"Required to believe". An odd concept?

[4Horsemen]

=Light1111;7166139]My maternal grandmother lived with us when I was a child. She was a highly devotional Roman Catholic. She instilled in me a belief that we can receive communications from Angels, Saints, even God, and that the number 1111 is one pure route through which communication can flow. Since her death, I have seen this number “at random” with great frequency. I also think of it as her way of letting me know she is still with me, still “alive,” still filled with love. It is comforting to me. I realize she was a bit avant-garde in this belief, as it is technically not the sort of thing a Catholic believes, but she did have a bit of an eclectic view of one’s relationship with God, as she was Southern Italian, and influences apart from the Catholic Church were a part of her rearing. She didn’t distinguish between ideas, saying “This is Catholic and this is an Italian belief,” to her, all she believed was evidence of God’s hand. In any case, I’m always grateful when I’m reminded of her, as I miss her very much and am so grateful to know she lives in peace and love in Heaven.

Maybe I should call myself 1111Horsemen.

 

[4Horsemen]

I’m sorry – I have no idea how to multi-quote, or how to make the quotes I’m responding to appear separate from my new additions! Maybe someone can give me a mini-tutorial! Sorry for the confusing mess above!

You might want to practice on the thread “test update.” Let’s see if I can send a link.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=187981

Just note how to write the word Quote (beginning) and /Quote (end) but add the ] surrounding the word. Hopefully, that helps some. Others may be able to explain it better. Just trying things from the interesting stufff above is cool. Have fun!

 

[4Horsemen]

, which would mean that the gospels were the oral legend of a cult for decades before being written down by non-eyewitnesses, which is exactly what I’ve been saying.

So what!!! The fact of the matter is that Jesus rose from the dead. His body was not in the tomb. AND He appeared to Mary Magdalene and His apostles and disciples for 40 days and did more miraculous deeds. If you read the gospels, as I encourage you previously, you will see all the incredible healings Jesus did. He took pity on the people and healed them who had faith. “If your faith is the size of a mustard seed” Jeus tells us, you will be able to move mountains. Taking the step into faith is like walking out of prison–it’s a feeling of freedom, joy, coming home. (“Rome is home” btw!)

It was you who submitted the text’s own claim to be divinely inspired as evidence that the text is reliable. If you are retracting that argument, that would be a good move.

Ok, so it’s not logically presented. It is circular. HOWEVER, just reading the text demonstrates that it is divinely inspired and, therefore, reliable. We CAN believe before we are “required to believe.”

I dispute that the gospels are reliable. They were legends passed down by a cult and finally written down by non-eyewitnesses.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooo . . . they are not merely “legend passed down by a cult . . .”, but you can say whatever you want. If you harden your heart, you will be missing out on the opportunity of your life (literally as well as figuratively). Can’t you just ask Jesus to show you which way to go? The wide path that leads to destruction? Or the narrow path that leads to life. (scriptural)

At any rate, eyewitness testimony, even from “reliable” witnesses, carries little to no weight in extraordinary claims.

In the court of law there are extraordinary claims from eyewitnesses all the time, some of whom are reliable, some not. One must discern by using reason which claims have a basis in TRUTH.

You are, again, presuming that the texts are correct in reporting their dependence on the supernatural and then using that presumption to affirm the rest of the text.

How did you come to the conclusion that they’re correct about that detail? You must already have thought that they’re truthful before you began constructing the argument to demonstrate that they’re truthful. It’s a circle.

Since I can’t go into a time machine and go back in time to when Jesus in His human form walked the earth, I’m depending on the claims of whom I consider reliable. Since there are witnesses who are dependable (not out for money or fame or whatever),
one can believe their testimony.

One can also read the gospels and determine the kind of character Jesus had as well as His divinity, which He claimed several times. So, yes, I reasoned the gospels were truthful and built my argument on the words and actions of Jesus as recorded.

Finally, I accepted the Church’s teaching about the divinity of Jesus and all that is in the Apostles’ Creed.

Not a contemporary of Jesus, and he never knew the historical Jesus. He had a vision that he attributed to Jesus.

Who else should He attribute it to when the Person in the vision asks Paul why he is persecuting Him?

Well, you’ve already admitted that you cannot demonstrate that such “healings” are anything more than natural recovery, so I really don’t know what you’re looking for here. “Neat story”?

You don’t even believe the claims of medical physicians???

 

[AntiTheist]

The fact of the matter is that Jesus rose from the dead. …] just reading the text demonstrates that it is divinely inspired and, therefore, reliable.

And this pretty much sums up what is wrong with your position.

Reading the words of a text cannot tell you whether or not the words are divinely inspired.

In the court of law there are extraordinary claims from eyewitnesses all the time, some of whom are reliable, some not. One must discern by using reason which claims have a basis in TRUTH.

Argument from awful analogy. We’re not trying to decide who was wrong in a fender-bender, here. There are four texts that claims a man rose from the dead.

We don’t know who wrote these texts. They were written decades and decades after the events by people who were not eyewitnesses. They claim incredible things that we wouldn’t believe today even if we had reliable eyewitnesses.

I’m not sure how I could make my position any clearer.

 

[Light1111]

You might want to practice on the thread “test update.” Let’s see if I can send a link.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=187981

Just note how to write the word Quote (beginning) and /Quote (end) but add the ] surrounding the word. Hopefully, that helps some. Others may be able to explain it better. Just trying things from the interesting stufff above is cool. Have fun!

Thanks 4Horsemen! As for your name – I’d be a bit afraid if I thought there would be 1,111 Horsemen! Maybe you’d better keep it at 4, eh?

 

[4Horsemen]

Thanks 4Horsemen! As for your name – I’d be a bit afraid if I thought there would be 1,111 Horsemen! Maybe you’d better keep it at 4, eh?

The reference of 4Horsemen comes from Revelation. You probably heard of Famine, Pestilence, Destruction and Death. Also, I heard that it’s also a reference to 4 football players at Notre Dame quite some time ago.

True. 1,111 Horsemen would be an army! Maybe that’s what we need now for the Church Militant, a spiritual army to defend the teachings of Christ in His Church.

 

[4Horsemen]

And this pretty much sums up what is wrong with your position.

Reading the words of a text cannot tell you whether or not the words are divinely inspired.

Argument from awful analogy. We’re not trying to decide who was wrong in a fender-bender, here. There are four texts that claims a man rose from the dead.

We don’t know who wrote these texts. They were written decades and decades after the events by people who were not eyewitnesses. They claim incredible things that we wouldn’t believe today even if we had reliable eyewitnesses.

I’m not sure how I could make my position any clearer.

They say there are no atheists in a foxhole. Looking at the discussion from another angle, I wonder if you’ve ever thought about end times (at least for your own life) and the eternal verities of Death, Judgment, Heaven and Hell. You can choose your fate. Either you will be with God and the angels and saints forever and ever or with Satan and his minions forever and ever. That’s how it’s set up, whether we like it or not. There’s no such thing as just melting away to nothingness. We can’t even imagine nothing, except as the absence of something. But we can’t imagine a world of nothingness outside of our universe. Blackness or darkness is really something that is the opposite of whiteness and lightness. We can imagine all of these abstract nouns.

Atheism is the last superstition as author, Edward Feser, claims in his book The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism. His thesis is that abandoning Aristotelianism, as modern philosophy did, was a huge mistake. That’s why there is a crisis in our Western civilization, according to Feser. Atheism is the final holdout of an irrational illusion clung to by those who will not let their minds lead them to what is right in front of their face.

Here’s a quote from the author: “In the hands of medieval Christians, Jews and Muslims, the work of Plato and Aristotle was used to demolish the intellectual foundations of the pagan culture that produced them. If resurrected today, it would do the same to the simultaneously newer and shabbier paganism that has supplanted the relligious heritage of the West.”

To reflect on the question of the thread “Required to believe,” it’s not that we’re required to believe in God, but believing in God and an afterlife is the whole purpose of our existence. We “work out our salvation.” Or what value is life other than seeing the pretty scenery and learning bits and pieces of knowledge that don’t lead anywhere? When the non-believer speaks about various disciplines or even their own lives and emotions, what is their frame of reference? (I’m trying to find the right words to make the point that Christians see Christ as their frame of reference, the ground of being, the supreme good, the center of their existence, while atheists have nothing of substance).

 

[Light1111]

The reference of 4Horsemen comes from Revelation. You probably heard of Famine, Pestilence, Destruction and Death. Also, I heard that it’s also a reference to 4 football players at Notre Dame quite some time ago.

True. 1,111 Horsemen would be an army! Maybe that’s what we need now for the Church Militant, a spiritual army to defend the teachings of Christ in His Church.

That’s kind of what I was thinking–the thought of all those charging horsemen is terrifying! 4 is quite enough in my opinion! LOL. We’ve already covered Famine, Pestilence, Destruction and Death – if we have 1,107 more to contend with, we’d be in for it, for sure!

 

[AntiTheist]

They say there are no atheists in a foxhole.

They say that, but you may be interested to know that there are indeed atheists in the armed forces. There is a group dedicated to honoring them (I think they actually call themselves “The Foxhole Atheists”), and I have heard an atheist talk about her time in the military and about a nearly-fatal experience she had while in the line of duty.

I wonder if you’ve ever thought about end times (at least for your own life)

Non-sequitur. Whether or not your belief in a god claim gives you comfort about uncertainties (like death) has nothing to do with whether or not you have sufficient evidence to accept that claim as true.

There’s no such thing as just melting away to nothingness. We can’t even imagine nothing, except as the absence of something.

What in blazes are you talking about? If you’ve ever slept without having dreams, you know precisely what it’s like to not experience anything – at least for several hours.

what value is life other than seeing the pretty scenery and learning bits and pieces of knowledge that don’t lead anywhere?

This is another non-sequitur. Whether or not you personally find “value” in a claim has nothing to do with whether or not you have sufficient evidence to accept that claim as true.

For me, I think there’s quite a lot of value in enjoying the things that life has to offer and learning new things. To try to pretend that these things only have “value” if you’re going to live forever and ever and ever is as silly as a child pretending that playtime only has value if it lasts forever and ever and ever.

 

[4Horsemen]

That’s kind of what I was thinking–the thought of all those charging horsemen is terrifying! 4 is quite enough in my opinion! LOL. We’ve already covered Famine, Pestilence, Destruction and Death – if we have 1,107 more to contend with, we’d be in for it, for sure!

We’d have to find names for all of those 1,107. That would not be horse-play!

BTW, in attempting to stick with the topic (somewhat), I have a question for you. Seeing that you label yourself as a “spiritualist,” how do you define God? It would seem to me that you may be into New Age thinking or Eastern mysticism, if I remember some of the earlier posts, unless I totally mis-read you. You showed an interest in St. John of the Cross, but didn’t comment on the link I sent to his intense spiritual book, Dark Night of the Soul. Just wondering if your spirituality is based upon the idea of a Creator who is the Supreme Being.

 

[Light1111]

Hi 4Horsemen,

I’m sorry, I think my comment on St. John of the Cross (in response to your recommendation) was buried in my post where I quoted incorrectly! In any case, I appreciate the recommendation. I checked at the local library and they can do an inter-library loan; it’s going to take a while to get it, but I think it’s worth it. I don’t know if it was in this forum or another where I posted about him, but I’ve been fascinated by him for a while. An artist whose lecture I saw was asked to identify his inspiration in his work, and he responded with St. John of the Cross. The story he told was incredible!

In answer to your question about my beliefs in God, you did remember correctly that I have respect for the spiritual beliefs of the East. I have studied many world religions, not with the intention of conversion, but to understand how various peoples have worshiped God, both historically and currently.

I’ve felt a special connection to St. Therese of the Little Flower since I was a child. I often pray to her, and I say the Novena to her when others request a petition. I also pray to Archangels Raphael, Michael, Gabriel and Uriel, as well as to my personal Guardian Angel. I say prayers for my deceased loved ones.

I am never all that eloquent in trying to explain how I view God. I’m always left with the sense that what I feel and know about Him cannot be put into words. That’s part of the reason I say that I am “spiritual” instead of stating a religion. I suppose I have a difficult time limiting God to the restrictions of any of the Holy Books. I believe each of them depict higher truths, and I hold all of them in equal respect. But at the end, each of them to me merely represent man’s attempt to understand the unknowable. A beautiful and mystical endeavor, and one I heartily agree with, and can relate to. I’m on the same path trying to learn and understand.

I believe the whole of the Universe is not only created by God, but is God. My challenge in life is learning to apply this to every moment of my life, so that even when I’m looking at a cockroach, or a very mean person, I can still find God. That challenge is incredibly difficult for me. But I’ve found in the last several years an opening of tolerance and even love and compassion, and I know that is God answering my prayers for Him to help and guide me through this process.

As far as spiritual practice, I practice the above. I also meditate on how I’ve hurt others and make reparations where I am able. When they’re not possible I at least express remorse. Prayer is an every day part of my life, and I find it peaceful to be able to pray for those I’m worried about. Many people in my family are ill, and there’s such solace in knowing that God and the Angels are on the case.

I’d love to hear some more about your story, if you’d care to share!

Thanks and peace to you!
Light1111

 

[4Horsemen]

They say that, but you may be interested to know that there are indeed atheists in the armed forces. There is a group dedicated to honoring them (I think they actually call themselves “The Foxhole Atheists”), and I have heard an atheist talk about her time in the military and about a nearly-fatal experience she had while in the line of duty.

Non-sequitur! It doesn’t follow that just because you heard about a so-called atheist give a talk about “a nearly-fatal experience” while serving in the military that it was actually true, first of all, and, also, that she would still hold onto her non-belief in that experience or others like it. Was the subject of her speech how she still didn’t believe in God during her bad experience?

Non-sequitur. Whether or not your belief in a god claim gives you comfort about uncertainties (like death) has nothing to do with whether or not you have sufficient evidence to accept that claim as true.

Not another non-sequitur!
No scientific evidence can prove there is a God or disprove that claim. Metaphysics covers the entire domain of which science is a small part.

(I had some really great answers earlier, but my laptop went bonkers, and I lost everything I wrote). I suppose that’s a non-sequitur (sacasm).

What in blazes are you talking about? If you’ve ever slept without having dreams, you know precisely what it’s like to not experience anything – at least for several hours.

The brain is still working, of course, as we sleep while we are in deep sleep or REM. We don’t know how God may be working in the spiritual part of us. He doesn’t leave us just because we sleep. Your point is that death is like sleep in that we don’t apparently experience anything. But Christians have a more positive outlook.

This is another non-sequitur. Whether or not you personally find “value” in a claim has nothing to do with whether or not you have sufficient evidence to accept that claim as true.

I disagree. First of all, finding “value” can be evidence for truth in the subjective sense. IOW, it may be true for me. Then I can extrapolate that if it’s true for me, it may also be true for others. Then I may further reason that it may possibly be an absolute truth.

For me, I think there’s quite a lot of value in enjoying the things that life has to offer and learning new things. To try to pretend that these things only have “value” if you’re going to live forever and ever and ever is as silly as a child pretending that playtime only has value if it lasts forever and ever and ever.

I agree wholeheartedly with your first sentence. As for your second, there is no pretence whatever. It’s a belief that just makes bad experiences more bearable and good experiences wonderful as in full of wonder, joy, love, etc. . .

Just wondering . . . I read several pages of a thread you started, "The Gospels are Myths (and other observations) and found so many excellent posts leading readers to understand the various proofs, testimony, reasoning, prophecies and various teachings of Jesus and His Church. Many of these posters had links to various sites to bolster their cases. Did you not follow their logic or try the links? Why have you hardened your heart so? I did too for a time, but having been brought up a “cradle Catholic,” I actually began to feel I was missing something in my life and, eventually, with God’s help I returned. But I still had a lot of learning ahead. As often said, “God isn’t done with me yet.”

 

[AntiTheist]

Non-sequitur! It doesn’t follow that just because you heard about a so-called atheist give a talk about “a nearly-fatal experience” while serving in the military that it was actually true, first of all, and, also, that she would still hold onto her non-belief in that experience or others like it.

You don’t seem to grasp what a non-sequitur is. It’s not a non-sequitur to take people at their word when reporting their experiences.

Now, I certainly grant that it’s possible that this one atheist is lying, but as I said, there’s an entire group of “Foxhole Atheists,” most of whom have seen action. The point that I’m demonstrating is that the old canard that “there are no atheists in foxholes” – along with the disingenuous insinuation that everybody turns to gods in times of troubles – is simply false.

Was the subject of her speech how she still didn’t believe in God during her bad experience?

Yes.

No scientific evidence can prove there is a God or disprove that claim.

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Your point is that death is like sleep in that we don’t apparently experience anything.

My point is that your assertion that we cannot imagine what nothingness would be like is false because all of us have had the experience (or non-experience, rather) of being “gone” for several hours at night.

If you’d like to concede that point and withdraw your assertion that we can’t imagine it, that would be a very fine display of intellectual honesty.

Just wondering . . . I read several pages of a thread you started, "The Gospels are Myths (and other observations) and found so many excellent posts leading readers to understand the various proofs, testimony, reasoning, prophecies and various teachings of Jesus and His Church. Many of these posters had links to various sites to bolster their cases. Did you not follow their logic or try the links?

As a rule, I generally don’t go visit random websites and debunk their nonsense. I’m interested in discussing things with people. If you feel that you have compelling evidence that the Gospels are anything more than myths, please go post in that thread and explain the evidence. Don’t just throw links at me – tell me what the evidence is, where you got it from, why you think it’s trustworthy, and what you think it demonstrates.

Now I have been away from that thread for a long time – I gave up on after it was obvious that no one had any real evidence, and I’ve only recently returned to it after seeing it bumped to the top of the page. If you think there’s one post that really presents some compelling evidence, go post in that thread and point me to it by number, and I’ll address it.

But please, oh please, make it a better argument than “This part of the book features a character fulfilling a prophecy from that part of the book – this proves that the book is magical!”

Why have you hardened your heart so?

I haven’t – I simply wish to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. As a result, I subject all claims I hear to rational scrutiny. Extraordinary claims require sufficient evidence before I accept them. Again, if you think you have evidence, go present it, and I’ll respond to you.

 

[tonyrey]

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Is** every** claim you make based on evidence?

BTW How do you determine what is evidence? Is there evidence for your criteria of evidence?

 

[jmcrae]

But please, oh please, make it a better argument than “This part of the book features a character fulfilling a prophecy from that part of the book – this proves that the book is magical!”

First, no one is saying that the Bible is “magical.”

Second, if we were talking about a book of fiction that had been written by one author in one sitting, your complaint would be valid.

However, we are taking about a book that was put together by many authors, beginning with Moses, and ending with the Apostle John - a period of about 1900 years or so, from the beginnings of writing and mathematics, until the height of the Roman Empire, each writer recording his unedited and honest experiences of miraculous and extraordinary events.

 

[4Horsemen]

Hi 4Horsemen,

I’m sorry, I think my comment on St. John of the Cross (in response to your recommendation) was buried in my post where I quoted incorrectly! In any case, I appreciate the recommendation.

I’m so glad you’re getting to know St. John of the Cross. At the same time, it’s almost impossible not to get acquainted with St. Teresa of Avila. Both were discalced Carmelites and were bent on reforming their monasteries. Both are inspirational and have written some remarkable prose.

In answer to your question about my beliefs in God, you did remember correctly that I have respect for the spiritual beliefs of the East. I have studied many world religions, not with the intention of conversion, but to understand how various peoples have worshiped God, both historically and currently.

Why don’t you have any intention of “conversion?” Don’t any of these faiths fit your paradigm of what being “spiritual” means? Just trying to understand why you haven’t found truth outside of yourself if. So please en-Light-en me, if you will? BTW, you mentioned that you have studied spiritual beliefs of the East, so have you also studied (I mean thoroughly investigated) the faith handed down from the Jewish religion through faith in Jesus Christ to Christianity?

I’ve felt a special connection to St. Therese of the Little Flower since I was a child. I often pray to her, and I say the Novena to her when others request a petition. I also pray to Archangels Raphael, Michael, Gabriel and Uriel, as well as to my personal Guardian Angel. I say prayers for my deceased loved ones.

Oh, you sound soooooooooo. . . Catholic in this paragraph. Another question: How do you think your prayers for your beloved deceased will be beneficial for them? Do you believe in Purgatory, that is, a state of purgation. (Only the perfect can see God.) But. . . you believe that God is the universe.

I suppose I have a difficult time limiting God to the restrictions of any of the Holy Books. I believe each of them depict higher truths, and I hold all of them in equal respect. But at the end, each of them to me merely represent man’s attempt to understand the unknowable. A beautiful and mystical endeavor, and one I heartily agree with, and can relate to. I’m on the same path trying to learn and understand.

I agree that God is above all holy books. We can only glimpse Him in them. In fact, I believe that each religion has a nugget or two of truth revealed by God, but, nonetheless, I believe that the fulness of faith is revealed in the Holy Bible because God said so revealing Himself, in time, through Jesus Christ Our Lord. The Bible is more than “merely man’s attempt to understand the unknowable.” It is God’s way of communicating with us and showing us the way that leads to salvation. Why do we pray if it has no value except to make us feel better? We pray, first of all, to worship the Creator and to ask for His blessings on us our families and friends, His Church, our country and the whole world.

I believe the whole of the Universe is not only created by God, but is God. My challenge in life is learning to apply this to every moment of my life, so that even when I’m looking at a cockroach, or a very mean person, I can still find God. That challenge is incredibly difficult for me. But I’ve found in the last several years an opening of tolerance and even love and compassion, and I know that is God answering my prayers for Him to help and guide me through this process.

Why are you concerned about “finding” God when you believe He is not a person but a thing, for the universe is physical matter/energy, quantum theory or not? But I empathize with you in the idea of self-discipline, practicing the virtues.

As far as spiritual practice, I practice the above. I also meditate on how I’ve hurt others and make reparations where I am able. When they’re not possible I at least express remorse. Prayer is an every day part of my life, and I find it peaceful to be able to pray for those I’m worried about. Many people in my family are ill, and there’s such solace in knowing that God and the Angels are on the case.

You said “make reparations”. That sounds Catholic, but it’s also something we should do for our own integrity. People used to consider themselves “honorable” men and women and keep their word. You said, "Prayer is an every day part of my life. . . " Yes, I understand that you find it “peaceful”. I “pray unceasingly” as we are told to do in Scripture. (LOL, now I’m boasting, of course, which is a fault or imperfection in itself. Anyone walking the “way of perfection,” as St. Teresa calls it, must overcome all imperfections to make the soul ready to invite God inside.

I am on a prayer network at church and will pray for your sick family members. May God grant them healing and serenity in their illnesses.

I’d love to hear some more about your story, if you’d care to share!

Thanks and peace to you!
Light1111

My story . . . well, there was a thread a few months back where I used two whole posts to describe how God “lured” me back into the Church. It was heartfelt and I thought it was something God might want me to do. Anyhow, I must have closed the thread down since no one posted after me. There are mystical moments that are quite personal, but I posted anyway. Usually, if someone tells another about their religious experiences (in the spiritual realm), people don’t generally believe it. I’m the same way, so I can’t blame anyone else. However, if I find it among all my bookmarked stuff and links in my favorites, I’ll send it as a PM. I don’t get on this board much, but didn’t you start a thread about conversion experiences?

God bless you!
4Horsemen

 

[4Horsemen]

You don’t seem to grasp what a non-sequitur is. It’s not a non-sequitur to take people at their word when reporting their experiences.

At best, it’s “hear-say evidence.”

Now, I certainly grant that it’s possible that this one atheist is lying, but as I said, there’s an entire group of “Foxhole Atheists,” most of whom have seen action. The point that I’m demonstrating is that the old canard that “there are no atheists in foxholes” – along with the disingenuous insinuation that everybody turns to gods in times of troubles – is simply false.

Yes, there are people in foxholes who refuse God’s Divine Mercy and people on their deathbeds, who also refuse it.

Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

I like the post by tonyrey asking if there is any evidence for your “criteria of evidence.”

My point is that your assertion that we cannot imagine what nothingness would be like is false because all of us have had the experience (or non-experience, rather) of being “gone” for several hours at night.

If you’d like to concede that point and withdraw your assertion that we can’t imagine it, that would be a very fine display of intellectual honesty.

And how about some “intellectual honesty” on your part when you refuse to look at the evidence presented in the books of the bible from prophecies in the Old Testament which were verified in the New?

As for being asleep, sure we aren’t in a state of awareness. (How’s that for intellectual honesty?)

As a rule, I generally don’t go visit random websites and debunk their nonsense. I’m interested in discussing things with people. If you feel that you have compelling evidence that the Gospels are anything more than myths, please go post in that thread and explain the evidence. Don’t just throw links at me – tell me what the evidence is, where you got it from, why you think it’s trustworthy, and what you think it demonstrates.

Now I have been away from that thread for a long time – I gave up on after it was obvious that no one had any real evidence, and I’ve only recently returned to it after seeing it bumped to the top of the page. If you think there’s one post that really presents some compelling evidence, go post in that thread and point me to it by number, and I’ll address it.

You’ll probably find some 'non-sequiture." But, if I can squeeze any more time into this board, I might just go back to that thread. I think you should be agreeable to reading the links (or watching, if YouTube), so you can, perhaps, find some evidence?!?!

But please, oh please, make it a better argument than “This part of the book features a character fulfilling a prophecy from that part of the book – this proves that the book is magical!”

I like jmcrae’s response about the bible being a collection of books by many authors. Don’t you think that would present a good case for evidence seeing that the prophecies foretold hundreds of years before the event were true since the various events actually happened. (In fact, on the thread you began, I wrote a series of prophecies in one post). I could look it up. But so could you.

I haven’t – I simply wish to believe as many true things and as few false things as possible. As a result, I subject all claims I hear to rational scrutiny. Extraordinary claims require sufficient evidence before I accept them. Again, if you think you have evidence, go present it, and I’ll respond to you.

But, you alone are the “rational” scrutinizer, so how valid is your evidence as others have questioned?

I have a suggestion. Do you read any books that are pro-theism? There are people here who read both sides of the question of the existence of God. Even theists read Richard Dawkings, Christopher Hitchens and others. So you might want to do the same. It’s a matter of intellectual honesty.

 

[Light1111]

4Horsemen:

Thank you for your reply. Despite your helping me with the quotes thing, I still don’t have the hang of it! So I’ll just go through and address your questions as I look at your post, as I have it open in another window.

I will have to start looking into St. Theresa of Avila. She’s mentioned so much here, and I’ve only just realized she’s a different saint from St. Therese of the Little Flower. I kept figuring we were talking about the same person! It’s interesting to me how certain of these saints – St. John of the Cross; St. Theresa of the Little Flower – might well have been practicing a form of stillness meditation, or mindfulness meditation, as it is sometimes called. In looking into so many varying religions, one of the things that has struck me repeatedly is that they agree on so very many aspects of life and the internal growth of the soul; the language and concepts each nation and faith tradition carries are so starkly different, that it is hard to find those commonalities. But the level to which St. John of the Cross and St. Theresa of the Little Flower (and St. Theresa of Avilla) were able to attain, is en par with the state of spiritual enlightenment that is the goal in the meditation traditions (Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, etc.). True, I know that Christians object to the lack of “prayer,” per se, but the goal in these Eastern traditions is to attain to a state that is so much higher than that of the human consciousness in its raw form, that one “knows” God in that higher state. They do not preach about God, because their quest is to find Him in that enlightened state. I may not have the authority to state this, but my understanding is that they believe it is beside the point to try to worship Him prior to attaining to enlightenment; you will only be able to glimpse the dogma implicit in the teachings, but never God. In man’s hampered intellect, such vastness is impossible to comprehend. One seeks to merge with Him, divesting themselves first of the ego. To their view, the ego impedes the ability to know that which is beyond oneself. Interestingly, the goals of psychoanalysis (a Western invention) are essentially identical to this. As a social worker, I respect the unconscious, and use my understanding of it to direct sessions with my clients.

In studying the world’s religions, the reason I had no intention of conversion is that I do not feel a need to adhere to one particular teaching. Nor do I take issue with anyone who does. I feel it is beautiful to participate actively in a given faith tradition, or to practice and believe independent of specific scripture. Both are paths to God in my opinion. My interest in my studies was to learn ever-more about the nature of God. I have seen the ways various people were able to build concepts and constructs about Him, and each layer of understanding has aided in my overall sense, my internal experience.

(Continued below

 

[Light1111]

(continued from previous)

In my Cultural Awareness course (a course in which one’s knowledge of other cultures is intended to expand), in my social work program, our teacher (a Hindu) passed around a calendar for the class to see. Each month of the year educated the reader on a different world religion. Some of those selected were Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Islam, Rastafarianism, Sufism, etc. Several of those listed were not commonly known about, at least not here in the States. A friend of mine, who had moved to the U.S. from Nigeria, suddenly raised his hand. He had just paged through the entire calendar, reading the highlights of each belief system. He said, “These are all the same.” The whole class laughed. He said, “I am trying to tell you I have just witnessed the commonality of man. We are from many nations, and follow many differently-named faith traditions. But we are all after the same thing. Love your neighbor as yourself, and love your God. What more is there to say?” This man had overcome tremendous strife to make it to the U.S.; in his youth, he had known tremendous brutality. He was a firm believer in God, but adhered to no religion. He once explained to me that his family was from a tribe that had a no-named religion; a set of spiritual beliefs and practices. Christianity was introduced to them by Missionaries. He said, “We loved Christianity. Every view that was presented to us matched what we already held as true. It was a beautiful lesson in our common thoughts and ideas.” He did not convert; he did not see the need. He was surprised by my question! He merely said “I already held these beliefs. I still hold them.” His story moved me deeply, and I relate to his mindframe on this. If that helps you to understand mine!

I pray for my deceased loved ones and ask that they receive insight, guidance and support on their journey of spiritual evolution. I don’t believe in purgatory or hell. I only believe in Heaven. I believe one grows closer to the Source as they evolve spiritually, and that one undertakes a life review at the time of one’s death in which they review every moment of their lives. One weighs how one’s actions have effected others, by feeling any pain they caused, and grows as a result of the true remorse and grief that one suffers in witnessing this pain they have caused others. As one undergoes this process it results in a purification, as true remorse is the antidote to ill behaviors. A blossoming in the soul is the result of such heartfelt grief, and it is possible to know God once those layers of klipote have been shed. In part, my intentions in praying for deceased loves one is to add empathy and self-love to the equation, as I know the inner pain of grief and remorse that is caused by viewing the ways we have harmed others. I wish to offer the sense of self-forgiveness as I say my prayers. It is so easy to get stuck in guilt, but guilt can’t feel and know God. Only moving to the other side, in self-acceptance, can reveal the Creator.

I appreciate what you wrote about the Bible. I am always moved whenever I hear of anyone with such devotion to their faith.

When I say I am concerned with “finding God,” I speak of the internal sense of knowing, of Oneness with Him. Perhaps it is as you said at the end of your post, when you referenced how difficult it can be to impart the highly personal spiritual experience.

If you ever do find the missing post, or if you feel like writing a new one, I would be interested in hearing more! I too have such stories, but I doubt I’d do them justice! I always feel so grateful whenever I come across such a story, just realizing someone took the time to try to share this amazing experience! Many times, when my faith has been low (such as when I have been the most worried about a family member or friend who isn’t well), those stores give me a huge boost of faith and gratitude towards God. I have found that gratitude and remorse are the two emotional experiences that have gone the furthest toward helping me to feel and to know God. One can’t fake either emotion! We may be Commanded to repent, but to feel it internally is another thing entirely. Such true outpourings from the heart do much toward the process of the soul’s crystallization.

Your last question: I didn’t start a thread on the conversion experience, but I responded to a question about why I left the Catholic Church. Perhaps that is what you are thinking of?

Thank you for writing back, I’ve really enjoyed our conversation!

Thank you for your offer of prayers! I will remember you and your family in mine as well!

Peace,
Light1111

 

[Light1111]

4Horsemen:

My cut-and-paste job omitted the part where I responded to your question about Christianity. You’d asked if I’d studied it. Indeed, and I was Baptized and Confirmed in the Catholic Church, attending Catholic School for 10 years. I have also studied other sects of Christianity, as I’d always wanted to understand the reason for all the divisions. I have studied Judaism, including the Tanakh. As a child, I attended numerous Bar and Bas Mitzvahs, as many family friends are Jewish. I find the roots of the Christian faith as beautiful as Christianity itself.

I think that’s all that was omitted . . thank you and take care!
Peace!
Light1111