Requirements of Prophethood and recognising true Revelation

[dann]

So if your understanding is prophetic spiritual understanding also includes miracles.

I know people who fit that criteria.

Who are the prophetic people you know that meet this criteria??

 

[Kei]

I don’t know many who claim to be prophets.

I guess the various prophets in the Bible and some saints

 

[Gorgias]

Gorgias:

The two questions are distinct, wouldn’t you say?

Not really.

I would say that they are. I believe in Jesus because of the witness testimonies to his preaching, miracles, death, and most importantly, His resurrection and ascension into heaven. He is who He said He is.

I believe in Divine Revelation because Jesus revered it (in the OT) and gave the apostles authority to teach what He taught them – and, among the methods they chose were verbal (Apostolic Teaching) and written (Scripture).

So, the two questions really are distinct, and as such, have distinct answers.

You stated about a Prophet, “he receives a commission from God to prophesy”, and since sanctity has nothing to do with this commission, I ask what if Satan intervenes in this and deceives the Prophet?

Aah… you’re asking whether prophets can be deceived about the Revelation that they receive?

You also stated, “and the word he tells the intended audience is the Word of God that he received”, and since God would not protect this Prophet, I ask what if Satan intervenes in this and deceives the Prophet?

Got it.

What I said is different from what you’re asking, though: initially, you asked if God protected prophets from committing sins, not whether God protects them from the devil. Again, these are two distinct questions.

I would still answer “no” to the first. But, I would think that the answer to the second is that the Father of Lies would not tell the Truth to the prophets of God, so we could discern an error by its very words.

In any case, we as Catholics believe that Divine Revelation ceased with the death of the last apostle and no further revelation is forthcoming. Therefore, since Jesus (implicitly) accepted the prophets of the Old Testament, we don’t have to worry that they prophesied in error. And, there are no ‘real’ prophets forthcoming, following Jesus, so we don’t have to worry that there will be any authentic prophets who will be tempted after the time that He returned to heaven.

 

[fisherman_carl]

Jesus was prophesied about by the prophets. He fulfilled the Scriptures. The greatest test of a prophet is whether their prophecy is fulfilled. Otherwise it is worthless. The prophets in the OT prophesied that the Messiah would come and he did, though not all recognized him, but those who were destined to be saved did.

 

[dann]

Yes there are prophets for today…

Mark Taylor the fire fighter seems fit the bill

And Johnathon cahn .
seems to have the voice of god for this time.

 

[MPat]

So the question is NOT, who He could and could not commission to Prophethood, rather the question is how would we recognise true divine revelation and a true Prophet?

There is a debate from 12th century that (among other things) discusses this question: Internet History Sourcebooks Project.

And there it is said: “If God wants the salvation of the whole world, His messengers should be sent to the whole world, too. And anyone who pretends to be a Messenger of God needs a sign to corroborate his assertions; he needs also a power from God to confirm his message.”, “They are three: to make miracles, to speak various languages and avoid worldly things.”.

Then there’s consistency of message etc. (It has been mentioned already.)

The question “How do we know this is a true prophet?” is not that different from the question “How do we know this witness is not lying?”.

I maintain that even prior to being commissioned to Prophethood, and receiving divine revelation, the would be Prophet must be known among his people for his truthful and upright character, and must be protected by God from lying and disobeying God especially after being commissioned to Prophethood.

The problem with that is that it’s assuming the church has the authority, how do we know it does?

The second quote answers the first.

That is, how would you know if the “candidate prophet” really has “truthful and upright character”?

For example, how do you know Muhammed had “truthful and upright character”? If you already have an assumption that he was a prophet, the conclusion does follow, but it is not useful in that case.

But if you do not have the assumption “Muhammed is a prophet.” yet, how do you reach conclusion “Muhammed had truthful and upright character.”?

After all, it looks like the number of wives seems to disqualify him, unless you can show that such a number was allowed - and that, in turn, seems to require already knowing that he was a prophet - which is what is supposed to be proved as a conclusion. Wouldn’t arguing in such way be circular?

 

[anon65111186]

There are no more prophets after Jesus, in the public revelation sense. Private revelation is the only thing left, which confirms and strengthens public revelation.

 

[STT]

With respect to prophets, there was the notion that ‘true prophets’ were known by the accuracy of their prophecies; therefore, one way to discern false prophets was that they said things that didn’t come to pass. Moreover, a true prophet would never say something at odds with God’s Word or His covenants.

I thought that you believed that God reveals His foreknowledge since that would to a contradiction.

 

[STT]

The problem with that is that it’s assuming the church has the authority, how do we know it does? Please don’t point to scripture, because that is just begging the question and leads to circularity.

I agree with you on this. But doesn’t that applies to Mohammad too?

 

[JamesATyler]

I think that God chooses his prophets and prepares them. Some prophets did not need much preparation like Moses. Others needed much more preparation. I think the reason why is because of what you are referring to as the intervention of Satan. The ability to recognize God as opposed to Satan would have to be something they are prepared to do because the inability to do so could cause the would be prophet to go into error even if by only misunderstanding. I think we believe that Abraham was able to recognize God and believe him. Wasn’t that why he was chosen as the father of so many?

 

[Vico]

… Satan may intervene at any time, never allowing for trust or certainty.

Satan can only do what God allows. We believe in providence. Modern Catholic Dictionary, Providence:

God’s all-wise plan for the universe, and the carrying out of his plan by his loving rule or governance. the eternal world plan and its fulfillment in time are together called divine providence. As expressed by the First Vatican Council (1869-1870), “God in His providence watches over and governs all the things that He made, reaching from end to end with might and disposing all things with gentleness” (Denzinger 3003). Divine providence is universal in that all events, even the most personal decisions of human beings, are part of god’s eternal plan. It is infallibly certain because the ultimate purpose that God has for the universe will not fail. And it is immutable because God himself cannot change. (Etym. Latin providentia, foresight, foreknowledge.)

 

[STT]

Satan can only do what God allows. We believe in providence.

So how could we know that Satan intervene or not if God allows it? We cannot ask God.

 

[JamesATyler]

That’s the problem I think. What exactly would it take for you to believe that God was speaking to you? Signs? Wonders? They way he sounds? If a voice whispered in your ear, would you be able to know that it was God? My guess is that being a prophet isn’t very easy. As to the degree of righteousness a person should have, I have no idea, but since most people are inclined to whatever their sins might be, we could stray even if we knew God’s voice. Didn’t some of the old testament kings speak with the Lord yet didn’t one of them end up following false gods for a while until his son was sick and then the Lord wouldn’t answer his prayers?

Not only do you have to know that it is God, but you have to be righteous enough to be obedient right? Someone mentioned that one of the prophets decided to not go where the Lord wanted him, so the Lord brought him there with his own means. So that does show that God is willing to put up with some disobedience in some cases, but I guess the more righteous the better.

 

[mhmtas63]

I agree with you on this. But doesn’t that applies to Mohammad too?

Satan also tried to deceive Jesus but it was fruitless. Ofcourse Muhammad could be objected for His claims and in the beginning He was but He performed thousands of miracles and preached Quran. Quran is direct revelation from God and I can prove that.

Jesus taught apostles but what I know Churchs affected by Paul who had never seen Jesus. And someone say the revelation finished with Jesus but claim that God could revealed some men in Church to establish new faith!

 

[Gorgias]

I thought that you believed that God reveals His foreknowledge since that would to a contradiction.

Nice try.

Read some of the prophecies of the Old Testament. They’re not of the variety you’re positing (“you will have tea with breakfast”). Rather, they’re either conditional (“do this or else that will happen”), or on a scale greater than individual action (“because ya’ll have done this, the consequences will be that”).

There’s nothing in them that allows an individual to thwart God’s will, as you have attempted to assert in the past.

 

[Vico]

Vico:

Satan can only do what God allows. We believe in providence.

So how could we know that Satan intervene or not if God allows it? We cannot ask God.

We have been told by Jesus Christ:

John 8

43 Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

John 10

22 And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. 30 I and the Father are one.

 

[STT]

Satan also tried to deceive Jesus but it was fruitless. Ofcourse Muhammad could be objected for His claims and in the beginning He was but He performed thousands of miracles and preached Quran. Quran is direct revelation from God and I can prove that.

I am waiting for your proof.

Jesus taught apostles but what I know Churchs affected by Paul who had never seen Jesus. And someone say the revelation finished with Jesus but claim that God could revealed some men in Church to establish new faith!

The same applies to Muslim. Are you aware of Tafsir or interpretation?

 

[STT]

Nice try.

Read some of the prophecies of the Old Testament. They’re not of the variety you’re positing (“you will have tea with breakfast”). Rather, they’re either conditional (“do this or else that will happen”), or on a scale greater than individual action (“because ya’ll have done this, the consequences will be that”).

There’s nothing in them that allows an individual to thwart God’s will, as you have attempted to assert in the past.

Oh, well, mentioning that a temple will be destroyed without mentioning exactly when is not prophecy. Everything is subject of destruction if you wait enough long.

 

[STT]

We have been told by Jesus Christ:

John 8

43 Why do you not know my speech? Because you cannot hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and he stood not in the truth; because truth is not in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof.

John 10

22 And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. 27 My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. 30 I and the Father are one.

So you are telling me that I am not a sheep.

 

[Vico]

…
So you are telling me that I am not a sheep.

You would have to decide that. Jesus Christ is the Good Shepherd, so those that recognize his voice are his sheep (disciples).