Researching Islam?

  • Thread starter Thread starter anon97089806
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
anon97089806 said:
Thanks for the help, my main reason for posting was I had no idea where to start… which I already realized I was confusing Buddha and Muhammad(which makes me realize I literally know nothing about Muhammad), for whatever reason.

Think I will probably start with an English translation of the Quran, and the Muslim perspective of things, then move onto the non-Muslim views.

Actually not even sure if there is actually a Mosque near me, I am assuming there is one near the college I plan on going to, though.
Click to expand...
My favorite contemporary Islamic author is Seyyed Hossain Nasr, who is a Shi’ite and a Sufi. Fazlur Rahman is a good representative of a pretty mainstream, orthodox, moderately conservative Islam.

If you go to your local mosque, the chances are that you will encounter a fairly “fundamentalist” version of Islam (I mean this in the same way we’d use the term in Christianity, not in the sense the media often use it to mean “militant, violent Islam”). Saudi Arabia has used its oil wealth to spread its version of Islam around the world. So you may find a gap between what you read in books by people like Nasr and what you encounter in the mosque. They will likely be very friendly and courteous but will be very interested in converting you. You are likely to encounter arguments saying that the Qur’an somehow anticipated modern scientific knowledge and thus must be the Word of God (I find these arguments to be bogus), and criticisms of the doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus (doctrines Muslims don’t understand very well, but of course most Christians don’t either, so Muslim criticisms often have a lot of traction with Christians who have always found the Church’s teachings confusing).

Feel free to come back and talk to us once you have read some more and talk to some Muslims. It’s important in this kind of inquiry to be both open-minded and critical.

I’m kind of the expert in not being converted to things. I have nearly become Catholic over and over (including this past year) and always talked myself out of it. Islam has never really gotten off the ground with me, for reasons I’d be happy to explain but might be premature at this point (though I love Sufism–if I ever did become Muslim, it would be in order to be a Sufi).

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
If you go to your local mosque, the chances are that you will encounter a fairly “fundamentalist” version of Islam (I mean this in the same way we’d use the term in Christianity, not in the sense the media often use it to mean “militant, violent Islam”). Saudi Arabia has used its oil wealth to spread its version of Islam around the world. So you may find a gap between what you read in books by people like Nasr and what you encounter in the mosque. They will likely be very friendly and courteous but will be very interested in converting you. You are likely to encounter arguments saying that the Qur’an somehow anticipated modern scientific knowledge and thus must be the Word of God (I find these arguments to be bogus), and criticisms of the doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus (doctrines Muslims don’t understand very well, but of course most Christians don’t either, so Muslim criticisms often have a lot of traction with Christians who have always found the Church’s teachings confusing).
Click to expand...
I lived in Egypt for three years where I studied Arabic and have gone to mosques both in the Middle East and in the US. As you said, many mosques in the US are fairly conservative or even fundamentalist due to Saudi influence. Others are a little bit less so such as the Islamic Center of Southern California in Los Angeles which also has classes for people who want to learn about Islam (i.e. prospective converts). People in many mosques might try to convert a non-Muslim visitor. A woman visitor will usually not be able to enter the main prayer hall but will likely be told to enter by a separate entrance for women. The women’s prayer spaces are (so I’m told) often cramped and usually they have to watch the sermon (khutba) by remote TV or behind one-way glass that the men in the main prayer space cannot see through. A few mosques such as the Jones Street Mosque in San Francisco allow women in the main prayer space but they are segregated from the men and sit at the very back.

There are a few “progressive” mosques in the US and Canada, but not many. Some big universities will also have a Muslim Students Association that a young person might be able to visit.

Many mosques are also rather anti-Sufi although there are some specifically Sufi mosques in a few places such as the Dergah al-Farah in New York City (Nur Ashki Jerrahi Sufi Order). I prayed there with them the last time I was in Manhattan and lots of Muslims from the area came for Friday prayer.

Another place to learn about Islam is on Facebook in groups such as the very liberal Muslims for Progressive Values or the much more conservative Revert Muslims Association (mostly Muslim converts).
 
Islamic sources are the best things to go to. When you learn about a religion, the most responsible thing to do is to go to its sources, to learn first hand. Martin Lings’ biography of Prophet Muhammad is an excellent source; it’s not too dry, like many other biographies I find to be. Some are so scholarly that it’s like reading a textbook, but Martin Lings did a great job at making his book with a good sense of balance, between being intellectual and readable.

The Qur’an is the most obvious choice, though. If you want an english translation, I reccomend Abdullah Yusuf Ali’s translation. Thought it is a bit dated, it’s still my favorite. Sahih International is another good one, though it lacks a commentary, whereas Yusuf Ali’s has one.
 
Thorolfr said:
You might want to start off by reading a modern biography of the Prophet Muhammad such as the one by the British author Karen Armstrong, *Muhammad: A Prophet for Our Time *(HarperOne, 2007) or the one by University of North Carolina professor Omid Safi, Memories of Muhammad: Why the Prophet Matters (HarperOne, 2009). Both Muslims and non-Muslims have recommended Armstrong’s book to me. Omid Safi is himself a Muslim and a well known scholar of Islam.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I second that. Karen Armstrong’s book is quite good. It’s a good introduction and I enjoyed it.
 
Contarini said:
My favorite contemporary Islamic author is Seyyed Hossain Nasr, who is a Shi’ite and a Sufi. Fazlur Rahman is a good representative of a pretty mainstream, orthodox, moderately conservative Islam.

If you go to your local mosque, the chances are that you will encounter a fairly “fundamentalist” version of Islam (I mean this in the same way we’d use the term in Christianity, not in the sense the media often use it to mean “militant, violent Islam”). Saudi Arabia has used its oil wealth to spread its version of Islam around the world. So you may find a gap between what you read in books by people like Nasr and what you encounter in the mosque. They will likely be very friendly and courteous but will be very interested in converting you. You are likely to encounter arguments saying that the Qur’an somehow anticipated modern scientific knowledge and thus must be the Word of God (I find these arguments to be bogus), and criticisms of the doctrine of the Trinity and the divinity of Jesus (doctrines Muslims don’t understand very well, but of course most Christians don’t either, so Muslim criticisms often have a lot of traction with Christians who have always found the Church’s teachings confusing).

Feel free to come back and talk to us once you have read some more and talk to some Muslims. It’s important in this kind of inquiry to be both open-minded and critical.

I’m kind of the expert in not being converted to things. I have nearly become Catholic over and over (including this past year) and always talked myself out of it. Islam has never really gotten off the ground with me, for reasons I’d be happy to explain but might be premature at this point (though I love Sufism–if I ever did become Muslim, it would be in order to be a Sufi).

Edwin
Click to expand...
Seyyed Hossain Nasr is actually Sunni, this was told me by one of his mureeds.

And you are correct, you have to watch which local mosque you go to, because many mosque in America have been heavily influenced by Wahabism because of Saudi Oil.

But thanks to Sunni scholars like Shaykh Seyyed Hossain Nasr, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, Shaykh Zaid Shakir, Shaykh Faraz Rabbani and the internet, zaytuna etc etc., Wahabism has been on a decline.
 
All your contributions have been very valuable but for someone who is even too lazy to look for the right forum and whose knowledge is such that he(she?) confuses even Mohammad with Buddha (one is bearded and the other is clean-shaven with a pot belly - sorry, am I sterotyping?), why not just start with wikipedia. It has a long series of articles on Islam with (name removed by moderator)ut from non-Muslims experts who have been mentioned in earlier posts. Also, Muslims watch these articles like hawks and will not hesitate to edit anything contrary to Islam. So, I find it well balanced and reflects the general consensus.

If such an introduction is sufficient for your purpose, then well and good. If you need more after that (I find the wikipedia lacking in critical analysis, alternative minority views are a little over-stated and has insufficient scriptural references), you can always branch out but hopefully, by then you would be familiar with the reference sites available.

Also, the OP strikes me as someone who is new to exploring other religions and (at the risk of reading too much into it) he may not be all that sure of where he stands, I would like to share a truism on inter-religious dialogue that has stayed with me since I got it from a Sufi 25 years ago:

“Inter-religious dialogue is like opening windows into other people’s homes. But windows imply walls”

If you are exploring with an view to converting, then it is up to you. If you are exploring to understand how the other half thinks, then make sure you know where your boundaries are, beyond which you can no longer call yourself a 'Lutheran … sort of"
 
jimkhong said:
All your contributions have been very valuable but for someone who is even too lazy to look for the right forum and whose knowledge is such that he(she?) confuses even Mohammad with Buddha (one is bearded and the other is clean-shaven with a pot belly - sorry, am I sterotyping?), why not just start with wikipedia. It has a long series of articles on Islam with (name removed by moderator)ut from non-Muslims experts who have been mentioned in earlier posts. Also, Muslims watch these articles like hawks and will not hesitate to edit anything contrary to Islam. So, I find it well balanced and reflects the general consensus.

If such an introduction is sufficient for your purpose, then well and good. If you need more after that (I find the wikipedia lacking in critical analysis, alternative minority views are a little over-stated and has insufficient scriptural references), you can always branch out but hopefully, by then you would be familiar with the reference sites available.

Also, the OP strikes me as someone who is new to exploring other religions and (at the risk of reading too much into it) he may not be all that sure of where he stands, I would like to share a truism on inter-religious dialogue that has stayed with me since I got it from a Sufi 25 years ago:

“Inter-religious dialogue is like opening windows into other people’s homes. But windows imply walls”

If you are exploring with an view to converting, then it is up to you. If you are exploring to understand how the other half thinks, then make sure you know where your boundaries are, beyond which you can no longer call yourself a 'Lutheran … sort of"
Click to expand...
Honestly, for being confused about Mohammed and Buddha, I was mostly just mixing up the names.

I was unsure about using Wikipedia since I have heard it is an unreliable source for other things. But, I did have an idea on where to start from Muslim YouTubers I watch, came here for less… biased sources.

I guess I forgot to state in the OP that I was looking into converting, maybe… after making sure I am okay with everything in Islam. Honestly only calling myself Lutheran at the moment because that is what I was raised as and was confirmed in a Lutheran church a few years ago.

Once again, thanks for the help.
 
anon97089806 said:
Honestly, for being confused about Mohammed and Buddha, I was mostly just mixing up the names.

I was unsure about using Wikipedia since I have heard it is an unreliable source for other things. But, I did have an idea on where to start from Muslim YouTubers I watch, came here for less… biased sources.

I guess I forgot to state in the OP that I was looking into converting, maybe… after making sure I am okay with everything in Islam. Honestly only calling myself Lutheran at the moment because that is what I was raised as and was confirmed in a Lutheran church a few years ago.

Once again, thanks for the help.
Click to expand...
All the best to your journey, but if you wish to bounce ideas off, come back to us or a pastor/priest whom you trust. Some Muslims missionaries can be rather aggressive and may not put forward the fulness of the facts of their faith or the implications of converting to Islam if they think it reduces the chances of you converting. This happens a lot in my country though I cannot say how things where you are, though I understand that mosques sponsored by the Saudi govt tend to be like that.
 
HungerNThirst4R said:
Hey Avinia,

I often research religions, because I’m a religion geek;). My rule of thumb to get a full spectrum of a religion is to research what they (active practioners or the religion) say about it, what we (members of my religion, in your case Lutherans) say about it and what other outside sources say about it (nonbiased historic texts).

You must remember that when researching Islam (or even Catholicism for that matter) there are numerous sources dedicated to bashing it and spreading lies, please avoid those sources.

Reading an English translation of the Qur’an is a good start but there are also Hadiths (sayings of the prophet that certain Islamic rules are based on. Not all Muslims follow the hadiths and some only follow the ones attributed to Muhammad and not his followers).

Just like Christianity, but not as splintered, there are different branches of Islam. Shia and Sunni, as well as subdenominations within them as well as people who make no distinction between either group, similar to nondenominational Christians I guess.

I think studying religions is a great thing. It truly can help you understand other people and their culture as well as breed love and tolerance. Also I think there is nothing wrong with investigating other religions just to see if you are in the right one. I’ve done a lot of that and I’ve always found the trail of Truth lead back to the same place 🙂
Click to expand...
I agree with your points here HungerNThirst4R, especially your last one 🙂
 
First of all, Lutheranism is a branch inside of Christianity. Christianity is a world religion with many different branches and sects. The same goes for Islam, and all world religions for that matter. There are differences in beliefs between Sunni, Shia, Sufi, Ahmidiyyah Muslim communities.
Islam is an interesting religion, and is considered an Abrahamic religion, the other two being Judaism and Christianity, because they all trace their origin to Abraham. In Islam you have a sole oneness of God interpretation, much like Judaism. Islam believes that Allah( God) in Arabic sent prophets and messengers to speak the message throughout history. The five most important messengers in Islam are Abraham, Noah, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. The faith claims, without any evidence that the Torah given by Moses and the Gospel given by Jesus were corrupted by humanity throughout the years, and yes they believe Jesus was not divine but a prophet, and deny his crucifixion saying he was brought to heaven before they could, kind of like the story of Elijah. Islam rejects the claim that Jesus was the son of God however does call him the messiah and do believe he will return again on judgment day. Muhammad is revered more so, though technically he no greater that say Moses or Jesus( Musa and Isa) in Arabic. Muhammad in Islam however brought the final truth to humanity from God and is the seal of the prophets. Originally Islam allowed Jews, Christians, and Zoroastrians to keep their faith. Really it wasn’t until the crusades and the Spanish Inquisition that things got bad between Islam and Christianity. Really Judaism didn’t have issues with Islam until the creation of Israel.
 
Avinia said:
Honestly, for being confused about Mohammed and Buddha, I was mostly just mixing up the names.

I was unsure about using Wikipedia since I have heard it is an unreliable source for other things. But, I did have an idea on where to start from Muslim YouTubers I watch, came here for less… biased sources.

I guess I forgot to state in the OP that I was looking into converting, maybe… after making sure I am okay with everything in Islam. Honestly only calling myself Lutheran at the moment because that is what I was raised as and was confirmed in a Lutheran church a few years ago.

Once again, thanks for the help.
Click to expand...
What are your initial reasons for considering Islam and rejecting Lutheran Christianity (and Christianity in general)?

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
What are your initial reasons for considering Islam and rejecting Lutheran Christianity (and Christianity in general)?

Edwin
Click to expand...
Sorry for the late reply, meant to reply earlier but ended up getting distracted with my graduation and stuff.

Honestly, at this moment, it is more of just a curiousity for researching Islam. Have no idea if I will actually end up converting or not in the future.

For “rejecting” my Lutheran faith, there never really was any faith there for me, I guess I just never got it. I actually have been searching for a religion for a while now, since I mostly decided I could never give up the idea of there being a creator, and I ended up at Islam since it still seems to be similar to the Christian God.

Thankfully, if I ever do decide to convert, like I think I already said, my family seems like they will accept it(but likely not agree). I imagine the only ones who would take issue are the somewhat annoying family members who are paranoid about sleeper agents in America.
 
If you want to learn about Islam from a Christian perspective one interesting way to do it is read or view materials about christians who were former Muslims.

A friend of mine from medical school who was from Iran was Bahai.

His father was the youngest colonel in the Iranian army. When the Iranian army found out he was Bahai they had to flee Iran, the whole family, to avoid being killed for not being Muslim.

My friend told me when he went to high school in Iran all the students had to walk over an American flag and they would all gather in the courtyard and chant, “death to america! Death to Israel! death to Iraq!”

I have heard equally disturbing or far more disturbing stories from Pakistanis, Indians, and Armenians from Turkey.

A Pakistani Muslim explained to me how awful Islam could be towards women and how easy it was to rape a woman in Pakistan and get away with it.

An Armenian Christian told me how his whole family was cleansed by muslims during the Armenian genocide and how wearing a crucifix in the countryside was a sure way to get killed.

Islam as it is practiced by many countries governments and peoples is extremely intolerant and lethal. Some are tolerant of other religions with a milder application of sharia law but I hear there is a radicalization of many Islamic states in the Middle East.

That is not an anti Islamic statement but reports I have personally received from christians and non christians and Muslims who have lived in the Middle East.

We all have our criticisms of our own countries and I have quite a few about the United States, but I have heard enough first hand accounts that paint and unpleasant picture to be dubious about the holiness of Islam and it’s prophet by the example of governments that impose Sharia.

I had the interesting experience of trying to be converted to Islam by a Muslim in college who I was helping as a translator. He told me that the Koran was the true book of god and that my Christian religion was a corruption amongst other things. I was very polite and still helped him. His other Muslim friend told him to leave me alone, and seemed embarrassed.

This seemed to repeat itself when in France I heard to Muslims conversing. One seemed very impassioned and ended the conversation with “Allah Akbar!” The other just nodded and seemed annoyed, uncomfortable, and a little sad. I won’t go into the details but he one who was uncomfortable was my taxi driver and the other one was just someone on the street who stopped my driver for a chat.

My final conclusion has always been to follow what the bible says about Islam which is similar to what Fr Hardon has said about Islam.

That said I have had Muslim friends and have no problem with them and love them as individuals. It is the religion that frightens me. To be honest though I am just as frightened of my own government in the United States and fear a day when christians may be persecuted by our own government here.
 
Avinia said:
Sorry for the late reply, meant to reply earlier but ended up getting distracted with my graduation and stuff.

Honestly, at this moment, it is more of just a curiousity for researching Islam. Have no idea if I will actually end up converting or not in the future.

For “rejecting” my Lutheran faith, there never really was any faith there for me, I guess I just never got it. I actually have been searching for a religion for a while now, since I mostly decided I could never give up the idea of there being a creator, and I ended up at Islam since it still seems to be similar to the Christian God.

Thankfully, if I ever do decide to convert, like I think I already said, my family seems like they will accept it(but likely not agree). I imagine the only ones who would take issue are the somewhat annoying family members who are paranoid about sleeper agents in America.
Click to expand...
Have you talked to a Lutheran pastor about the reasons why Lutherans believe what they do?

Generally it’s a good idea to have a really deep understanding of the faith you were raised in before rejecting it for something else.

The Trinity bugs a lot of people, I know, and makes them see Islam as more “rational.” To my mind, the Trinity is essential to an understanding of God as relational love. (That may not be your issue, of course.)

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
Have you talked to a Lutheran pastor about the reasons why Lutherans believe what they do?

Generally it’s a good idea to have a really deep understanding of the faith you were raised in before rejecting it for something else.

The Trinity bugs a lot of people, I know, and makes them see Islam as more “rational.” To my mind, the Trinity is essential to an understanding of God as relational love. (That may not be your issue, of course.)

Edwin
Click to expand...
Wel, going to try to reply, if I misspell anything it is because my vision is bad today(actually had to use Apple voice over to read your post).

I did talk to my old pastor while being confirmed after he wuastioned me on why I didn’t end my pryers wih “in Jesus’ name”… Don’t think I really went into the issues I was having at that point because I didn’t want my parents worrying about me. But I do recall having issues with the trinity at that point as well.

Honestly, I don’t know what I will eventually decide, at this point I just want othher options for possible religions. At least compared to my friends, I do have a famly which is somewat okay with me exploring other religions(my friends would likely be disowned if they left Christianity).
 
Thorolfr and Contarini have the best suggestions for reading on Islam.

But I am dismayed that you are even considering converting–to something you apparently know nothing about!

As others have said, be aware that if you go to a mosque or Muslim friends for “information” they will do their best to convert you. You should also be aware that they will not give you the whole picture–they will give you a completely one-sided argument.

They are taking their cue from Muhammad himself: Muhammad was sending a follower, Mu’adh, to Yemen to do missionary work. His advice was “Ask them if they believe in one God and that Muhammad is his prophet; if they say yes, ask them to pray five times a day; if they do that, tell them about zakat (alms)…” The point is that they will not lay out their religion fully. They will ensnare you (a deliberate choice of words) bit by bit. I have seen this happen personally to several women. The demands never stop. “It is good that you are doing x; now you must do y.” There are a lot of books out there written by Western women who converted to Islam and had to spend years (!) extricating themselves from the messes they got into. And of course some never got out.

Go to some of the ex-Muslim web sites. exmna.org (Ex-Muslims of North America) is an example. There are at least 5-6 web sites I am aware of. You will see a pattern–exactly what I explained above. Converts are told only the good things, bit by bit. The good news is that about half (by most estimates) see the light and get out. But of course it’s best not to get in at all!

What’s most disturbing to me about prospective converts is that they don’t bother to look at their own religions. I’m not sure going to a minister or priest is helpful–I don’t think they have either the training or the time to deal with questions. Posing questions on forums like this might be valuable, although you can see already that answers are all over the place. Perhaps picking a reasonable-sounding person and having a 1-to-1 exchange with him/her via e-mail might be more reasonable.
 
Avinia said:
Wel, going to try to reply, if I misspell anything it is because my vision is bad today(actually had to use Apple voice over to read your post).

I did talk to my old pastor while being confirmed after he wuastioned me on why I didn’t end my pryers wih “in Jesus’ name”… Don’t think I really went into the issues I was having at that point because I didn’t want my parents worrying about me. But I do recall having issues with the trinity at that point as well.

Honestly, I don’t know what I will eventually decide, at this point I just want othher options for possible religions. At least compared to my friends, I do have a famly which is somewat okay with me exploring other religions(my friends would likely be disowned if they left Christianity).
Click to expand...
I’d still like to hear more, if you care to share, about exactly what your issues are. The above doesn’t tell me why you have problems with praying “in Jesus’ name” or with the Trinity.

As I said above, I don’t think one can truly say “God is love” in the fullest sense if one doesn’t believe in the Trinity. (That might, in fact, be a good question to ask Muslims. Would they say “Allah is love”?)

The Trinity means that God is, eternally, a joyful life of relational love, into which God invites us.

Take that away, and I for one don’t see any good reason to believe in a single supreme personal God at all. Something like Hinduism or Buddhism would, to my mind, make more sense than non-Trinitarian monotheism.

I don’t expect you to agree. I just wonder if you may be assuming a kind of “simple monotheism” as the starting point and then having trouble with the Trinity as an unnecessary complication of that. And that’s not how I see it at all.

Edwin
 
anon97089806 said:
I guess I forgot to state in the OP that I was looking into converting, maybe… after making sure I am okay with everything in Islam. Honestly only calling myself Lutheran at the moment because that is what I was raised as and was confirmed in a Lutheran church a few years ago.
Click to expand...
Just curious, at what kind of Lutheran church do you worship? And do you know what makes that sort of Lutheran different from others?

If you can’t answer those questions without looking it up, I’d recommend you spend a little more time studying the religion you were confirmed in before you convert to something else. Maybe meet with some Lutheran pastors.

Sometimes the richness we seek is right in front of us.
 
Contarini said:
I’d still like to hear more, if you care to share, about exactly what your issues are. The above doesn’t tell me why you have problems with praying “in Jesus’ name” or with the Trinity.

As I said above, I don’t think one can truly say “God is love” in the fullest sense if one doesn’t believe in the Trinity. (That might, in fact, be a good question to ask Muslims. Would they say “Allah is love”?)

The Trinity means that God is, eternally, a joyful life of relational love, into which God invites us.
Click to expand...
I have talked with a lot of Christians who have converted to Islam, and trouble understanding the trinity is one of the top reasons that many of them give for converting.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top