dogma and doctrines guarded by religions. When you approach religion from this vantage point you can be ok in its real and human limitations and still gain from the wisdom of the saints and rituals preserved within the church.
🙂
 
What many fail to understand is that Faith itself precedes religion. Faith is a surrender to the divine nature of everything before your notion of God is broken down into a belief system. This is why God loves people of all “religions” for in fact many have surrendered to his will without the formal dogma and doctrines guarded by religions. When you approach religion from this vantage point you can be ok in its real and human limitations and still gain from the wisdom of the saints and rituals preserved within the church.
 
What many fail to understand is that Faith itself precedes religion. Faith is a surrender to the divine nature of everything before your notion of God is broken down into a belief system. This is why God loves people of all “religions” for in fact many have surrendered to his will without the formal dogma and doctrines guarded by religions. When you approach religion from this vantage point you can be ok in its real and human limitations and still gain from the wisdom of the saints and rituals preserved within the church.
 
Faith, if it is to be real, substantial, progressing, continuing, of duration, must be a cognitive act, although the desire is the basis for final acceptance. Many of the great saints have maintained that the desire, a priori, comes from God Himself. I agree with this idea from my own experience. The desire comes in, what one might call, little whisperings, little events, longings . . . Then searchings. We may seek wisdom from various faith systems. The intellect instruvcts us to base our decision to accept a particular faith by relying not just on our own prejudices (like choosing a faith because it fits in with one’s llifestyle) but upon the witnesses from times past (as the apostles were) as well as those witnesses (often friends and associates) who speak for their faith in the present.

I disagree that we are all born as “soft atheists.” Until the full capacity of cognition is apparent, children tend to believe that “somebody made me” and ask “who made me?”
That is my experience with my own children who asked that question around the age of three. Explaining that God made us seems to answer their concern. They also ask what will happen to me when I die? (Most have experienced the death of a grandparent or pet).
As I mentioned in a post above, I had atheistic inclinations even after two of my children were born. To answer their questions, at first I could only give them dull, depressing answers about being buried in the ground and that is the end of story. However, they kept pressing me until I started to re-think and re-examine my life and finally come to the conclustion that, yes, there is a God who loves and cares for us and that we will be with Him in Heaven someday if we desire and follow where He leads. I could finally givve my children a positive, happy, healthy, wonderful answer. 🙂
 
If that is so, then atheism is a belief which lacks imagination and feelings. 😛
Leaving aside for a moment the fact that atheism is a lack of a belief – and not a belief itself – what my words suggest is that atheists generally don’t consider imagination and feeling to be a good indicator of truth for claims about the world outside of our heads.
You just have not experienced God (or have ignored or suppressed him), just as some people have not experienced (or suppress experiences of) love, happiness, freedom, or alcohol. You can read all you like about God and Jesus and all that, but until you experience Him, you’ll probably understand God about as much as you (probably) understand cuneiform.
See? This is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the whole “you have to open your heart to god before you can believe in him” nonsense.

And then a Hindu will tell me that I just haven’t experienced Shiva yet, or an ancient Greek would tell me that I just haven’t experienced Zeus yet, or a Norse Viking would tell me that I just haven’t experienced Wotan yet, or a ghost believer would tell me that I just haven’t experienced spooky ghosts yet, or a believer in psychics would tell me that I’ve just never experienced ESP, etc., etc., etc.

But in no other field besides religion/“spirituality” do you need to believe in something first in order to accept evidence of it. I don’t need to “open my heart” to the idea of black holes or “personally experience” them to have very, very good evidence that they exist. I don’t need to “personally experience” a trip to Asia to have very, very good evidence that Asia is a real place with real people.
 
To answer their questions, at first I could only give them dull, depressing answers about being buried in the ground and that is the end of story.
Well, this says a lot more about your own mental state and your ability to handle children than it says about anything else.

What you should do is show kids a picture from a time when they weren’t born, and you say, “Look – here was a time when you didn’t exist yet.” And then you explain that just as there was a time when they didn’t exist yet, there will one day again be a time when they don’t exist.

See that? Not so scary or sad. It’s the way of things. You didn’t exist for billions and billions of years, and after your death, you’ll go right back to not existing. You happen to be alive for a little while, and you owe it to yourself to make the best of this time.

But then you tell them that even though people go away, they leave behind all the nice things they’ve done and all that they’ve accomplished for other people to enjoy. And when a grandparent dies, you show them all the pictures and stories and legacy of that person, and you try to convey the message that even though we’ll miss the person in question, there’s really no reason to be depressed about it.
However, they kept pressing me until I started to re-think and re-examine my life and finally come to the conclustion that, yes, there is a God who loves and cares for us and that we will be with Him in Heaven someday if we desire and follow where He leads. I could finally givve my children a positive, happy, healthy, wonderful answer. 🙂
So you changed your mind because the truth wasn’t acceptable to children, and you kept thinking about it until you came up with an answer that would delight their little childhood imaginations?

What a glimpse into the religious mind.

I don’t think that this is the proper way to approach the truth or falsehood of claims.
 
What many fail to understand is that Faith itself precedes religion. Faith is a surrender to the divine nature of everything before your notion of God is broken down into a belief system. This is why God loves people of all “religions” for in fact many have surrendered to his will without the formal dogma and doctrines guarded by religions. When you approach religion from this vantage point you can be ok in its real and human limitations and still gain from the wisdom of the saints and rituals preserved within the church.
Sorry, something went amuck!!! not sure why most post is in here so many times!!!
 
As my fine Lutheran pastor says: a faith with no flexibility is not a faith, it’s a prison.
There is plenty of flexibility in the Catholic faith. Not everyone has to be a Rosary-swingin’ Bible-thumper like me. 😃
 
Well, this says a lot more about your own mental state and your ability to handle children than it says about anything else.
Hey, don’t be so hard on me! You don’t know anything about my mental state although you attempt to psychologize about it and my ability working with children. You have ABSOLUTELY no idea. However, I’m not going to get into personal stuff. My point was the same point made similarly by St. Augustine. “Our hearts are restless until they rest in Thee, O Lord.” In other words, God calls us to Himself, in many ways, especially in the “whisper” in our hearts/souls/intellects. We may not respond consciously at first, but there is a longing. It’s built in. Why are you on CAF? Are you searching for something beyond the beyond? Are you here to “convert” Catholics and other Christians? To what? To nothingness? For that is what atheism is, how atheists prefer to think of their “religion” or lack thereof.
What you should do is show kids a picture from a time when they weren’t born, and you say, “Look – here was a time when you didn’t exist yet.” And then you explain that just as there was a time when they didn’t exist yet, there will one day again be a time when they don’t exist.
Thanks for the educational lesson. “Show kids a picture from a time when weren’t born.” How about a sonogram? Anyhow, the fact that they DO exist at a particular time in God’s plan, why would they cease to exist? There is that part of us that is God-ness (for lack of a better word–calling all theologians!). It’s true for believers and nonbelievers, or we wouldn’t be able to exist. Yes, God keeps us in existence. He’s reaching out to us whether we like it or not, and whether we even realize it or not.
See that? Not so scary or sad. It’s the way of things. You didn’t exist for billions and billions of years, and after your death, you’ll go right back to not existing. You happen to be alive for a little while, and you owe it to yourself to make the best of this time.
Sure, I’ll make the best of this time because I have good reason to! God sees all. He will judge all. But this is the time of Mercy. Use it to your benefit.
But then you tell them that even though people go away, they leave behind all the nice things they’ve done and all that they’ve accomplished for other people to enjoy. And when a grandparent dies, you show them all the pictures and stories and legacy of that person, and you try to convey the message that even though we’ll miss the person in question, there’s really no reason to be depressed about it.
I agree with all you said in that paragraph. Christians have no reason to be depressed about the passing of another Christian into eternal life, yet, of course, we miss that person and grieve. But in the way St. Paul reminds us that we don’t despair since we will see each other again. So . . . the Christian has hope, REAL HOPE and much to look forward to.
So you changed your mind because the truth wasn’t acceptable to children, and you kept thinking about it until you came up with an answer that would delight their little childhood imaginations?
Uhhh . . . there’s a LOT more to the story. My children were a catalyst, you might say, that speeded up my conversion story, but they were not the first chapter to the story. Once I wrote my conversion story on CAF some time ago. Btw, do I detect a slight mockery in your tone? Tsk, tsk.
What a glimpse into the religious mind.
I don’t think that this is the proper way to approach the truth or falsehood of claims.
You’re lacking in something. Go figure.
 
Why are you on CAF?
I enjoy writing about this stuff. If my posts help one or two people sort out their own thoughts on the subject, then all the better.
“Show kids a picture from a time when weren’t born.” How about a sonogram?
I was thinking more like showing them a picture from when their parents were dating or when their parents were little kids. Show them that there was a time when they didn’t exist.

It’s the concept of “not existing” that’s the stumbling block for a lot of people, so the first thing you have to do is to establish that at one time, every person did “not exist.” Not existing is nothing to be afraid of.
Sure, I’ll make the best of this time because I have good reason to! God sees all. He will judge all.
I submit that even those who don’t believe in a god who “sees” and “judges” all have good reasons to lead what is typically referred to as a “good life.”
But in the way St. Paul reminds us that we don’t despair since we will see each other again. So . . . the Christian has hope, REAL HOPE and much to look forward to.
Honestly, I find the idea that we will always exist to be a thought that very much devalues this life. What’s the point in telling the people you care about how much you care about them if you’re going to have forever to do it some day? What’s the point of enjoying all that life has to offer if you sincerely believe – based on no evidence whatsoever – that you have an eternity of unimaginably great experiences waiting for you after death?

What’s the value of a life that’s just a prelude for something “better” that you imagine is going to happen to you?

I can tell you that accepting the reality that there probably isn’t some “other life” is something that makes every single experience in this life – the only life – feel a heck of a lot more precious.
Btw, do I detect a slight mockery in your tone?
You’re lacking in something. Go figure.
What was that about tone?
 
What many fail to understand is that Faith itself precedes religion. Faith is a surrender to the divine nature of everything before your notion of God is broken down into a belief system. This is why God loves people of all “religions” for in fact many have surrendered to his will without the formal dogma and doctrines guarded by religions. When you approach religion from this vantage point you can be ok in its real and human limitations and still gain from the wisdom of the saints and rituals preserved within the church.
You are right. The wisdom of humanity is evident in the universal recognition down the centuries that we do not exist accidentally but as the result of Love…
 
Leaving aside for a moment the fact that atheism is a lack of a belief – and not a belief itself –
But hard atheism is. It is a positive assertion that no ruling deity that created the Earth exists. There’s a difference between saying “YOUR god doesn’t exist” and “NO ONE’S gods exist at all”. You can’t prove that you are correct. Mind, I would be dogged to find a piece of evidence that you would accept for the existence of God, but you still believe something which may or may not be true without any conclusive evidence. That is the DEFINITION of faith.
what my words suggest is that atheists generally don’t consider imagination and feeling to be a good indicator of truth for claims about the world outside of our heads.
Fair enough. Science has helped us find out a lot about nature and its workings. I’m not denying that. But what of government? Civilization? Things which chemicals and “if x, then y” reactions don’t control (or at least don’t HAVE to)? What, then, are your beliefs?
See? This is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the whole “you have to open your heart to god before you can believe in him” nonsense.

And then a Hindu will tell me that I just haven’t experienced Shiva yet, or an ancient Greek would tell me that I just haven’t experienced Zeus yet, or a Norse Viking would tell me that I just haven’t experienced Wotan yet, or a ghost believer would tell me that I just haven’t experienced spooky ghosts yet, or a believer in psychics would tell me that I’ve just never experienced ESP, etc., etc., etc.

But in no other field besides religion/“spirituality” do you need to believe in something first in order to accept evidence of it. I don’t need to “open my heart” to the idea of black holes or “personally experience” them to have very, very good evidence that they exist. I don’t need to “personally experience” a trip to Asia to have very, very good evidence that Asia is a real place with real people.
I’m not saying you have to open your heart to God. God can and will find you and speak to you, even if you don’t want Him to. And you are free to ignore Him. (After all, He’s not a Mormon. Ninjashoes Mixed Martial Arts)

But God comes to YOU first. Though it doesn’t always seem so, rarely is it the other way around. And if it seems he never does come to you in this life, remember that while your body may die, your soul will live on afterward. And you’re practically guaranteed to be bathed in God there.

So don’t worry. Religion and spirituality’s not about “reaching out” to God by your own motives. You couldn’t by yourself. That would be like an atom sitting on the floor reaching out to latch onto a kitchen cabinet miles above it. 🙂
 
Well you don’t “have to” do anything. But be the person in the body you are and die.

What you chose to do is an entirely different story.

But at some point I would hope it dawns on you that mans existance, Is the war of good and evil. And it plays out daily before our eyes. Regardless of what any individual thinks.

The only real question then becomes, where do you fit into this battle?
 
– based on no evidence whatsoever – that you have an eternity of unimaginably great experiences waiting for you after death?

No evidence whatsoever? Then who was Jesus Christ? Do tell. And where is your evidence. Christians have countless evidence. Where’s yours?
 
– based on no evidence whatsoever – that you have an eternity of unimaginably great experiences waiting for you after death?

No evidence whatsoever? Then who is Jesus Christ? How do you know? Where is your evidence?
 
No evidence whatsoever? Then who was Jesus Christ? Do tell. And where is your evidence. Christians have countless evidence. Where’s yours?
You will discover that the argument that there is no evidence lacks evidence! 🙂
 
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