Resolution On Being Faithful Muslims and Loyal Americans

[Peace_of_cake]

Very illuminating, what you just said. Only quote sources to you that agree with your religious/political viewpoint. Gotcha.

This is indeed a fallacious argument if I’ve put that forward. However I do not hold this religio political position, so that might rain on your parade.
Robert Spencer is not an expert. It doesn’t help he’s fascist, but in the grand scheme of things it’s immaterial. Simple few questions: which university does he have a seat? How many peer reviewed academic papers has he written? None? Or it zero?
Also he doesn’t make any references to what might be called scholarly works in his books (the couple I’ve read), so this suggests he doesn’t know them. Even look at this approved quote’s imotive language. Come on he’s obviously a charlatan! Do you honestly not see it? If we are talking about critical scholars of Islam - and there are a few - then let’s engage with it, not drivel printed to make a buck and spread an agenda

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Jew-hatred is growing in a vicious circle at an exponential rate across all of the Muslim world, with the exception of some Sufis and the Ahmadis - one heterodox, the latter apostate, in the eyes of Muslims.

It’s true the anti-Semitic card is a rubbishy defence. I used it to just make people think a bit.
I think we should be clear that Zionism is a fascist political movement that wants one thing: all Palestinians out (Muslim Christian no matter). Norman Finkelstein has some awesome books exposing this group.
You’re right about the elders of Zion
It’s pretty fair to say that the anti-Jewish feeling is the result of the Israel-Palestine conflict and Arab nationalist movements. Neither of which are religious let alone anything to do with Islam
Yep there are some things in Islam that are not so courteous to Judaism or the Jews. Of course we have too and generally our track record is worse. So I don’t think we should be pointing to Muslim anti-Jewish feeling because we’ll be putting ourselves up for some trick questions.
Again heterodox Sufis? Let’s be more specific, who do you mean? What was you’re background in Islam, how would you have defined yourself. Let’s leave the Ahmadiyyah for they are of little consequence outside of Qadian

 

[Peace_of_cake]

KathleenGee:

When the activists deny any rights to Christian, but sue us to get their rights, that is poor citizenship that is building more alarms and division than any good towards integration.

there are no places in the UK where non Muslims can’t go, where on earth did you hear this?
Sounds like you’ve had a nasty experience, sorry to hear that. Some people are easier to love than others huh?
It’s all a bit complex, but religio-political movements are on the rise in all faiths. Certainly this is on the rise in the ‘Muslim’ lands. Noah Feldmen pointed out that we should let Islamicised democracy happen because it’s the only thing that will be successful and because the Shariah is a nomocracy or built on the rule of law, which ultimately is what we’re looking for. From there we may go to Western norms or have novel Islamic alternatives - and why not? - but not in conflict with the West

 

[KathleenGee]

www.technorati.com/politics/article/no-go-zones-for-non-Muslims/

I read another referencing some places in Scandinavia…and one town where Jews were moving out.

I heard of some comments several years ago by Americans living in Dearborn, Michigan and reporting on the behavior of immigrant Muslims there…it is very poor of people to immigrate here and do such things without giving people the impression they do want to form their own areas of the country.

I also read an encouraging article by a Muslim imam in Great Britain taking to task these Muslims who immigrate and then act this way. I don’t think societies should tolerate such behaviors. It doesn’t show good faith in the country they are moving to.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

This is indeed a fallacious argument if I’ve put that forward. However I do not hold this religio political position, so that might rain on your parade.
Robert Spencer is not an expert. It doesn’t help he’s fascist, but in the grand scheme of things it’s immaterial. Simple few questions: which university does he have a seat? How many peer reviewed academic papers has he written? None? Or it zero?
Also he doesn’t make any references to what might be called scholarly works in his books (the couple I’ve read), so this suggests he doesn’t know them. Even look at this approved quote’s imotive language. Come on he’s obviously a charlatan! Do you honestly not see it? If we are talking about critical scholars of Islam - and there are a few - then let’s engage with it, not drivel printed to make a buck and spread an agenda

Why don’t you go to JihadWatch, his website, and go to the “About” link, whoch goes through his background? Or even his wikipedia page, whch also has background information?
Of course, IF you choose to do that. And BTW------------so Spencer and all ZIonists are “fascists?”
Sheesh, I guess I am one too, then.

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Why don’t you go to JihadWatch, his website, and go to the “About” link, whoch goes through his background? Or even his wikipedia page, whch also has background information?
Of course, IF you choose to do that. And BTW------------so Spencer and all ZIonists are “fascists?”
Sheesh, I guess I am one too, then.

Yep been there. He has an MA, which I’m aware of and that’s it academically. There’s no doubt he’s prolific and making a lot of money from his books, but… My point still holds he’s a charlatan!
Zionism is a movement based on fascist ideas and Spencer supports far right (not centre right) political figures. My dear friend, it does look like you’re edging that way.

 

[Contarini]

I don’t mean to interject my two cents in this very interesting discussion, but just because Robert Spencer leans “right” (and is a fellow Melkite Catholic, as a matter of fact), that in of itself does not invalidate the fact that he is one of the top experts on the religion of Islam in the world.

Certainly. The problem with your claim is that he isn’t generally recognized as such by people with undisputed academic credentials. That doesn’t mean that he doesn’t have valid things to say–I’ve seen him on TV and been rather put off by him, and I think he often gets cited to support anti-Islamic bigotry, but I rather liked his Q and A here. I would certainly not dismiss something just because he said it, but given his strong ideological agenda and his lack of formal academic credentials (as he candidly admits, his M.A. did not focus on Islam), I prefer to find additional support when he is cited as the sole or primary authority for something. I don’t think he’s dishonest, and I appreciate his admission that not all Muslims are extremists.

Apparently an expert is not an “expert” if they happen to disagree with your idea of what Islam is.

No, the shoe is on the other foot. Apparently to you someone is an “expert” if he says the kinds of things about Islam of which you approve.

By that standard, the great Bernard Lewis is worthless since he is a westerner who is NOT (gasp!) Muslim and he is not afraid to talk about certain things that Islam is.

Very illuminating, what you just said. Only quote sources to you that agree with your religious/political viewpoint. Gotcha.

You’re describing your own apparent position here. Of course Lewis is a genuine scholar. No one disputes that, even people who disagree with him.

Spencer certainly has done a lot of study of Islam and has written much on the subject. But I question by what standard he can be said to be “one of the top experts.”

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

What about these Muslims…the ones that are now getting ready to file a lawsuit against Catholic University for refusing them to form a Muslim group, and not providing them prayer rooms without a crucifix of Jesus looking at them, or paintings, or pictures of the pope, of priests and theologians…

You don’t give a link. I’m very surprised that CUA wouldn’t allow this. But if there is such a lawsuit, I agree that this is unjustified. CUA has every right not to allow a Muslim group to be formed. I would hope that they would allow it, but they shouldn’t be coerced into doing so.

What are they trying to pull? Would they allow Catholic students the same rights in their places of origin???

Well, to answer that question one would need to know those particular Muslims, wouldn’t one?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Of course there is a modern ‘political movement’ of Islam, where politics is the aim, but islam is used as a rallying cry.

I think that’s too simplistic. You’re speaking as if politics and Islam are somehow separate. I don’t think politics and any religion are entirely separate or ever have been or can be or should be, but Islam is certainly historically one of the most politicized religions. The modern radical political movements within Islam certainly aren’t the same thing as traditional Islam (as Khalid has recognized), and ironically stem from “modernist” reform movements in many cases, but I would not say that they are thereby not sincere in their religious commitments. (There are secular militant political movements in the Muslim world, such as the PLO or the “Ba’ath” parties of Syria and [until 2003] Iraq. There’s a pretty clear difference between such groups and religious militants.)

However like Catholics they don’t often know all that much about their religion and so use it to suit them,

And as with Catholicism, it’s fatally easy to say that people whose views you don’t like are ignorant, instead of admitting that they represent a different interpretation.

I have maintained this point against the anti-Muslims, and I’ll maintain it against the pro-Muslims. [Refraining himself from starting to beat a drum and chant, “the Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs!”]

Traditional Sunni and Shia Islam has been sidelined and political movements has filled the void, they may be fascist, socialist etc in nature not ‘Islamic.’ Muslims who are serious about their religion hate these religio-political movements just as much as we do, perhaps more so

I think that’s a mistaken way to put it. Note that Hudson didn’t say that–he made the valid point that the conflicts between Islamic countries/movements and the West are political. I question the claim that they are thereby non-religious, but I think it is important to understand these conflicts in light of other conflicts following from the collapse of colonialism. The rise of radical Islam certainly has a lot to do with responses to European colonialism. (And that is not to deny the long history of Islamic imperialism!)

It just won’t do to label only Muslims we like as “serious about their religion,” any more than to label only Muslims who fit our stereotypes as “serious about their religion.”

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

It’s true the anti-Semitic card is a rubbishy defence. I used it to just make people think a bit.

Well, I think that was a mistaken tactic. Using loaded terms like that rarely makes people think.

I think we should be clear that Zionism is a fascist political movement that wants one thing: all Palestinians out (Muslim Christian no matter).

I think you’re defining Zionism in a rather tendentious manner. Zionism holds simply that Jews should create a homeland in the land once inhabited by their ancestors. Certainly the more strongly one holds Zionist views, the more likely one is to be callous toward the claims of other inhabitants of the land. But I think you’re oversimplifying and that your use of “fascist” muddies the waters.

It’s pretty fair to say that the anti-Jewish feeling is the result of the Israel-Palestine conflict and Arab nationalist movements.

I’m not sure that it is. I think there’s a good deal of evidence of earlier hostility to Jews among Muslims.

Again heterodox Sufis?

I agree with you here. I still haven’t heard Rashid’s response to my point that the translator of the text he himself cited as a standard work of orthodox Islam appears to be a Sufi! (I don’t mean that as a personal criticism of Rashid–a lot of folks have been saying a lot of stuff, and I haven’t responded to everything he has said either.)

Edwin

 

[KathleenGee]

Here’s the link …www.nation.foxnews.com/war-religion/2011/10/27/muslims-say-crosses-catholic-university-violate-human-rights

What people like me are addressing are these classes of Muslims who do these things to Christians and other people…here or elsewhere. They are now found on just about every American campus since 9/11, and I do not believe that this just happened.

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Appreciate your posts
Just to clarify, any reference to islam or Muslims is to traditional Sunni Islam unless otherwise stated

You’re speaking as if politics and Islam are somehow separate.

Not sure what you mean by it being a politicised religion really. The more I study Islamic history and political theory the more I’m not to sure about saying not separate. It’s much more like papal revolution of high medieval period. Muslims will say there’s no clergy in Islam yet their ulama formed separate organisations from the government. Also Shariah has a lot of flexibility in politics.

And as with Catholicism, it’s fatally easy to say that people whose views you don’t like are ignorant, instead of admitting that they represent a different interpretation.

with my definition then that is my reference point ie that which is and is not traditional Sunni Islam

I have maintained this point against the anti-Muslims, and I’ll maintain it against the pro-Muslims. [Refraining himself from starting to beat a drum and chant, “the Dwarfs are for the Dwarfs!”]

always appreciate fairness

I think that’s a mistaken way to put it. Note that Hudson didn’t say that–he made the valid point that the conflicts between Islamic countries/movements and the West are political. I question the claim that they are thereby non-religious, but I think it is important to understand these conflicts in light of other conflicts following from the collapse of colonialism. The rise of radical Islam certainly has a lot to do with responses to European colonialism. (And that is not to deny the long history of Islamic imperialism!)

if you read the whole chapter then actually he does - I was paraphrasing really.
Basically these modern political groups could continue without islam and vice versa. They are separate entities. If Nationalism gives rise to anti Jewish feeling and Muslims reject such ideas since they are alien then it seems odd to blame islam for this feeling. Not saying you are per se, but just think the anti Islam sentiments stated by some is like saying Catholic is synonymous with British.
We have a political theory, it’s just redundant but we still have one. We have maybe a more flexible model, but I think that’s debatable IMO.

 

[PbloPicasso]

One of the most eye-popping and astounding couple of posts I’ve read on the forums. Thank you for your frank, candid, and excellent rebuttals.

I found him first.

Yes. I agree. but I’ve known this all along, having studying Islam just enough to have my eyes opened from a geographic point of view, which instilled an interest in the culture, customs of the people as well as their religious teachings/beliefs [which diverge into knowledgeable to cafeteria style practice as we see in the Catholic and Protestant worlds].

 

[PbloPicasso]

Edwin, you do a great job of expressing your thoughts clearly ond concisely. Makes me jealous!

I personally find Jack Chick unconvincing because what he describes as catholicism is ignorant of what is ACTUALLY taught by catholicism. Catholics have no trouble recognizing the caricature and laugh him off as they should.

What I find objectionable about Islam is based largely on some problems in the supposedly perfect example Muhammad gave. I’M not making up the assertion that Islam holds up Muhammad this way, that’s what I have learned about Islamic teaching from muslims. It’s not a lie or a slander to allege that Muhammad killed people (and ordered more) for the offense of being ‘unbelievers,’ it’s an example plain as day in the Koran. While catholics surely have too in history, JESUS didn’t. And Jesus is the basis of our faith, not popes or doctors of the church. There are no apalling examples of behavior in His life that hamstring christianity. As developments in Libya right now show, Muhammad’s example of polygamy being virtuous is a fixed feature of Islam. How do you hope for reform in such a context? I think that’s been Khalid’s point and it sounds like the crisis of recognition that sparked his conversion to Christ.

You bring up some great points. There’s another saying “the writing is on the wall” and “the proof is in the putting”. The etymology of the latter saying is interesting.] The same group, for example, that try to convince the world that homosexuality is not hurting society are the same people that are pushing this naive believe about other agenda driven issues. People, often called “liberal” erroneously in my opinion, are selling out their own beliefs, traditions, etc. It reminds me of the story of Esau and Jacob. Esau sold his birth right for a bowl of stew. We’ve become pretty lame in our convictions. No one wants to stand up for what they believe anymore. This is partly what drew me to my previous Protestant faith - hellfire and brimstones preaching. Fortunately, that turned out to not be the will of God. Some things can not be compromised no matter what. The sooner we realize this fact the sooner we’ll start taking our society back and restoring it to a healthier community.

 

[PbloPicasso]

Khalid reminds me of his articulation of the topics like that of Mr. Qureshi of the Acts 17. A convert from Islam, now a Christian, but a very good debater.

I wish to know if Khalid doesn’t mind to relate to us how and why he became a Catholic. I really like how this guy talk. Nice to know you Khalid.

Khalid

I believe we need priests like Khalid. He’s expressed a desire to become a priest. His background and knowledge crossing Orthodox Christianity, Islam and Catholicism are in high demand. It’s nice to see someone speaking truth as clear as possible..

 

[Peace_of_cake]

www.technorati.com/politics/article/no-go-zones-for-non-Muslims/

I read another referencing some places in Scandinavia…and one town where Jews were moving out.

I heard of some comments several years ago by Americans living in Dearborn, Michigan and reporting on the behavior of immigrant Muslims there…it is very poor of people to immigrate here and do such things without giving people the impression they do want to form their own areas of the country.

I also read an encouraging article by a Muslim imam in Great Britain taking to task these Muslims who immigrate and then act this way. I don’t think societies should tolerate such behaviors. It doesn’t show good faith in the country they are moving to.

Read the link… TOTAL fabrication!!!
Best to be very critical of websites. Id leave FOX and Rupert Murdoch’s media empire well alone. The worlds best news companies are Reuters and the BBC, try sticking to them only. Though with all honesty I think ‘the news’ is pretty worthless for most things

 

[KathleenGee]

Well…it came out a year ago or so that Reuters created more explosions in a picture in Palestine that actually was on behalf of the Palestinians.

I am a member of the Hebrew Catholic Assn…and they have made it very clear where they are within Judaism and where others are…the Zionists are essentially atheistic. I have clients within the Jewish community, and have worked with Reformed, Orthodox, and Humanist. The Humanists do not believe in God because of all the wars created, and they have no intent of moving to Israel.

So Peace of Cake…what is your association? We had a Britisher on awhile back who was a convert to Islam, and was able to build some bridges…but then alot of bias came out.

I must say I was very traumatized by 9/11…living so far away from it. I have a great aversion to violence of all sorts. I worked in the missions in Africa in a country that went Marxist…saw it coming, saw alot of devastation coming out of it. I left because of the anti-American propaganda that came out the first day of the country’s new independence. And as I referred to earlier, it is this very noticeable presence of Muslims entering in full garb. I know some Muslims from Bosnia and they say those are political. I tend to agree. Like alot of other people, we began to study Islam, and what I saw was ongoing war, skirmishes, and the inability to get along with other people.

I have reflected on getting to know them who were put in rental homes put up by the government, about a mile from my home. But because of my gender, it is pretty difficult. A full garb woman rear ended my car from behind. I had to follow her home to get her information. Her husband came out, and he looked and acted like the president of Iran towards me, and insulted me. I was just going out to mail some Christmas cards with my son, and put on a sweatshirt…they checked out my chest to see how modest I was … They told the insurance people, nothing was done to my car. She hit me so hard her license plate was indented…and the body shop was going to call the police on them. There have been other things…but this pushy, superior attitude…not good.

So I would define those Muslims that are political and have other motives…and we have alot here now. The FBI stated about 80% of the claims made by immigrant Muslims that they experienced bias, etc, turned out false. And the people who have the power to place people, opening the doors, etc., are not the ones living with all their own decrees. That is one of the issues of why the Tea Party was formed…because ordinary people are having to live among people who do not treat them well or care about the good of our country, just exploit it.

 

[Peace_of_cake]

Well…it came out a year ago or so that Reuters created more explosions in a picture in Palestine that actually was on behalf of the Palestinians

I would find this very hard to believe given the stringency they test stories before they publish. Of course only God is perfect. Where did you hear this.
Zionism is definitely atheist and many Orthodox Jews would consider it blasphemous, a perverse reworking of one element of their tradition. Interestingly the most vigorous criticism of Israel comes from Israel.
I’m British or more specifically English
I’m sorry to hear about your experience. Some people are just ignorant and selfish. Generally some of the things you suggest are the social problems of immigration and not really just a Muslim one. We have a lot of Poles here which is not going down too well. Of course if you go to the South of Spain you realise that Brits can be just as obnoxious and ignorant of local customs as anyone.

 

[KathleenGee]

About the doctoring of the photo…it was during that time rockets were being sent over into Israel, and then Israel fighting back…a year or two ago?..I could do a search.

When working overseas, coming home the newspaper that spoke most objectively and morally about the Marxist African country I served was the Wall Street Journal.

Yes, immigrants can have their issues integrating here…a Romanian American contractor was telling us they fled their country avoiding machine gun fire when it was communist.

Coming to America was likewise difficult and his mother’s hair turned white.

But he is very patriotic and can’t believe how passive Americans are in defending our way of life. Try to and you are labelled and sued. Or want to run for office with your Christian background, and you are immediately made into scandal and possibly sued.

I do pick up on various new Muslims checking out the women here with contempt. My daughter had a close friend from Catholic high school, a Jordanian Muslim, whose father is a diplomat. We loved her; she wouldn’t eat pork…sophisticated, well mannered.

But one day the girls went to a restaurant. A young teen came up to serve them…her friend said to him, ‘I am Mesopotamian’, and he ran off; he was Jewish. My daughter learned Arab cuss words from her brothers. She said there was some big Arab student assembly one night, hearing alot of applauding and shouting. The next day she was walking across campus, and she heard some Arab boys staring at her and referring to her using bad names; my daughter was virgin before Christian marriage.

What I am referring to when I speak in these ways are those kinds of Muslims, who again, came here after 9/11. And with the ill will, it makes me wonder what their true intent is.

Years ago I worked with a fellow who did English language teaching, ESL, to Saudi students. He never got into any details but simply referred to the differing cultural diversity issues working with them. Very different culture.

Likewise, I do pray for a movement for women in our country to come to know the Blessed Virgin and to restore chastity as a value to treasure.

 

[Peace_of_cake]

About the doctoring of the photo…it was during that time rockets were being sent over into Israel, and then Israel fighting back…a year or two ago?..I could do a search.

Please do… Just it sounds like Israeli propaganda
Met a Aussie nurse who had travelled the world. When she worked in Qatar she got in some bother because she kept looking people in the eye when speaking to them. Fairly normal behaviour in Oz, but in Qatar (if a woman looks a man in the eye) it means I want to sleep with you. Cultural norms vary.
Sometimes it can be a problem if people don’t realise respective cultural norms. Sometimes western women are confused when they go to certain areas. To the locals they’re dressed like prostitutes and are acting in a lewd manner. Yet the westerner feels it is normal.
Anyway the point I’m making is just that sometimes we get affronted by something someone else does because we have totally different stand points.
I heard in a lecture at Cambridge that around 1 to 2% of marriages in the UK are between people who are virgins and interestingly the vast majority of them are Muslim. We certainly both believe in chastity and modesty