Resignation

[aspawloski4th]

I would also question if a person with this condition should ever be placed in a leadership position within the Church, especially in youth ministry.

I also have to state, if I have not said it yet in this thread, that we are only getting one side of the story of being “abused” or “bullied” by individuals in the parish.

If the main issue is that the parish does not feel that this person should be involved in the youth ministry program then I do not see that as bullying or abuse at all but a prudent move by the parish.

Personally between you and me, I’d whole heartedly trust you not to favor or commit vionce against someone like me or Maria. On the other hand I do know quite a few people, some whoem I’m very related to that would listen to the part where you disagree with Maria and I and use that to justify violence twards us. Im experiencing it personally right now in my own family, with some people I might add who are never violent at any other time. at some point those on your side are going to have to agree to disagree and let us live or there will be laws passed forcing people to let us live.

 

[aspawloski4th]

I assume you mean “ignore” which I do not. While the Church says it is “OK” in some cases it still says that they are not eligible for ordination or religious life and their sex/gender is not to be changed on baptismal records, so while the “sex-change” procedure may be “OK” it does nothing to actually change the sex/gender in the eyes of the Church.

Spelling have never been my strongsuit. I don know a person, and she is a memeber of these furums who had a sex change way way back when, who baptismal circificate was changed at order of Pope Paul the 6th.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Personally between you and me, I’d whole heartedly trust you not to favor or commit vionce against someone like me or Maria. On the other hand I do know quite a few people, some whoem I’m very related to that would listen to the part where you disagree with Maria and I and use that to justify violence twards us. Im experiencing it personally right now in my own family, with some people I might add who are never violent at any other time. at some point those on your side are going to have to agree to disagree and let us live or there will be laws passed forcing people to let us live.

That is why I would only make these comments here. I would not publicly, that is in a Church setting, say what I am saying. I would keep these things private between us.

There are “jerks” (for lack of a better word and also not to break forum rules) that will use any excuse for violence against those they have “issues” with.

I know you struggle and I pray for you and I do wnat to let you live as you want to live but you must understand that you can not force that upon me or anyone else. You can not demand to be placed in positions of leadership within the Church when the way you chose to live goes against what the Church Teaches and something that can cause scandal. I want you to live as you want to live but you must also let me live as I want to live as long as there is no violence to you.

It is a two way street.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Spelling have never been my strongsuit. I don know a person, and she is a memeber of these furums who had a sex change way way back when, who baptismal circificate was changed at order of Pope Paul the 6th.

While this may have happened, the Church has clearly stated that this is not to be the case any longer.

 

[aspawloski4th]

While this may have happened, the Church has clearly stated that this is not to be the case any longer.

Well they were correct then, and fallen into incorrectness now. Remember that was a Pope who approved of that.

 

[kage_ar]

Well they were correct then, and fallen into incorrectness now. Remember that was a Pope who approved of that.

Not everything a Pope does is infallible. Popes can make a bad decision.

Popes can make mistakes.

Regardless, it is hearsay without the evidence being posted.

 

[aspawloski4th]

Not everything a Pope does is infallible. Popes can make a bad decision.

Popes can make mistakes.

Regardless, it is hearsay without the evidence being posted.

You say that because you disagree with it. Grow up!

 

[kage_ar]

You say that because you disagree with it. Grow up!

Can you proved this event ever happened? If you do not have documentation then it is nothing but a rumour.

Mature debate stands on verifiable evidence.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Well they were correct then, and fallen into incorrectness now. Remember that was a Pope who approved of that.

Not everything a Pope does is infallible. Popes can make a bad decision.

Popes can make mistakes.

Regardless, it is hearsay without the evidence being posted.

And not only that, no pope can bind another pope in matters of discipline.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

You say that because you disagree with it. Grow up!

One could reply the same way to you.

Can you proved this event ever happened? If you do not have documentation then it is nothing but a rumour.

Mature debate stands on verifiable evidence.

Yes, proof please.

Otherwise this is nothing more than hearsay and is not evidence of anything, except maybe wishful thinking.

 

[sidbrown]

And not only that, no pope can bind another pope in matters of discipline.

But take the disicpline of marriage annulments. Could a future Pope, being unbound by the present discipline and rules, overturn all of the US marriage annulments which had been granted on grounds not accepted before 1950?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But take the disicpline of marriage annulments. Could a future Pope, being unbound by the present discipline and rules, overturn all of the US marriage annulments which had been granted on grounds not accepted before 1950?

I am not going to answer this as this is comparing apples to oranges.

For your question to be relevant it would have to be can a future pope say that the Church will no longer grant annulments and the answer to that would be yes.

 

[sidbrown]

I am not going to answer this as this is comparing apples to oranges.

For your question to be relevant it would have to be can a future pope say that the Church will no longer grant annulments and the answer to that would be yes.

But would he be bound by the discipline of the previous Pope and have to recognise all that had been granted before?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

But would he be bound by the discipline of the previous Pope and have to recognise all that had been granted before?

Again, apples and oranges, this has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

If you want to discuss this I suggest you start a new thread in the Liturgy and Sacraments sub-forum.

 

[sidbrown]

Again, apples and oranges, this has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

If you want to discuss this I suggest you start a new thread in the Liturgy and Sacraments sub-forum.

This has nothing to do with apples or with oranges, it has to do with a question which you yourself raised as to whether or not a Pope is bound in disciplinary matters by a previous Pope. This was something that you brought up on this thread. If the question concerns apples and oranges, then why did you bring it up?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

This has nothing to do with apples or with oranges, it has to do with a question which you yourself raised as to whether or not a Pope is bound in disciplinary matters by a previous Pope. This was something that you brought up on this thread. If the question concerns apples and oranges, then why did you bring it up?

A pope is not bound by discipline of a previous pope.

What you are trying to bring up is not discipline but actual decided cases.

For this to be a like case the Church would have to say not only that gender is not to be changed on baptismal certificates but that all those in the past that had been changed (if there are any) then they must be changed back.

This is not what I said or the Church said, hence the apples and oranges of your question.

 

[MariaTS]

I would also question if a person with this condition should ever be placed in a leadership position within the Church, especially in youth ministry.

I also have to state, if I have not said it yet in this thread, that we are only getting one side of the story of being “abused” or “bullied” by individuals in the parish.

If the main issue is that the parish does not feel that this person should be involved in the youth ministry program then I do not see that as bullying or abuse at all but a prudent move by the parish.

I am not saying that this person does not have a place in the parish and Church. I am not saying that they should be abused because of their condition. I am saying that what they perceive as abuse may not be such though.

Rapes? Beatings? Threats? By grown men? I’m just a defenseless severely physically disabled girl* and they feel that they need to gather together to hurt me when I cannot even fight back. You cannot in any way claim that this is just a perception of abuse or not really abuse. It was not people just believing I should not be a Youth Minister, it was people believing I don’t have a right to live and believing me to be a threat to children. The only emotional or social problems are caused by how cruel people act towards me. None of my Medical Conditions in any way make me incapable or disqualify me of serving as a Youth Minister.

*By girl I mean any female or transgendered female who is under the age of 25.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Rapes? Beatings? Threats? By grown men? I’m just a defenseless severely physically disabled girl* and they feel that they need to gather together to hurt me when I cannot even fight back. You cannot in any way claim that this is just a perception of abuse or not really abuse. It was not people just believing I should not be a Youth Minister, it was people believing I don’t have a right to live and believing me to be a threat to children. The only emotional or social problems are caused by how cruel people act towards me. None of my Medical Conditions in any way make me incapable or disqualify me of serving as a Youth Minister.

*By girl I mean any female or transgendered female who is under the age of 25.

I am sorry for what you have gone though but you have to admit that this is an anonymous forum and there is no way to verify any thing that is said here.

I pray for you and what you have gone though is wrong, but it is a fact that all we have is your word on this.

I am sorry if this hurts you but it is a fact that any one can come to an anonymous internet forum and make whatever claim they want to make.

What makes you incapable of serving as a Youth Minister is your lifestyle. I am sorry if you disagree with that but that is the way I feel and I believe that the Church backs that up in its Teachings.

 

[MariaTS]

I am sorry for what you have gone though but you have to admit that this is an anonymous forum and there is no way to verify any thing that is said here.

I pray for you and what you have gone though is wrong, but it is a fact that all we have is your word on this.

I am sorry if this hurts you but it is a fact that any one can come to an anonymous internet forum and make whatever claim they want to make.

What makes you incapable of serving as a Youth Minister is your lifestyle. I am sorry if you disagree with that but that is the way I feel and I believe that the Church backs that up in its Teachings.

There is no Church document that claims or states that a Severely Physically Disabled and Transgendered Girl cannot serve as a Youth Minister. Also, you know absolutely nothing about how I live my life so do not lay claim to what you believe my lifestyle to be unless you are willing to state what you claim about my lifestyle. Also, as I have not undergone Sex Reassignment Surgery and never will, my being Transgendered does in any way affect my ability to serve as a Youth Minister.

 

[aspawloski4th]

A pope is not bound by discipline of a previous pope.

What you are trying to bring up is not discipline but actual decided cases.

For this to be a like case the Church would have to say not only that gender is not to be changed on baptismal certificates but that all those in the past that had been changed (if there are any) then they must be changed back.

This is not what I said or the Church said, hence the apples and oranges of your question.

Official church teaching also is the treaching of one pope is as good as another. Pope Paul the 6th’s action with my friend is done and a closed matter. It can’t be changed.