Requirements for Salvation

[Leela]

Hi All,

I’ve studied many of the world’s religions, read many of their sacred texts and apologetics, talked to many practitioners as well as clergy, and I have so far found the evidence and arguments for choosing any one of these religions over all of the others less than
compelling. In my understanding of Christian theology, faith is a gift from God. It is a gift that I have not been given. Perhaps it is best for you to think of me as like Paul before being struck on the road to Damascus (without the history of persecuting Christians!) or a
doubting Thomas for whom Jesus has not yet made himself known. I can’t make myself feel that I have done anything wrong in being unconvinced by the evidence and arguments for any particular religion. I don’t have the power to force myself to believe what I don’t already believe. No one has such an ability to will themselves into believing something. Faith is a gift. Lack of faith can be viewed by a Christian as unfortunate but not as a personal moral failure since it is not in our control. If there is a God, the gift of faith is in God’s hands alone since God knows exactly what sort of evidence would convince me, yet has chosen in his wisdom not to provide it.

I have no concern about damnation as a punishment for my lack of belief. If God does exist, I can’t imagine that the creator of this wonderful world made it as a great multiple choice test to see if we pick the right religion and to punish or reward us based on this one choice, especially since belief is not even a choice. I don’t lose any sleep over fear of damnation for my lack of assent to the divinity of Jesus any more than you do over the claims that Muslims, Mormons and other religions make that Christians will be damned for not believing in Islam, Mormonism, or whatever others believe.

Even Christian theologians and the Bible itself are of two minds when it comes to the importance of belief for salvation. The Gospel of John tends to emphasize belief in the divinity of Jesus as the sole requirement for going to Heaven (and certain denominations such as the Baptists have emphasized this interpretation of Christianity), while elsewhere in the Gospels Jesus teaches that God wants to be loved rather than to be believed in. And how do we love God? By loving our neighbors as ourselves. The goats and sheep will be separated not based on the percent of certainty that we can ascribe to the existence of God, but based on how well we took care of one another. See Matthew 25:31. Matthew again contradicts the fundamentalist interpretation of John’s Gospel when he quotes Jesus as saying, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” So by this interpretation of Christian theology, belief is not a sufficient nor even a necessary condition for salvation.

But it is my understanding that Catholicism teaches that belief in the divinity of Jesus and asking God for forgiveness of sins will get us into Heaven. My question is this: how certain would I need to be about the divinity of Jesus to be saved? If I ascribe any non-zero probability to the existence of God is that enough? Or must I be more than 50% certain? Is that even enough? Must I be something like 89% certain or even more certain than that? Does the Catechism give any guidelines here?

Best,
Leela

 

[James_Least]

Sounds like a case of problematic probabilities–i.e. Confusion 801.

Get rid of all the quasi-intellectual baggage from Mars Hill.

Yes, throw that paradigm away. Dump it. DELETE IT.

Read Romans Ch. 1-5 until the Holy Spirit shows you the Truth–He will show you the paradigm that will quicken your spirit. A child can understand. Perhaps not a doctor.

You seem to realize the edge of the abyss–there is only one lifeline–Jesus.

“You shall know the Truth and the Truth shall make you free”

We pray for you. Prayers work in cyberspace too.

Have a blessed day,

James Least

 

[NHInsider]

Even Christian theologians and the Bible itself are of two minds when it comes to the importance of belief for salvation. The Gospel of John tends to emphasize belief in the divinity of Jesus as the sole requirement for going to Heaven (and certain denominations such as the Baptists have emphasized this interpretation of Christianity), while elsewhere in the Gospels Jesus teaches that God wants to be loved rather than to be believed in. And how do we love God? By loving our neighbors as ourselves. The goats and sheep will be separated not based on the percent of certainty that we can ascribe to the existence of God, but based on how well we took care of one another. See Matthew 25:31. Matthew again contradicts the fundamentalist interpretation of John’s Gospel when he quotes Jesus as saying, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” So by this interpretation of Christian theology, belief is not a sufficient nor even a necessary condition for salvation.

But it is my understanding that Catholicism teaches that belief in the divinity of Jesus and asking God for forgiveness of sins will get us into Heaven. My question is this: how certain would I need to be about the divinity of Jesus to be saved? If I ascribe any non-zero probability to the existence of God is that enough? Or must I be more than 50% certain? Is that even enough? Must I be something like 89% certain or even more certain than that? Does the Catechism give any guidelines here?

Best,
Leela

There is a common misconception that “faith” = “rational assent” As you have ably pointed out, simply believing in the divinty of Jesus is not the essence of “saving faith” - in fact the gospels point out that even demons acknowledged His identity.

And since “faith” by its very definition involves accepting something which cannot be proven by reason, there is always a component of “reasonable doubt” (to borrow from a non-theological field) involved.

The essence of Christian faith is not an exercise of the mind but an entry into a relationship. The Incarnation makes it possible for us to have a relationship with the Living God. When you fall in love, you don’t spend a lot of time analyzing the pros and cons of the other (perhaps you should, especially before making a lifetime commitment, but that’s a different thread). Nor does a child analyze the details of a relationship with a parent. One simply exists in relationship, and if one treasures the relationship, one finds ways to spend time together, ways to please the other, etc. That’s what Christianity is. All the details, all the rubrics, all the rest are means, not ends. The end is a relationship of love. And it’s a relationship that, as you point out, starts with God, not with us. He loved us first, He calls us, He provided the Way for us to enter into that relationship with Him. We can’t do it, we can only receive it.

It may be that you need to put aside the search (which is, inevitably, your effort) and offer the simplest of prayers - “Lord, if you’re out there, I want to know You.” And be open to the ways He may reveal Himself to you. Because reveal Himself He will - because He loves you. And when you know that, when you feel it within you, you will know that it’s not a matter of percentages or checklists. And then you’ll be ready to find the ways that He has provided for you to strengthen and grow that relationship.

And you can be sure that people here will be praying for you.

 

[Christy_Beth]

It has already been said, but I’ll say it again. Rational doesn’t equal faith. If you want rational, then you’ll never find the truth. As far as eternal damnation, it’s there. It isn’t a multiple choice either. It’s accept God, or deny Him. There’s no middle of the road here.

 

[Leela]

There is a common misconception that “faith” = “rational assent” As you have ably pointed out, simply believing in the divinty of Jesus is not the essence of “saving faith”…

Yes, I was trying to make a point about what I think is the mistaken emphasis on factual belief in modern religion.

The essence of Christian faith is not an exercise of the mind but an entry into a relationship.

Nice.

The Incarnation makes it possible for us to have a relationship with the Living God. When you fall in love, you don’t spend a lot of time analyzing the pros and cons of the other …Nor does a child analyze the details of a relationship with a parent. One simply exists in relationship, and if one treasures the relationship, one finds ways to spend time together, ways to please the other, etc…

This all sounds basically right to me; however, for me the word “God” carries with it so much confusing baggage that it no longer serves any purpose for me.

It may be that you need to put aside the search (which is, inevitably, your effort) and offer the simplest of prayers - “Lord, if you’re out there, I want to know You.” And be open to the ways He may reveal Himself to you…And you can be sure that people here will be praying for you.

Thanks for your prayers, but such offers always sound condescending to me. I don’t think those that assent to certain dubious historical facts have anything that warrants the presumption that they have something of worth that I don’t have. Why presume that you have something I need?

I think that a person can have a beautiful meaningful life with or without any specific set of religious beliefs. You feel that your life is enriched by your faith, and I have no
reason to doubt that. Where we disagree is that you think that something fundamentally important is lacking in my life. That may be true, but I don’t have a sense of any such lack. I don’t have Christian faith in the sense of “assurance of things hoped for” as
Paul defined it, but I do have a strong sense that even when we don’t get what we hope for, everything will still be okay. The world is actually perfect as it is. It is unfolding exactly as it should be. I see my job as to get in line with it and to participate in its inevitable evolution toward betterness.

When I say that feel like everything in the end will be all right with the world and my life, this is a proclamation of faith in a way, but I don’t see faith as being about believing things but rather as an attitude toward the world. Faith to me is much more like trust than belief and has more to do with beauty than factual truth. It is not about having some percent of certainty of any facts. We seem to agree here.

To me, the opposite of faith is not disbelief but despair. As to despair, I feel like I’ve been there and back, and at this point I think I am unlikely to be knocked around too much by the ups and downs of life. Even at my lowest points I still deep down feel like everything that happens is ultimately for the best as the universe unfolds according to an intelligence greater than my own. The difference between you and I is only that I don’t think of this “intelligence” as any literal personal being like the personal gods of the montheistic religions. The perspective I’m taking about is something like when a two-year old gets upset over something she herself caused and says, “you hurt my feelings.” Even though she really is sad when she says it and we feel her pain, there is a broader perspective from which we adults can see that her small pain is absolutely beautiful, and we can stifle laughs about what she sees as an injustice and her cute response because we know it really isn’t an injustice. When I am at peace, I feel like I can access such a broader perspective on my own life and see the pain and injustice in my life within a broader perspective or “higher consciousness” as part of a beautiful perfect world.

Sometimes things really are just awful, but at the same time there remains the faith that “just awful” is just how things are sometimes in this perfect world. I try to trust that if things weren’t just awful in some ways right now then this wouldn’t be a perfect world. It’s like watching a very sad movie and crying with the characters, but you still wouldn’t change the ending even if you could because it’s just so damn beautiful. When the movie is over, it the beauty rather than the sadness that remains.

To me that’s faith. One can believe all sorts of facts about religion and still despair. Faith to me is not mere belief or even a belief at all. It is this sort of perspective on the world or such trust in the process of life (or trust in God if you prefer). It is learning how to say “yes” to life. If your religious beliefs help you do that, then I am all for it. If someone believes that God is love, then that’s great. I’m all for love. On the other hand, if someone believes that God hates homosexuals, then that is a problem. I’d like to try to influence that person’s religious beliefs. I argue against what I see as bad ideas that are motivated by fear rather than by love even if they happen to be beliefs about religion. For this I am often feared and I get called an “atheist.”

I think the future of religion (if civilization is to survive the clash of contradictory religious beliefs where people who want to impose their beliefs on others can gain access to devastating technology) must be as you say,an entry into a relationship rather than a defense of dubious facts. Religion as a relationship to the world or God or whatever will always be immune from such “attacks.” It sounds like you have nothing to fear from this “atheist,” and will be unlikely to demonize me as the more fearful members of this forum tend to do.

Best,
Leela

 

[poetryforjesus]

Yes, I was trying to make a point about what I think is the mistaken emphasis on factual belief in modern religion.

Nice.

This all sounds basically right to me; however, for me the word “God” carries with it so much confusing baggage that it no longer serves any purpose for me.

Thanks for your prayers, but such offers always sound condescending to me. I don’t think those that assent to certain dubious historical facts have anything that warrants the presumption that they have something of worth that I don’t have. Why presume that you have something I need?

I think that a person can have a beautiful meaningful life with or without any specific set of religious beliefs. You feel that your life is enriched by your faith, and I have no
reason to doubt that. Where we disagree is that you think that something fundamentally important is lacking in my life. That may be true, but I don’t have a sense of any such lack. I don’t have Christian faith in the sense of “assurance of things hoped for” as
Paul defined it, but I do have a strong sense that even when we don’t get what we hope for, everything will still be okay. The world is actually perfect as it is. It is unfolding exactly as it should be. I see my job as to get in line with it and to participate in its inevitable evolution toward betterness.

When I say that feel like everything in the end will be all right with the world and my life, this is a proclamation of faith in a way, but I don’t see faith as being about believing things but rather as an attitude toward the world. Faith to me is much more like trust than belief and has more to do with beauty than factual truth. It is not about having some percent of certainty of any facts. We seem to agree here.

To me, the opposite of faith is not disbelief but despair. As to despair, I feel like I’ve been there and back, and at this point I think I am unlikely to be knocked around too much by the ups and downs of life. Even at my lowest points I still deep down feel like everything that happens is ultimately for the best as the universe unfolds according to an intelligence greater than my own. The difference between you and I is only that I don’t think of this “intelligence” as any literal personal being like the personal gods of the montheistic religions. The perspective I’m taking about is something like when a two-year old gets upset over something she herself caused and says, “you hurt my feelings.” Even though she really is sad when she says it and we feel her pain, there is a broader perspective from which we adults can see that her small pain is absolutely beautiful, and we can stifle laughs about what she sees as an injustice and her cute response because we know it really isn’t an injustice. When I am at peace, I feel like I can access such a broader perspective on my own life and see the pain and injustice in my life within a broader perspective or “higher consciousness” as part of a beautiful perfect world.

Sometimes things really are just awful, but at the same time there remains the faith that “just awful” is just how things are sometimes in this perfect world. I try to trust that if things weren’t just awful in some ways right now then this wouldn’t be a perfect world. It’s like watching a very sad movie and crying with the characters, but you still wouldn’t change the ending even if you could because it’s just so damn beautiful. When the movie is over, it the beauty rather than the sadness that remains.

To me that’s faith. One can believe all sorts of facts about religion and still despair. Faith to me is not mere belief or even a belief at all. It is this sort of perspective on the world or such trust in the process of life (or trust in God if you prefer). It is learning how to say “yes” to life. If your religious beliefs help you do that, then I am all for it. If someone believes that God is love, then that’s great. I’m all for love. On the other hand, if someone believes that God hates homosexuals, then that is a problem. I’d like to try to influence that person’s religious beliefs. I argue against what I see as bad ideas that are motivated by fear rather than by love even if they happen to be beliefs about religion. For this I am often feared and I get called an “atheist.”

I think the future of religion (if civilization is to survive the clash of contradictory religious beliefs where people who want to impose their beliefs on others can gain access to devastating technology) must be as you say,an entry into a relationship rather than a defense of dubious facts. Religion as a relationship to the world or God or whatever will always be immune from such “attacks.” It sounds like you have nothing to fear from this “atheist,” and will be unlikely to demonize me as the more fearful members of this forum tend to do.

Best,
Leela

You have worked your mind a lot in order to convince yourself Jesus perhaps doesn’t matter. But He is the only thing that matters, not according to how anyone feels but according to reality. When we are entrenched in our own theories of how the world works, we blind ourselves to the real truth (I’ve been there and done that). But when we die, we all find out the same truth. We are fortunate if we start opening our souls to that truth before we die.

Now, why should you care if you feel like your life is all right and Jesus wouldn’t make such a difference? Well, you should care because you have no idea what you are missing. You do not know God, and therefore you cannot participate in His divine Life. Your life here is all perishable. Without the presence and friendship of God, there won’t be much left once your life here ends. You don’t think that’s sad? You don’t think in your heart of hearts you are looking for something more, something better, something deeper, something purer, something immortal?

 

[Chesster]

This all sounds basically right to me; however, for me the word “God” carries with it so much confusing baggage that it no longer serves any purpose for me.

Perhaps you should use the word ‘Father’ instead?

 

[GeorgeSword]

I suggest you re-read the Gospels, this time not as an inquiring atheist looking at various world religions, but as someone truly looking for God in Christ. Meditate upon the acts of Christ and His words, and don’t be overly critical. You must at least trust the accounts given to be accurate. As you study, perhaps you will find yourself moved to prayer. Even if you don’t have much (or any) faith as it is, I can tell that you are seeking. So I encourage you to pray. Pray from your heart, with your own words, or with the words of others. Pray the Our Father. Pray the Rosary. Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy. Pray whatever you feel moved to pray, and express to God your desire to find Him and put all things before Him, and ask Him to give you the gift of Grace, the gift of belief.
Perhaps He has already bestowed upon you His first grace. You do seem to be seeking Him, and perhaps that is in fact the first act of grace. Whatever the case, if you are seeking Him, ‘Ask, and you shall receive’.

 

[fhansen]

Hi All,But it is my understanding that Catholicism teaches that belief in the divinity of Jesus and asking God for forgiveness of sins will get us into Heaven. My question is this: how certain would I need to be about the divinity of Jesus to be saved? If I ascribe any non-zero probability to the existence of God is that enough? Or must I be more than 50% certain? Is that even enough? Must I be something like 89% certain or even more certain than that? Does the Catechism give any guidelines here?

In general terms Jesus’ message is that the evil we see in this world is definitively not in order with the nature of man and that love, itself, is the rule we should be measured by. By His words and deeds He revealed the true nature of love and the extent it’s willing to go to-and Himself to be Love incarnate- and simultaneously showed that the demands of love are something we may well reject- or not place the highest value on - if and when they interfere with our own selfish interests or desires. This simply means that man can and does sin or commit moral evils, large or small, as a result of loving less well than he should-and that his own happiness-along with the quality of life and dignity of man- is actually sacrificed in this- by believing he’ll attain a greater happiness by pursuing his avenues of selfishness.

The CC acknowledges that we come at this message from various perspectives due to our backgrounds, etc. Scripture says that to him who has been given much, much will be expected. God is merciful and just beyond measure. To those who’ve been given less, their consciences will still judge them, based on their love. The CCC quotes St John of the Cross regarding final judgment:

**At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love. **

 

[NHInsider]

Thanks for your prayers, but such offers always sound condescending to me. I don’t think those that assent to certain dubious historical facts have anything that warrants the presumption that they have something of worth that I don’t have. Why presume that you have something I need?

I think I can understand how offers of prayer could be received in this way. However, if in fact I am not presuming that I “have something you need” but that “I know someone whom I hope you will meet” perhaps it feels less that way?

I think that a person can have a beautiful meaningful life with or without any specific set of religious beliefs. You feel that your life is enriched by your faith, and I have no reason to doubt that. Where we disagree is that you think that something fundamentally important is lacking in my life.

Again, if I have a loving relationship with God, how could I not want that for everyone? Would it not be both selfish and presumptuous for me to NOT desire that love and hope for each and every person?

Also I misinterpreted your original post as being an inquiry from a seeker who had explored all these different faith traditions but still had not found what her heart longed for, rather than as an opening to a discussion from someone who had explored all these different faiths and was positing that the faith upheld here is no different.

That may be true, but I don’t have a sense of any such lack. I don’t have Christian faith in the sense of “assurance of things hoped for” as Paul defined it, but I do have a strong sense that even when we don’t get what we hope for, everything will still be okay.

The world is actually perfect as it is. It is unfolding exactly as it should be. I see my job as to get in line with it and to participate in its inevitable evolution toward betterness.

[snip for length]

It would be hard for me to accept that the world is “perfect as it is” with the suffering and injustice that we see all around us. That may be more of the karmic balance perspective of the Eastern faiths? I identify more with Paul’s observation that “all creation groans” awaiting the promised restoration. But that does presume a personal Creator who loves His Creation and would go to extreme lengths to restore it.

Religion as a relationship to the world or God or whatever will always be immune from such “attacks.” It sounds like you have nothing to fear from this “atheist,” and will be unlikely to demonize me as the more fearful members of this forum tend to do.

Your own thoughtful responses demonstrate the possibility of serious yet charitable disagreement. I hope I never stoop to “demonizing” anyone - nor does God need my defense! I’ve never understood the notion that you could successfully frighten or intimidate someone into loving you - or your God.

 

[pzona]

It has already been said, but I’ll say it again. Rational doesn’t equal faith. If you want rational, then you’ll never find the truth. As far as eternal damnation, it’s there. It isn’t a multiple choice either. It’s accept God, or deny Him. There’s no middle of the road here.

Why would God give us rational minds if we weren’t meant to use them? The idea that rationality can’t explain “truth” is one of the biggest problems I have with religion. It seems as though it’s a cop out, used by religious people to avoid having to answer tough questions.

 

[Della]

But it is my understanding that Catholicism teaches that belief in the divinity of Jesus and asking God for forgiveness of sins will get us into Heaven. My question is this: how certain would I need to be about the divinity of Jesus to be saved? If I ascribe any non-zero probability to the existence of God is that enough? Or must I be more than 50% certain? Is that even enough? Must I be something like 89% certain or even more certain than that? Does the Catechism give any guidelines here?

It seems that this is the crux of your difficulty, head-wise? Heart difficulties are the underlying problem, I think. As you wrote, the word “God” carries a lot of baggage for you. A lot of people have that problem, for example. I read an apologist who came from a good Jewish family. He converted to Catholicism, which was all right with them. His mother, who was very ill and dying told him she wanted to believe as he did, but the name Jesus held such bad connotations for her that she couldn’t get past it. He loving suggested she use his Jewish name of Yeshua. That was all she needed–she was at the place in her life where it helped her.

You have written that you love beauty. So do I. One of the poets has written that truth is beauty. And he was right. Beauty is what is in balance–what is good and right. It is one of the greatest gifts we have as human beings–to be able to appreciate things that are beautiful. Where did that appreciation come from? Is it just an abstract concept or something more?

I believe it is more. It is not just a concept it is a Person. You see, the Divine Being isn’t a mere mortal with limitations and flaws–he is the source, the essence of all that is good. Beauty is God and God is Beauty. He is also Love, Truth, Joy, Justice, Mercy, etc. In a word, all the attributes we know are right and good for us come from him because they are his essence. He gives them to us, he shares them with us out of purest love and no other reason.

We were created for this purpose, but we failed the test of love, of trust. He wished for us what was best for us, but we decided we wanted to decide for ourselves what was best. We chose badly because we chose to make ourselves into gods instead of letting God endow upon us his divine life. There is no divine life apart from him. So, if we knowingly and willfully reject his divine life he will not impose it upon us. He made us thinking, rational beings with a will of our own. We can choose divine life or we can reject it.

One last thing I think you misunderstand (please correct me if I’m wrong), the Church doesn’t teach that mental assent to the divinity of Jesus is necessary to salvation–at least not as you seem to understand it. It means that we are to declare with our very lives that Jesus Christ is Lord. When we believe in Christ like that he becomes the focus not us. Doing what he would have us do becomes our joy. It is seeing everything from the prospect of the eternal now, from God’s point of view. It changes everything about us.

It is grace God gives to man that brings about faith, not just faith alone. God has given everyone a “measure of grace” as St. Paul phrased it. No one will be able to stand before him and complain that he didn’t give them what we needed to believe. Our part is to ask for the grace to believe–something he willing gives to anyone who asks. And what is it we are to believe? That God is love and that he is the rewarder of those who seek him. And you do have that grace. Your very asking and searching is that grace in action.

Jesus is the face, the incarnation of the One who gave that grace to you. So, I invite you to seek him out for yourself. And my offer of prayer for you isn’t that you will have what I have–what I have with God no one else can have. What I will pray for is that you will have with God what you need to know and love him in your own relationship with him. He is waiting in love for you. That’s all you need to know.

 

[joann1957]

Hi All,

I’ve studied many of the world’s religions, read many of their sacred texts and apologetics, talked to many practitioners as well as clergy, and I have so far found the evidence and arguments for choosing any one of these religions over all of the others less than
compelling. In my understanding of Christian theology, faith is a gift from God. It is a gift that I have not been given. Perhaps it is best for you to think of me as like Paul before being struck on the road to Damascus (without the history of persecuting Christians!) or a
doubting Thomas for whom Jesus has not yet made himself known. I can’t make myself feel that I have done anything wrong in being unconvinced by the evidence and arguments for any particular religion. I don’t have the power to force myself to believe what I don’t already believe. No one has such an ability to will themselves into believing something. Faith is a gift. Lack of faith can be viewed by a Christian as unfortunate but not as a personal moral failure since it is not in our control. If there is a God, the gift of faith is in God’s hands alone since God knows exactly what sort of evidence would convince me, yet has chosen in his wisdom not to provide it.

I have no concern about damnation as a punishment for my lack of belief. If God does exist, I can’t imagine that the creator of this wonderful world made it as a great multiple choice test to see if we pick the right religion and to punish or reward us based on this one choice, especially since belief is not even a choice. I don’t lose any sleep over fear of damnation for my lack of assent to the divinity of Jesus any more than you do over the claims that Muslims, Mormons and other religions make that Christians will be damned for not believing in Islam, Mormonism, or whatever others believe.

Even Christian theologians and the Bible itself are of two minds when it comes to the importance of belief for salvation. The Gospel of John tends to emphasize belief in the divinity of Jesus as the sole requirement for going to Heaven (and certain denominations such as the Baptists have emphasized this interpretation of Christianity), while elsewhere in the Gospels Jesus teaches that God wants to be loved rather than to be believed in. And how do we love God? By loving our neighbors as ourselves. The goats and sheep will be separated not based on the percent of certainty that we can ascribe to the existence of God, but based on how well we took care of one another. See Matthew 25:31. Matthew again contradicts the fundamentalist interpretation of John’s Gospel when he quotes Jesus as saying, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” So by this interpretation of Christian theology, belief is not a sufficient nor even a necessary condition for salvation.

But it is my understanding that Catholicism teaches that belief in the divinity of Jesus and asking God for forgiveness of sins will get us into Heaven. My question is this: how certain would I need to be about the divinity of Jesus to be saved? If I ascribe any non-zero probability to the existence of God is that enough? Or must I be more than 50% certain? Is that even enough? Must I be something like 89% certain or even more certain than that? Does the Catechism give any guidelines here?

Best,
Leela

What gets one into heaven is continued faith and a life that role models Christ. We are to have faith and follow Gods commandments . If you studied world religions then you must consider biblical history regarding the RCC.

Joann

 

[Todd_Easton]

My question is this: how certain would I need to be about the divinity of Jesus to be saved? If I ascribe any non-zero probability to the existence of God is that enough? Or must I be more than 50% certain? Is that even enough? Must I be something like 89% certain or even more certain than that? Does the Catechism give any guidelines here?

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 847)

 

[Della]

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. (Catechism of the Catholic Church, 847)

That’s one of my favorite quotes from the CCC. It shows that we don’t believe that those who have no knowledge of Christ are automatically doomed, as some people think we do.

It’s also important to note, I think, that the operative phrase is “moved by grace”. It is God’s grace made manifest to the world through the redemptive act of Christ that makes salvation possible for all of us.

Many people tend to interchange the words redemption and salvation, thinking they are one in the same thing. I think our OP should know that they aren’t the same thing, but because of Christ’s death on the cross, redemption, we can have salvation. All people need salvation and all have access to it because of Christ’s redemptive death and resurrection. Just wanted to clarify that point for the sake of our OP and others who might wonder about it.

 

[MonFrere]

Leela,

Your honesty is admirable. I think your life is a journey just as mine is. We want to know. We want to understand and we want to be understood. We seek love. These desires seem to be universal to all men. Unfortunately, many men allow the living in this world to distract them from the real life that we all find within our person. I would certainly recommend you to continue your seeking for answers. I think you would be benefited by learning to listen to that quiet that’s within each of us and follow it explicitly. I think the comments you make concerning beauty is one of those thoughts you should pursue and see where it leads you.

Being a Christian I would recommend you read the gospels; Jesus teaches much wisdom even if you ignore the part of His message of who He is. I believe Jesus can teach you many things even if you do not accept that He is God’s Son. Many people who are not religious still learn from Jesus.

Also, being a Christian I see something very lovable about you and the forthright nature with with you express yourself to people who “are” religious people. There’s something almost remarkable about opening your vulnerabilities to us. I’m reminded about a story in the gospels where a man came to Jesus and asked Him what he needed to do. Jesus mentioned the commandments, and Jesus listed several of the ten commandments. This person inquiring of Jesus said that he kept all these commands from his youth. The scriptures at this point simply say - and Jesus loved him. I really think that if you were the one inquiring of Jesus that day and you would tell him the same story that you related to us Jesus would look on you and feel that same love toward you; because to me, a Christian, that who Jesus is.

Seek beauty, Seek love.

All the best,
MonFrere

 

[James_Least]

Leela,

Your honesty is admirable. I think your life is a journey just as mine is. We want to know. We want to understand and we want to be understood. We seek love. These desires seem to be universal to all men. Unfortunately, many men allow the living in this world to distract them from the real life that we all find within our person. I would certainly recommend you to continue your seeking for answers. I think you would be benefited by learning to listen to that quiet that’s within each of us and follow it explicitly. I think the comments you make concerning beauty is one of those thoughts you should pursue and see where it leads you.

Being a Christian I would recommend you read the gospels; Jesus teaches much wisdom even if you ignore the part of His message of who He is. I believe Jesus can teach you many things even if you do not accept that He is God’s Son. Many people who are not religious still learn from Jesus.​

---

Following from: James Least

Honesty–perhaps. However, going full circle on critical thinking and winding up basically agnostic is not being honest with one’s self. Albert Einstein acknowledged an intelligence much higher than his. Yet, there is no evidence that he had a personal relationship with his creator. Jesus is not only saviour, He is also the creator. See John ch. 1 and Romans Ch. 1. Ask God to remove the agnostic spirit. He does it all the time.

He will take away the “a-theos” spirit too.

Where will you be in 100 years?

James Least​

---

Also, being a Christian I see something very lovable about you and the forthright nature with with you express yourself to people who “are” religious people. There’s something almost remarkable about opening your vulnerabilities to us. I’m reminded about a story in the gospels where a man came to Jesus and asked Him what he needed to do. Jesus mentioned the commandments, and Jesus listed several of the ten commandments. This person inquiring of Jesus said that he kept all these commands from his youth. The scriptures at this point simply say - and Jesus loved him. I really think that if you were the one inquiring of Jesus that day and you would tell him the same story that you related to us Jesus would look on you and feel that same love toward you; because to me, a Christian, that who Jesus is.

Seek beauty, Seek love.

All the best,
MonFrere

 

[PRmerger]

In my understanding of Christian theology, faith is a gift from God. It is a gift that I have not been given. Perhaps it is best for you to think of me as like Paul before being struck on the road to Damascus (without the history of persecuting Christians!) or a
doubting Thomas for whom Jesus has not yet made himself known.

Faith, like love, is many things. It is indeed, as you say, a gift. But it is also a decision.

"Subjectively, the core of faith is the* will,** not the intellect. Though informed by the intellect, it is the will that freely chooses to believe."* -Peter Kreeft

More here.

 

[PRmerger]

I have no concern about damnation as a punishment for my lack of belief. If God does exist, I can’t imagine that the creator of this wonderful world made it as a great multiple choice test to see if we pick the right religion and to punish or reward us based on this one choice, especially since belief is not even a choice.

Again, from Peter Kreeft:

"Faith is not the relation between an intellect and an idea, but the relation between an I and a Thou. That is why faith makes the difference between heaven and hell. God does not send you to hell for flunking his theology exam but for willingly divorcing from him."

 

[PRmerger]

My question is this: how certain would I need to be about the divinity of Jesus to be saved? If I ascribe any non-zero probability to the existence of God is that enough? Or must I be more than 50% certain? Is that even enough? Must I be something like 89% certain or even more certain than that? Does the Catechism give any guidelines here?

Best,
Leela

"Depends on what you mean by “enough”. If you mean “enough to be saved” then I submit this is Minimum Daily Adult Requirement thinking.** No lover asks “What’s the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?” **Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then “How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?” is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ. Our goal, according to Scripture, is not to achieve bare minimums of love, fellowship and discipleship with Christ and His Bride, but to “attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;… we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love” (Ephesians 4:13-16). -Mark Shea

More Mark here.