Resolving an intersex condition
- Thread starter HomeschoolDad
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I said earlier that if genetics (DNA/chromosomes) say one thing, but the person’s physical and psychological makeup say another, it seems reasonable to me that physical/psychological makeup trumps genetics. This would be the case with women who have AIS (male genes but female physical and psychological traits due to the androgen never having “kicked in”, with female being the “default gender” — in other words, you turn out female unless something “makes you male”). Put another way, they are females with male genes. Unless it were discovered medically, they would just assume they are sterile women who don’t have periods.
The other question is whether an intersex person could consummate marriage, either as a male or a female. Without getting crude, it would depend on “what they have”. Some might be able to, and others might not. Sometimes this can be resolved by surgery. I would think that to a large extent, they could “become” whatever gender they “feel more like”. Or they might be content to leave it alone and be what they are. They might have to remain celibate, for there can be no licit sexual activity unless it can be consummated in the normal male-female fashion in the act that is both ordered towards and open to procreation (even though procreation cannot happen, just as procreation cannot happen if one or both partners are sterile).
I am not even going to get into the question of where you draw the line and say what is heterosexual and what is homosexual about such a relationship. It would vary with every case (though I have to think a relationship between a normal male and an AIS female would be heterosexual — what else could it be?) and there might not be a clear-cut answer. I am no expert in these things, I am only a reasonably well-educated and somewhat articulate layman, with (I hope) a little bit of common sense.
I am also not going to get into transgender situations, where someone has the normal physical and genetic makeup of one gender, but “feels like” they are another. I have to think that must be treated as a psychological problem, and that “feels like” can never be a pretext either for surgery, medical intervention (hormones, etc.), or giving a blessing to homosexual activity. But there could be more to it than that. I don’t know.
I will welcome any points of view that might fill in something I’m not considering.
This is an excellent discussion, and I think a very productive one.
The other question is whether an intersex person could consummate marriage, either as a male or a female. Without getting crude, it would depend on “what they have”. Some might be able to, and others might not. Sometimes this can be resolved by surgery. I would think that to a large extent, they could “become” whatever gender they “feel more like”. Or they might be content to leave it alone and be what they are. They might have to remain celibate, for there can be no licit sexual activity unless it can be consummated in the normal male-female fashion in the act that is both ordered towards and open to procreation (even though procreation cannot happen, just as procreation cannot happen if one or both partners are sterile).
I am not even going to get into the question of where you draw the line and say what is heterosexual and what is homosexual about such a relationship. It would vary with every case (though I have to think a relationship between a normal male and an AIS female would be heterosexual — what else could it be?) and there might not be a clear-cut answer. I am no expert in these things, I am only a reasonably well-educated and somewhat articulate layman, with (I hope) a little bit of common sense.
I am also not going to get into transgender situations, where someone has the normal physical and genetic makeup of one gender, but “feels like” they are another. I have to think that must be treated as a psychological problem, and that “feels like” can never be a pretext either for surgery, medical intervention (hormones, etc.), or giving a blessing to homosexual activity. But there could be more to it than that. I don’t know.
I will welcome any points of view that might fill in something I’m not considering.
This is an excellent discussion, and I think a very productive one.
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Rau
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The “blueprint” does not attempt to encompass all diversity. The idea becomes rather meaningless if it did. But equally, to depart from the Blueprint is not to depart from humanity.
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Rau
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We hope / anticipate our children will conform with a certain blue print, Eg. One head, two arms, etc. Evidently male or female. Attracted to the opposite sex. We would be justified in trying to understand departures from these characteristics with a view to discovering whether there are avoidable causes (though to suggest this usually brings condemnation from some!). The human family is of course broader than that described in the blueprint, and no shame or loss of dignity attaches to such departure.
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BlueMaxx
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Serious question…why is there such an obsession here at CAF on this same topic?
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I’m not quite sure I understand this phrase — was “sin this same topic” a typo or a false autocorrect?
I can’t speak for anyone else on CAF, but here is why it is of interest to me:
- I have compassion for people who are not physically or genetically binary. I have known people who may have been either AIS women or intersex, as the case may be. For instance, when an attractive woman never marries and has no interest in dating or relationships, I have to wonder “is there something wrong with her that she can’t have a relationship with a man?”. If that were the case, that would be pretty bad, especially if she can’t have a relationship and longs for one, fearing she would be rejected if her deformity (or whatever) became known to a partner.
- I realize that some non-binary people might be tempted to engage in illicit relations (i.e., sexual expression other than normal male-female relations), and I think someone needs to raise consciousness that such people may be called to celibacy, rather than illicit sexual expression if that is all they are physically capable of.
- I’d like to see as many as possible, in non-binary situations, be helped in some way — hormone therapy and surgery might be an option for some, and others might need help accepting themselves the way they are and living a holy Catholic life, even if that has to mean celibacy.
- I’d also like to see the stigma of non-binary, intersex, and so on, be removed, and see society — from schools onward — “matured” or “evolved” enough to accept non-binary people for what they are. In other words, it should never have to be a secret, and even when it is, people shouldn’t have to feel bad or ashamed about having that secret. Not all non-binary situations are visually obvious in a casual setting. It should never be something to be bullied or to be made fun of, and there should never be any type of discrimination.
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Thorolfr
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You say, “We hope…” and “We would be justified…,” but I’m not sure that all parents would be as concerned as some others if they had a gay child, especially since there is much less stigma attached to being gay than what there once was. And having a gender non-conforming child is also less problematic for many parents nowadays. I also don’t think that these situations are quite the same as having an obvious deformity such as having a missing leg or a missing arm which would be more of a handicap.HomeschoolDad:
We hope / anticipate our children will conform with a certain blue print, Eg. One head, two arms, etc. Evidently male or female. Attracted to the opposite sex. We would be justified in trying to understand departures from these characteristics with a view to discovering whether there are avoidable causes (though to suggest this usually brings condemnation from some!). The human family is of course broader than that described in the blueprint, and no shame or loss of dignity attaches to such departure.
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Rau
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I’m sure there are exceptions Thor.
Yet all are departures from the blueprint. The scale of disadvantage of, say, having “one arm” vs. “exclusively same sex attraction” is a matter for individuals.
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Thorolfr
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Considering that about 79% of the world’s population has brown eyes whereas only about 8-10% has blue eyes, 5% has hazel eyes and 2% has green eyes, would having blue, hazel or green eyes be “departures from the blueprint”? And blue, hazel and green eyes are caused by genetic mutations which has resulted in some people not having the usual brown eyes. The blue eye mutation is estimated to have occurred about 10,000 years ago. And, of course, I suppose that we can say that there’s no shame or loss of dignity attached to having blue, hazel or green eyes even though they’re not part of the blueprint.Thorolfr:
Yet all are departures from the blueprint. The scale of disadvantage of, say, having “one arm” vs. “exclusively same sex attraction” is a matter for individuals.
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Rau
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No. While the first blue-eyed boy may have surprised mum, I assume he had 2 baby blues and they functioned as eyes should?
Mutations are commonplace. Pigmentations vary and yes, theory has it that blue eyes are of more recent origin.
Certainly - why would you imagine otherwise?
But they are. They reflect rather ordinary variations in our modern day selves. Can you see how they are different from, say, being born without any of our 5 senses; or being born incapable of sexual intercourse, etc.
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0Scarlett_nidiyilii
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BlueMaxx
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Yes, a typo…it was suppose to be on this topic, of which if a thread search is done shows a multitude of threads.BlueMaxx:
I’m not quite sure I understand this phrase — was “sin this same topic” a typo or a false autocorrect?
I can’t speak for anyone else on CAF, but here is why it is of interest to me:
- I have compassion for people who are not physically or genetically binary. I have known people who may have been either AIS women or intersex, as the case may be. For instance, when an attractive woman never marries and has no interest in dating or relationships, I have to wonder “is there something wrong with her that she can’t have a relationship with a man?”. If that were the case, that would be pretty bad, especially if she can’t have a relationship and longs for one, fearing she would be rejected if her deformity (or whatever) became known to a partner.
- I realize that some non-binary people might be tempted to engage in illicit relations (i.e., sexual expression other than normal male-female relations), and I think someone needs to raise consciousness that such people may be called to celibacy, rather than illicit sexual expression if that is all they are physically capable of.
- I’d like to see as many as possible, in non-binary situations, be helped in some way — hormone therapy and surgery might be an option for some, and others might need help accepting themselves the way they are and living a holy Catholic life, even if that has to mean celibacy.
- I’d also like to see the stigma of non-binary, intersex, and so on, be removed, and see society — from schools onward — “matured” or “evolved” enough to accept non-binary people for what they are. In other words, it should never have to be a secret, and even when it is, people shouldn’t have to feel bad or ashamed about having that secret. Not all non-binary situations are visually obvious in a casual setting. It should never be something to be bullied or to be made fun of, and there should never be any type of discrimination.
My own take is some folks use it as a “gotcha” argument…that God can make a mistake.
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OraLabora
Guest
From the article:
Honestly the article strikes me as theological mumbo-jumbo that has little grounding in the lived experiences of intersex individuals. HE will not have to spend the rest of his life in the wrong identity,
Is he suggesting that AIS women ignore their “confounding physiological factors” that make them phenotypically female, and embrace their "masculinity?
Honestly the article strikes me as theological mumbo-jumbo that has little grounding in the lived experiences of intersex individuals. HE will not have to spend the rest of his life in the wrong identity,
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Rau
Guest
Not my preferred choice of words, but I too thought it had little or nothing to say on the subject.
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