Resignation

[SavedByGod]

God made me a certain sex and he also made me a certain gender. However, that certain sex does not match that certain gender. God did intend for my gender to be female and he did intend for my sex to be male, why should I change either? Why should I claim anything different. I know that I am a girl and I also know that having a penis does not make me any less of a girl. I don’t need to change my sex to be a girl because I am already a girl in my fathers eyes. I live as a girl because that is what my father wishes of me. I have asked him and he has shown me. I am, of course, referring to my father up in heaven.

Maria, in another post, you mentioned disability. I know very well about disability, as I have Cerebral Palsy and often have to use a wheelchair.

When God created you, he didn’t only give you a penis. He also gave you a certain DNA, a certain set of chromosomes. All of these things together determine one’s sex and one’s gender. Sex and gender are not simply matters of one’s self-understanding. They are matters of what God has determined one to be in one’s birth.

You say that God revealed to you in prayer that you are a girl. This is problematic, because you are basically saying that He revealed one thing to you in prayer (that you are female) and revealed another thing in your very creation and birth (that you are male). God does not contradict Himself. Even if I feel, with every fiber of my being, that I can walk, the fact is, God made me with (or allowed me to have) Cerebral Palsy. What I feel myself to be doesn’t change what I am.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Maria, in another post, you mentioned disability. I know very well about disability, as I have Cerebral Palsy and often have to use a wheelchair.

When God created you, he didn’t only give you a penis. He also gave you a certain DNA, a certain set of chromosomes. All of these things together determine one’s sex and one’s gender. Sex and gender are not simply matters of one’s self-understanding. They are matters of what God has determined one to be in one’s birth.

You say that God revealed to you in prayer that you are a girl. This is problematic, because you are basically saying that He revealed one thing to you in prayer (that you are female) and revealed another thing in your very creation and birth (that you are male). God does not contradict Himself. Even if I feel, with every fiber of my being, that I can walk, the fact is, God made me with (or allowed me to have) Cerebral Palsy. What I feel myself to be doesn’t change what I am.

Wel well 1940s biology again. one out of every physical males has xx chromosomes, and close to that same ratio of females has xy chromosomes… People with xxy chromosome are in the neighborhood of 50/50 between female and male. Nature makes mistakes all the time, or there wouldn’t be hermaphrodites, albinos or people with cerbral pulsy. If the down fall didn’t happen in the garden of Eden every family tree would be void of heart attacks like my father’s , and they are big time carnivores by the way. Funny how we can accept many things as a mistake of nature, then suddenly say nature doesn’t play a part in an aspect of humanity we are uncomfortable with.

 

[SavedByGod]

Wel well 1940s biology again. one out of every physical males has xx chromosomes, and close to that same ratio of females has xy chromosomes… People with xxy chromosome are in the neighborhood of 50/50 between female and male. Nature makes mistakes all the time, or there wouldn’t be hermaphrodites, albinos or people with cerbral pulsy. If the down fall didn’t happen in the garden of Eden every family tree would be void of heart attacks like my father’s , and they are big time carnivores by the way. Funny how we can accept many things as a mistake of nature, then suddenly say nature doesn’t play a part in an aspect of humanity we are uncomfortable with.

What I refer to above is not “1940s biology.” You are forgetting that **God is sovereign ** over biology and over all things. He alone determines whether we are male or female. If we are born with certain chromosomes and anatomy, then we are that gender, by God’s very design and intent. My Cerebral Palsy was not a “mistake,” merely attributable to nature or to human error. Now, humanly speaking, it might possibly have been due to human error, but God is sovereign over all human error, and He is sovereign over nature. It was part of His loving design that I would have Cerebral Palsy-- no mere matter of “human error” or “nature’s mistake.”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

God made me a certain sex and he also made me a certain gender. However, that certain sex does not match that certain gender. God did intend for my gender to be female and he did intend for my sex to be male, why should I change either? Why should I claim anything different. I know that I am a girl and I also know that having a penis does not make me any less of a girl. I don’t need to change my sex to be a girl because I am already a girl in my fathers eyes. I live as a girl because that is what my father wishes of me. I have asked him and he has shown me. I am, of course, referring to my father up in heaven.

So God made a mistake?

How do you explain the genetic makeup that will never change no matter what you do to your body , you will always be a male geneticly.

 

[aspawloski4th]

What I refer to above is not “1940s biology.” You are forgetting that **God is sovereign **over biology and over all things. He alone determines whether we are male or female. If we are born with certain chromosomes and anatomy, then we are that gender, by God’s very design and intent. My Cerebral Palsy was not a “mistake,” merely attributable to nature or to human error. Now, humanly speaking, it might possibly have been due to human error, but God is sovereign over all human error, and He is sovereign over nature. It was part of His loving design that I would have Cerebral Palsy-- no mere matter of “human error” or “nature’s mistake.”

First you don’t undersatand something. Sex is between the legs, and gender is between the ears. You totally ecnored the fact that there are xx males and xy females Obviously there are nature mistakes going on out there. God made the design, nature made the body… If we went by what you said about cerbral pulsy, then we would be sinning if we came up with a cure for it. Ofcourse that wouldn’t be a sin, because while does know you will be born with it, thus he has a plan based on the fact you will have it, that doesn’t mean he intends for you to have it. Because doesn’t intend suffering.

 

[SavedByGod]

First you don’t undersatand something. Sex is between the legs, and gender is between the ears. You totally ecnored the fact that there are xx males and xy females Obviously there are nature mistakes going on out there. God made the design, nature made the body… If we went by what you said about cerbral pulsy, then we would be sinning if we came up with a cure for it. Ofcourse that wouldn’t be a sin, because while does know you will be born with it, thus he has a plan based on the fact you will have it, that doesn’t mean he intends for you to have it. Because doesn’t intend suffering.

Your definition of gender is postmodern and in accord with a psychological school of thought that does not agree with Christianity. According to Dictionary.com, the definition of “gender” (I give the second definition here, as the first one has to do with gender in a particular language’s grammar, which is an entirely different thing) is 2. “sex: the feminine gender.”

Therefore, according to Dictionary.com, “gender” and “sex” are synonymous. It makes no sense to say that “sex is between the legs” and “gender is between the ears.”

You say that “God made the design, nature made the body.” So God is not sovereign over nature?

Also, there is no contradiction between Cerebral Palsy being part of God’s plan for my body, and people working for a cure for Cerebral Palsy. In the Bible, Jesus clearly states that a particular man was born blind so that God would be glorified though him. Does this mean that it would be wrong for people to seek to cure blindness?

 

[aspawloski4th]

Your definition of gender is postmodern and in accord with a psychological school of thought that does not agree with Christianity. According to Dictionary.com, the definition of “gender” (I give the second definition here, as the first one has to do with gender in a particular language’s grammar, which is an entirely different thing) is 2. “sex: the feminine gender.”

Therefore, according to Dictionary.com, “gender” and “sex” are synonymous. It makes no sense to say that “sex is between the legs” and “gender is between the ears.”

You say that “God made the design, nature made the body.” So God is not sovereign over nature?

Also, there is no contradiction between Cerebral Palsy being part of God’s plan for my body, and people working for a cure for Cerebral Palsy. In the Bible, Jesus clearly states that a particular man was born blind so that God would be glorified though him. Does this mean that it would be wrong for people to seek to cure blindness?

If you don’t believe me read this post from another thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4899507#post4899507 It can be easily said you are disagreeing a bit with the Vatican.

 

[aussie_jaz]

If you don’t believe me read this post from another thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4899507#post4899507 It can be easily said you are disagreeing a bit with the Vatican.

if anybody actually really reads that link you have given they will see the parts about the mental instability , psychic disturbance and depression. when you look at situations such as had happened to maria to make her want to resign from her parish and happens all the time to transsexed people it makes a lot of sense as to why many transsex people have these mental health disorders and the attitudes of certain posters here are not doing any favours either.
how about keeping this thread about what it was originally posted for and take all the debate about the ins and outs of the transsexed over to one of the many threads about transsex in the social justice forum. and while there how about reading the many posts by people such as zoe brain before posting ignorant views about the subject.

maria i cant blame you one tiny bit from leaving that parish full of unchristian members. harrassment and abuse (physical,mental or verbal) are never called for and especially so at such a place as a church and by church goers. i hope you can find somewhere you can go where you wont have to put up with any of that sort of behaviour.

 

[SavedByGod]

If you don’t believe me read this post from another thread forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4899507#post4899507 It can be easily said you are disagreeing a bit with the Vatican.

I read through the part of the thread which you linked to, and other parts of the thread as well (from the beginning). The Vatican confirms what I have been saying here! According to the Catholic News Service report on the issue, the Vatican does not state that a person’s gender is determined “through their ears.” Rather, a person’s gender is determined at birth and cannot change– not even through a so-called “sex-change operation.” (Read the parts I bolded below to see the Vatican’s position that gender is not changeable and is also not simply a matter of either anatomy alone or how one views oneself.) To quote from the news report (which takes “gender” to be synonymous with “sex,” just as I and Dictionary.com both do!):

Vatican says ‘sex-change’ operation does not change person’s gender

By John Norton Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – **After years of study, the Vatican’s doctrinal congregation has sent church leaders a confidential document concluding that “sex-change” procedures do not change a person’s gender in the eyes of the church.

Consequently, the document instructs bishops never to alter the sex listed in parish baptismal records and says Catholics who have undergone “sex-change” procedures are not eligible to marry, be ordained to the priesthood or enter religious life, according to a source familiar with the text.**

The document was completed in 2000 and sent “sub secretum” (under secrecy) to the papal representatives in each country to provide guidance on a case-by-case basis to bishops. But when it became clear that many bishops were still unaware of its existence, in 2002 the congregation sent it to the presidents of bishops’ conferences as well.

"The key point is that the (transsexual) surgical operation is so
superficial and external that it does not change the personality. If
the person was male, he remains male. If she was female, she remains female," said the source.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I read through the part of the thread which you linked to, and other parts of the thread as well (from the beginning). The Vatican confirms what I have been saying here! According to the Catholic News Service report on the issue, the Vatican does not state that a person’s gender is determined “through their ears.” Rather, a person’s gender is determined at birth and cannot change– not even through a so-called “sex-change operation.” (Read the parts I bolded below to see the Vatican’s position that gender is not changeable and is also not simply a matter of either anatomy alone or how one views oneself.) To quote from the news report (which takes “gender” to be synonymous with “sex,” just as I and Dictionary.com both do!):

Vatican says ‘sex-change’ operation does not change person’s gender

By John Norton Catholic News Service

VATICAN CITY (CNS) – After years of study, the Vatican’s doctrinal congregation has sent church leaders a confidential document concluding that “sex-change” procedures do not change a person’s gender in the eyes of the church.

Consequently, the document instructs bishops never to alter the sex listed in parish baptismal records and says Catholics who have undergone “sex-change” procedures are not eligible to marry, be ordained to the priesthood or enter religious life, according to a source familiar with the text.

The document was completed in 2000 and sent “sub secretum” (under secrecy) to the papal representatives in each country to provide guidance on a case-by-case basis to bishops. But when it became clear that many bishops were still unaware of its existence, in 2002 the congregation sent it to the presidents of bishops’ conferences as well.

"The key point is that the (transsexual) surgical operation is so
superficial and external that it does not change the personality. If
the person was male, he remains male. If she was female, she remains female," said the source.

Ofcourse sex change surgery doesn’t change gender, it changes the sex to conform with the gender of the brain! And remember that document approves of some sex changes. The brain makes the personaility not the body.

 

[SavedByGod]

Ofcourse sex change surgery doesn’t change gender, it changes the sex to conform with the gender of the brain! And remember that document approves of some sex changes. The brain makes the personaility not the body.

It seems as though you are playing word games here to attempt to change the meaning of the Vatican’s report. When the report states that a sex-change operation does not change a person’s gender, it says nothing about the “sex of the body being changed to conform with the gender of the brain!” There is simply no concept in the report about a “sex of one’s body” and a “gender of one’s mind.”

A human being is a unity of both body and soul. One’s identity is much more than a matter of one’s body alone, or one’s emotions alone, or one’s entire personality. It is true that changing one’s body doesn’t change one’s identity-- because identity is not simply a matter of physicality. However, it is also not simply a matter of what one “feels” oneself to be. Identity is a matter of what God has created one to be-- not excluded to, but definitely including, the physical aspect.

The fact is, God does not “mistakenly” give a penis to a person, when that person is “really” a woman. To think so is to implicitly accuse God of playing games with His creation. A symptom of the confusion of our postmodern times…

 

[aspawloski4th]

It seems as though you are playing word games here to attempt to change the meaning of the Vatican’s report. When the report states that a sex-change operation does not change a person’s gender, it says nothing about the “sex of the body being changed to conform with the gender of the brain!” There is simply no concept in the report about a “sex of one’s body” and a “gender of one’s mind.”

A human being is a unity of both body and soul. Changing one’s body doesn’t change one’s identity-- and identity is not simply a matter of what one “feels” oneself to be. It is a matter of what God has created one to be-- including the physical aspect.

God does not “mistakenly” give a penis to a person, when that person is “really” a woman. The confusion of our postmodern times…

The truth of the matter is there are statements made by individuals in the church , but there is no offical church stand. The church has much on it’s plate and hasnt studied the science of thissue fully yet which I have no problem with since they have many other things going on. There is no difinative chruch possition on the whole issue. I refuse to stoop to the superficialness of defining one solely by their body. Keep in mind the church does make mistake once in a while. Ie the recinding of the sainhood of St Christopher, because they discovered there was no such person, the jailing for Galeo for merely proposing the earth is not the center of the universe later it was proved Galeo was correct, more recently stating we have to do something about global warming when the fact is the earth is not warming. When the church canonizes a saint I’m with them, when the church teaches that there is a purgatory I’m with them. . But they have been wrong on scientific issues in the past both distant and recent. Then theres the document that does approve of some sexchanges you ecnore. Iv’e been studieing the issue since the mid 1970s from just about every angle I can find. You read up on trassexuality yourself, a good book to start out with is " True Selves" when you have read up on it for 30+ years get back to me.

 

[aborodki]

Maria,

I am sorry, but i do not understand why you were being harassed and why you didn’t seek civil help? If these people were threatening you, did you contact the police? Nobody should threaten another person…

 

[aspawloski4th]

Maria,

I am sorry, but i do not understand why you were being harassed and why you didn’t seek civil help? If these people were threatening you, did you contact the police? Nobody should threaten another person…

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=322195
Take a look at this thread I started, and it will give you a bit of an idea why Maria is being treated the way she is.

 

[SavedByGod]

The truth of the matter is there are statements made by individuals in the church , but there is no offical church stand. The church has much on it’s plate and hasnt studied the science of thissue fully yet which I have no problem with since they have many other things going on. There is no difinative chruch possition on the whole issue. I refuse to stoop to the superficialness of defining one solely by their body. Keep in mind the church does make mistake once in a while. Ie the recinding of the sainhood of St Christopher, because they discovered there was no such person, the jailing for Galeo for merely proposing the earth is not the center of the universe later it was proved Galeo was correct, more recently stating we have to do something about global warming when the fact is the earth is not warming. When the church canonizes a saint I’m with them, when the church teaches that there is a purgatory I’m with them. . But they have been wrong on scientific issues in the past both distant and recent. Then theres the document that does approve of some sexchanges you ecnore. Iv’e been studieing the issue since the mid 1970s from just about every angle I can find. You read up on trassexuality yourself, a good book to start out with is " True Selves" when you have read up on it for 30+ years get back to me.

I’m listening to what you are saying. I really am. There is just one problem though-- you mention the Church being wrong on “scientific matters” in the past. However, what we do with our bodies, and the way that we think of our sexuality, are not only “scientific matters.” They are moral matters. The Catholic Church is not free to change its official teaching on matters of faith and morals.

For anyone who truly wants to hear, the Catholic Church has spoken clearly on one’s gender and one’s sex. It does not speak of them as being different things. According to the Church, one’s gender/sex is determined by God and God alone, and He does so long before we are ever sufficiently conscious to think or feel anything about it.

According to unchanging Catholic moral teaching, how one feels about oneself does not, and cannot, change one’s gender/sex. To think that it can do so is a manifestation of an age which prizes one’s feelings over objective, God-given truth.

I grieve deeply over the pain of anyone who is struggling with the gender that God chose to give. That pain is very real, and it should not be treated lightly. I grieve deeply over, and strongly oppose, the mistreatment of anyone with such struggles. Ultimately though, one’s self-perception or self-understanding does not determine what or who one objectively is, as determined by God-- again, before any of us ever had a thought about it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Ofcourse sex change surgery doesn’t change gender, it changes the sex to conform with the gender of the brain! And remember that document approves of some sex changes. The brain makes the personaility not the body.

I might be able to agree with you if the Church did not explicitly state that a person who undergoes such mutilation, as that is what a “sex change” operation really is, is not eligible for ordination nor can they enter religious life. The Church is also not to alter the sex as listed on baptismal records.

Its also a fact that a “sex change” operation does not change the sex to “conform with the gender of the brain” as the gender is determined by genetics which medical science can not change. A man is a man no matter what mutilation is done to his body just as a woman is a woman no mater what mutilation is done to her body.

Seems you are reading into what the Church says what you wish it to say rather than actually reading what it says.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I’m listening to what you are saying. I really am. There is just one problem though-- you mention the Church being wrong on “scientific matters” in the past. However, what we do with our bodies, and the way that we think of our sexuality, are not only “scientific matters.” They are moral matters. The Catholic Church is not free to change its official teaching on matters of faith and morals.

For anyone who truly wants to hear, the Catholic Church has spoken clearly on one’s gender and one’s sex. It does not speak of them as being different things. According to the Church, one’s gender/sex is determined by God and God alone, and He does so long before we are ever sufficiently conscious to think or feel anything about it.

According to unchanging Catholic moral teaching, how one feels about oneself does not, and cannot, change one’s gender/sex. To think that it can do so is a manifestation of an age which prizes one’s feelings over objective, God-given truth.

I grieve deeply over the pain of anyone who is struggling with the gender that God chose to give. That pain is very real, and it should not be treated lightly. I grieve deeply over, and strongly oppose, the mistreatment of anyone with such struggles. Ultimately though, one’s self-perception or self-understanding does not determine what or who one objectively is, as determined by God-- again, before any of us ever had a thought about it.

Sexuality and gender identity are two different things. Being transsexual myself, I never thought about sexuality. If I was to transition to the woman I am inside I could live without sex forever just fine Gender identity is a psychological issue which makes it scientific. Gender and sex are not the same thing, they are a binary reresenting two side of the human being, sex being the physical and gender being the non physical. If the church hasnt caught up to the current psychological and medical knowledge there isn’t much I can do about that. Anyone telling me I have to p-retend to be someone I am not to be moral is going to fall on deaf ears Having to pretend to be someone who I am not, has been determined by testing to be a large cause of my emotional impairments as a child and still a bit as an adult. Solutions that The Doctor James Dobson types have come up with to reverse transsexuality have been the couse of many suicides/attempts. I guess when we tell children to be themselves when growing up, what we really mean is be what we want you to be.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

I would also question if a person with this condition should ever be placed in a leadership position within the Church, especially in youth ministry.

I also have to state, if I have not said it yet in this thread, that we are only getting one side of the story of being “abused” or “bullied” by individuals in the parish.

If the main issue is that the parish does not feel that this person should be involved in the youth ministry program then I do not see that as bullying or abuse at all but a prudent move by the parish.

I am not saying that this person does not have a place in the parish and Church. I am not saying that they should be abused because of their condition. I am saying that what they perceive as abuse may not be such though.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I might be able to agree with you if the Church did not explicitly state that a person who undergoes such mutilation, as that is what a “sex change” operation really is, is not eligible for ordination nor can they enter religious life. The Church is also not to alter the sex as listed on baptismal records.

Its also a fact that a “sex change” operation does not change the sex to “conform with the gender of the brain” as the gender is determined by genetics which medical science can not change. A man is a man no matter what mutilation is done to his body just as a woman is a woman no mater what mutilation is done to her body.

Seems you are reading into what the Church says what you wish it to say rather than actually reading what it says.

But it says it is OK in some cases! Which you ecnore.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But it says it is OK in some cases! Which you ecnore.

I assume you mean “ignore” which I do not. While the Church says it is “OK” in some cases it still says that they are not eligible for ordination or religious life and their sex/gender is not to be changed on baptismal records, so while the “sex-change” procedure may be “OK” it does nothing to actually change the sex/gender in the eyes of the Church.