Resolution of an 18-year-old Catholic/Orthodox conflict?

[Peter_J]

Deo gratias!

18-years’ Interconfessional Conflict in Lviv Region To Be Settled

Stryi—On 16 June 2008, a cross is to be consecrated in the village of Verkhnia Stynava in the Stryi district on the construction site a future UGCC church. Some see this as a step towards settling inter-confessional misunderstandings that have lasted for the past eighteen years; the logical extension of Greek Catholics defending their right to pray in a church to which they were denied access by the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church community. So reported zaxid.net.

According to the coadjutor of the Stryi Eparchy, Fr. Taras Poshyvak, the construction of the church for the Greek Catholic community was discussed at the eparchial department of the Stryi Eparchy with representatives of the Stryi District Administration and the UGCC community of Verkhnia Stynava.

2008-06-12

12.06.2008, [11:10] // Inter-Christian relations // RISU.ORG.UA

full story:

byzcath.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2457&Itemid=49

 

[mardukm]

What is the official EO response to these actions? Was this an action instigated by the EO hierarchy, or was it more of a grass roots action.

I don’t see how one can defend such unChristian attitudes from the Ukranian Orthodox.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Peter_J]

I figure this is similar enough to not warrant a new thread. From ByzCath:

**Ukrainian Orthodox, Catholics reach accord on churches in Poland **

2008-06-28

Warsaw, Jun. 26, 2008 (CWNews.com) - Ukrainian Orthodox leaders in Poland have reached an agreement with the Eastern-rite Ukrainian Catholic Church on the ownership of 20 churches that were seized from the Byzantine Catholics by the former Communist government and handed over to Orthodox control.

Several of the churches will reportedly be restored to the Ukrainian Catholic community. One building will be shared by the two religious communities.

The Polish government has agreed to help finance the construction of new church buildings to replace those that will not be restored to the former Catholic owners, and those that will be ceded by the Orthodox to their former owners.

 

[Hesychios]

Deo gratias!
full story:

18-years’ Interconfessional Conflict in Lviv Region To Be Settled

This is interesting on more than one level.

The dispute is not with the UO-MP, it is with a separate group, one of those which have been enjoying warm relations with Lubomyr Cardinal Husar, and which he has been hoping to forge a new Ukrainian church in communion with both the EP and Rome.

There is always the question of who owns a building, of course, when the community has not changed but it’s affiliation has. It is quite possible that these “majority” Orthodox are the same families who built the structure. It could be their own ancestors in the churchyard.

This does not always come out in the story. I am not saying I know more about this case than you or anyone else here, but the possibility is there for sure.

One can take this argument back all the way to the establishment of the Greek Catholic union with Rome. The Orthodox built all those monasteries and parish temples, but when the families and landowners became Catholics, so did the property. Their own ancestors were buried in the churchyards and they were baptized right there, the legal argument that they were properties built by Orthodox would not have carried any weight.

Now if a majority of the village or town…the community, in other words…have changed confession do they inherit the use or do they not? It reads to me like these Ukrainian Orthodox derive from the Greek Catholic community of this locale.

These are precisely the issues that have been heard in the courts of Ukraine, it is easy to write an inflammatory piece on a subject like this but the details are usually more complex than we will get from a short news item.

Michael

 

[Hesychios]

I figure this is similar enough to not warrant a new thread. From ByzCath:

**Ukrainian Orthodox, Catholics reach accord on churches in Poland **

2008-06-28

Warsaw, Jun. 26, 2008 (CWNews.com) - Ukrainian Orthodox leaders in Poland have reached an agreement with the Eastern-rite Ukrainian Catholic Church on the ownership of 20 churches that were seized from the Byzantine Catholics by the former Communist government and handed over to Orthodox control.

Several of the churches will reportedly be restored to the Ukrainian Catholic community. One building will be shared by the two religious communities.

The Polish government has agreed to help finance the construction of new church buildings to replace those that will not be restored to the former Catholic owners, and those that will be ceded by the Orthodox to their former owners.

This is even more interesting than the first post.

I had no idea that there were Ukrainian Orthodox in Poland.

There is a Polish Orthodox church in Poland, and it is believed to have about one million members. Until now I have never seen a reference to a Ukrainian Orthodox church in the canonical territory of Poland.

I think the author of this article is completely ignorant of the fact that there is a Polish Orthodox church, and simply assumed that if the Byzantine Catholics of Poland are in the UGCC, the Byzantine Orthodox must be in some sort of Ukrainian Orthodox affiliation. It looks like shoddy reporting.

Another thing I would like to point out is that the government of Poland expelled Byzantine Rite Catholics and Orthodox alike. The exodus was by accounts quite massive. It was ethnic cleansing. Some of the Lemkos are returning to their home region in the south, and they are divided between Greek Catholic and Orthodox, so if they are reestablishing themselves decisions do have to be made as to what kind of parish will be opened, and where. Not surprising that the Polish government is involved, it is culpable.

If the properties actually were seized from Greek Catholic communities in the late 1940’s or early 1950’s, they would probably have been handed over to the Orthodox no earlier than the 1990’s, probably after returning Lemkos filed lawsuits against the government and the RCC.

Most of those seized parish structures are occupied by neither the Byzantine Catholics nor the Orthodox, they are now more likely Roman Catholic parishes than anything else, although some are not used as temples at all, or collapse from neglect.

One important issue (to me anyway) is the case of the famous cathedral of Chelm. It is today occupied by Roman Catholics, and the UGCC is trying to get it back. Historically both the Orthodox and the Byzantine Catholics have a stronger claim to the structure than the Latin Catholics do. This kind of thing does not get reported in the Catholic press.

View attachment 3432




http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceball.gif

 

[Peter_J]

Another thing I would like to point out is that the government of Poland expelled Byzantine Rite Catholics and Orthodox alike. The exodus was by accounts quite massive. It was ethnic cleansing.

When was this?

 

[Hesychios]

When was this?

After World War II.

There were large exchanges of populations, and Byzantine Rite Christians were removed and sent east to Ukraine and Belarus in most cases, although I read that some were spread around into the areas formerly belonging to pre-war Germany.

The vacated church structures were reassigned to the remaining or newly introduced Latin Catholic population.

Michael

 

[Peter_J]

These are precisely the issues that have been heard in the courts of Ukraine, it is easy to write an inflammatory piece on a subject like this but the details are usually more complex than we will get from a short news item.

Michael

I agree: these things are pretty messy, with each side having various legitimate grievances against the other.

 

[Ignatius]

I figure this is similar enough to not warrant a new thread. From ByzCath:

**Ukrainian Orthodox, Catholics reach accord on churches in Poland **

2008-06-28

Warsaw, Jun. 26, 2008 (CWNews.com) - Ukrainian Orthodox leaders in Poland have reached an agreement with the Eastern-rite Ukrainian Catholic Church on the ownership of 20 churches that were seized from the Byzantine Catholics by the former Communist government and handed over to Orthodox control.

Several of the churches will reportedly be restored to the Ukrainian Catholic community. One building will be shared by the two religious communities.

The Polish government has agreed to help finance the construction of new church buildings to replace those that will not be restored to the former Catholic owners, and those that will be ceded by the Orthodox to their former owners.

Praise God. It is wonderful to see our Churches working in Christian Charity toward resolving this.

 

[Freshman88]

Another thing I would like to point out is that the government of Poland expelled Byzantine Rite Catholics and Orthodox alike. The exodus was by accounts quite massive. It was ethnic cleansing. Some of the Lemkos are returning to their home region in the south, and they are divided between Greek Catholic and Orthodox, so if they are reestablishing themselves decisions do have to be made as to what kind of parish will be opened, and where. Not surprising that the Polish government is involved, it is culpable.

After WWII, yet the modern non-communist government is responsible … makes sense. Tell me, can we pin the crimes of the communists on the Russians government of today too?

Having Lemko family, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority are indeed Orthodox who are in communion with Rome. Also, given the heavey persecution of Eastern Catholics, how many have been falsely told that they are Orthodox outside of Rome when indeed they are Orthodox in communion with Rome.

 

[Hesychios]

After WWII, yet the modern non-communist government is responsible … makes sense. Tell me, can we pin the crimes of the communists on the Russians government of today too?

Having Lemko family, I can tell you that the overwhelming majority are indeed Orthodox who are in communion with Rome. Also, given the heavey persecution of Eastern Catholics, how many have been falsely told that they are Orthodox outside of Rome when indeed they are Orthodox in communion with Rome.

I hope your inflammation subsides soon.

Prayers,
Michael

 

[Freshman88]

I hope your inflammation subsides soon.

Prayers,
Michael

My inflammation was aggreviated by ideas common to certain groups. You seem to espousing these ideas on more than one thread.

For instance, how could you possibly pin the crimes of the puppet soviet government of communist Poland, on the Polish government of today? That makes no sense.

Also, Lemkos have been deep in Polish/Austrian controlled areas for centuries, how could they possibly have a significant non-Catholic presence amongst themselves?

 

[Hesychios]

My inflammation was aggreviated by ideas common to certain groups. You seem to espousing these ideas on more than one thread.

For instance, how could you possibly pin the crimes of the puppet soviet government of communist Poland, on the Polish government of today? That makes no sense.

Also, Lemkos have been deep in Polish/Austrian controlled areas for centuries, how could they possibly have a significant non-Catholic presence amongst themselves?

I can see you are on fire.

That’s OK.

I don’t make this stuff up I just report it. We both know that by law all the Rusyns had (at one time) been required to conform to the state approved church, which under the Poles and Austrians was Catholic. But times have indeed changed and during the twentieth century there was a movement of at least some into Holy Orthodoxy, as incredible as that may seem to you.

I don’t know what percentage of Lemkos and Bojkos are Orthodox today, I wouldn’t be able to guess. There is also a Lemko Orthodox saint martyr, one of the earlier Byzantine Catholics to return to Orthodoxy on that side of the Atlantic, Father Maxim of blessed memory. The movement actually began in North America and back spread to Europe. These Lemko Orthodox are actually an element of the Polish Orthodox church.

I am not going to debate you about the exchange of populations and the removals. I suggest that anyone curious can find this information out for themselves. For your information the government of Poland today is the same one that was established after World War II. It’s economic policies may have changed but there has been no revolution since then. It’s the same government.

BTW, I think the church architecture of the region is wonderful, even in it’s rustic simplicity. I don’t know how many are familiar with this site, but it’s interesting. Those old temples are real architectural treasures.

*Michael

*http://www.rusyn.org/images/architecture04.jpg

 

[Hesychios]

A touching side story of the continuing resolution to this tragic series of events. A bit dated now, being 2001.

 

[Peter_J]

My inflammation was aggreviated by ideas common to certain groups. You seem to espousing these ideas on more than one thread.

For instance, how could you possibly pin the crimes of the puppet soviet government of communist Poland, on the Polish government of today? That makes no sense.

Also, Lemkos have been deep in Polish/Austrian controlled areas for centuries, how could they possibly have a significant non-Catholic presence amongst themselves?

You’re angered (aggreviated) by the idea of a non-Catholic presence in Polish/Austria controlled areas?

 

[Freshman88]

You’re angered (aggreviated) by the idea of a non-Catholic presence in Polish/Austria controlled areas?

How did you reach that conclusion? But certainly as a Catholic, you should hope for the conversion of all the Orthodox who remain outside of Rome, into the true Orthodox faith?

 

[Freshman88]

From where I’m standing, the Holy Orthodox faith is in communion with Rome. [in response to your inflammatory remark that these Catholics were converting to “Holy Orthodoxy”]

I am not going to debate you about the exchange of populations and the removals. I suggest that anyone curious can find this information out for themselves.

And what about the hundreads of thousands of Poles who were forced to live in Kazakhstan and Siberia? Clearly the Poles were in charge…

For your information the government of Poland today is the same one that was established after World War II. It’s economic policies may have changed but there has been no revolution since then. It’s the same government.

Oh please, the absence of a full blown revolution (while completely excusing the Solidarity movement) means that the Poles of today are responsible for the traitors who occupied the soviet puppet regime?Just exactly what kind of government executes and imprisons returning officers?

BTW, I think the church architecture of the region is wonderful, even in it’s rustic simplicity. I don’t know how many are familiar with this site, but it’s interesting. Those old temples are real architectural treasures.

I agree, my Lemko Grandfather attended such a Church in his youth. I don’t think that it is much of a stretch to imagine that my ancestors played a role in their construction. I hope to visit them in the not too distant future.

 

[Hesychios]

From where I’m standing, the Holy Orthodox faith is in communion with Rome. [in response to your inflammatory remark that these Catholics were converting to “Holy Orthodoxy”]

Actually, if they already believe what Holy Orthodoxy teaches and already reject what Holy Orthodoxy does not teach, they are not converting, they are just coming home.

And what about the hundreads of thousands of Poles who were forced to live in Kazakhstan and Siberia? Clearly the Poles were in charge…

What does any of this have to do with the discussion at hand? We are talking about Poland because that was what the original news item was about. We are discussing the background of that news item. Are you trying to imply that the Polish government is not culpable for it’s decisions? That is not what the high court of Poland seems to be saying, if you read that last link I provided.

At least they are not skirting their own responsibility. What is it to you or me?

I think you need to take a chill pill. :juggle:

Here, have one of mine…

http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/littlecross.gif

 

[Freshman88]

Actually, if they already believe what Holy Orthodoxy teaches and already reject what Holy Orthodoxy does not teach, they are not converting, they are jus
t coming home.

Sigh, two can play this game…

If by “coming home” you mean “becoming a schismatic”, then yes, you are correct.

What does any of this have to do with the discussion at hand?

Simply follow the thread.

We are talking about Poland because that was what the original news item was about. We are discussing the background of that news item. Are you trying to imply that the Polish government is not culpable for it’s decisions? That is not what the high court of Poland seems to be saying, if you read that last link I provided.

At least they are not skirting their own responsibility. What is it to you or me?

I am not disagreeing that Lemko’s should have their property returned, I am afterall of Lemko/Bojko stock. What I was arguing was this cannot be considered to be the action of Poles, any more so than the crimes of Stalinist Russia can be said to be Russian crimes. These crimes were not commited by Poland anymore so than they were by Russia and were instead commited by a communist puppet regime. It is indeed quite noble of Poland to right the wrongs of its former oppressor. By virtue of authority it is indeed their responsibly to right this wrong, but contemporary Poland is not culpable for its former oppressor’s crimes.

As for the mass movement of peoples… these were the actions of communists. As I had pointed out, the Poles themselves were being mistreated as ethnicty because of the greater plans of Stalinist Russia. This is why I bring up the forced migration of hundreads of thousands of Poles… if the Poles bear the responsibility then why did these same forced migrations oppress the Poles themselves? Clearly these actions were not motivated by Polish nationalism, identy or anything like that but rather they were being carried out by a communist regime that had the ultimate goal of making a one class system. Many ethnicites were targeted for eventual assimilation, but this was motivated by Marxism.

What does it matter to me? Simply, to set the record straight.

I think you need to take a chill pill. :juggle:

Here, have one of mine…

http://www.byzantines.net/epiphany/images/littlecross.gif

I’m simply making an argument.

 

[Hesychios]

If by “coming home” you mean “becoming a schismatic”, then yes, you are correct.

We are all schismatics. The term is meaningless.

Blah blah… Many ethnicites were targeted for eventual assimilation, but this was motivated by Marxism.

If you read the link I posted above, from a Lemko site, it makes it clear that the removal of Lemkos was an attempt to undercut the local Ukrainian Insurgent Army operating in the area.

Assimilation may have been a secondary goal, many eventually became Latin Catholics. Are you a Latin Catholic BTW?..Just wondering.

What does it matter to me? Simply, to set the record straight.

I’m simply making an argument.

I have seen you “set the record straight” elsewhere around here.

You seem to be pretty smart.