Resources for dealing with JWs

[Tarsier]

I was being cheeky.

“here’s one I prepared earlier” is something people say in cooking shows when they appear with a fully cooked meal a moment after they put it in the oven.

It looks like you had the list ready and waiting.

My apologies if I was too facetious.

Ah, my apologies, then. Been spending the day with family, so I’m fried and a little dense!

 

[Logically]

Ah, my apologies, then. Been spending the day with family, so I’m fried and a little dense!

No worries friend!
I’m off now - so any further replies I’ll look at another time.
Thanks for your comments!

 

[Tarsier]

Well that is a shame.

I think it has a bearing on this discussion - because if JW’s are preaching “God’s Kingdom is almost here!” - and it actually is almost here… then picking at their false alarms is unfair.

Jesus said “keep on the watch.”

If you hired a security guard and told him to “keep on the watch” and he went out to check a suspicious noise or light that turned out to be a false alarm - would you fire him?

You don’t have to be a JW these days to think the world is ending.

Gotcha. I see where you’re going with this. Knowing the world is coming to an end is different from p(name removed by moderator)ointing a certain date and declaring certainty about it.

Anyway, I think the comparison falls flat for a couple of reasons. The WT declares with certainty some very specific dates. To use your security guard analogy, this would be like the guard hearing a suspicious noise and then declare that it is “certain” that there is a burglar outside. And he calls in the police for backup and wakes me up in the middle of the night. And it’s a cat.

And he does this two or four more times. All after putting on his resume that he is a an authority on the matter (a.k.a. “a prophet”)

I’d be like, “Dude, I appreciate that you’re on edge and trying to look after the place, but a suspicious noise does not for certain a burglar make.”

Anyway, the very specific declaration of a year (in several instances) by WT, seems to run contrary to Mark 13:33.

 

[dallas_r]

Thanks, I do give props to JWs for all of the time they spend bible studying, I wish more Catholics would go a tad deeper in the faith. I remember I was talking to a brother at KH before and he said half of the people in the congregation were once Catholic. The problem with us Catholics is that a lot of members of the Church do not no scripture and defend themselves against common protestant attacks. This is sort of like how you said only the “wishy-washy” JWs are easy to convert. I don’t really feel like debating, so I think it would be nice to observe the thing that bring us together as Christians, which is Jesus. I was just watching a documentary on Travel Channel called Expedition Unknown (I highly recommend it). It was about this guy who traveled everywhere and did a lot of research about the true cross of Christ, very neat journey. A group of researchers were examining all of the possible crosses and they concluded that the straight pole or torture stake. They concluded that on top of other evidence, it would not be able to hold Christ up for the 3 hours he was left hanging because there would only be two holes supporting his entire body weight, essentially ripping his hands and feet off in about an hour and a half. They said the X cross or the T cross would be more likely because weight was more evenly distributed. But it is more important to focus on why Christ died for us.

 

[Logically]

I’d be like, “Dude, I appreciate that you’re on edge and trying to look after the place, but a suspicious noise does not for certain a burglar make

And he might reply: “come on mate, that was 45 years ago and I explained my mistake at the time. Let it go!”

Then he might point out all the other applicants for watchman are asleep or watching the football, and haven’t even noticed the suspicious people and vehicles that have been gathering at the gates for the last few hours.

Ha ha. Analogies are fun. Enjoy your day!

 

[Logically]

But it is more important to focus on why Christ died for us.

Amen to that!

 

[jas84173]

I usually just say the Prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel outloud when they have tried talking to me.

One I am asking for protection.
Two they get confused and it isn’t in their missionary training of learned responses to be able to comprehend why I am praying to St.Michael who is Jesus to them.

 

[Tarsier]

I usually just say the Prayer to Saint Michael the Archangel outloud when they have tried talking to me.

One I am asking for protection.

Two they get confused and it isn’t in their missionary training of learned responses to be able to comprehend why I am praying to St.Michael who is Jesus to them.

Do you really do this? Unless I’m misunderstanding the context, I’m having trouble seeing how seeds would be planted with this approach, as opposed to the missionaries just leaving with the impression that you were incredibly rude and even deeper in error than they suspected.

 

[Tarsier]

But it is more important to focus on why Christ died for us.

Amen to that!

From WatchTower: By Jesus’ sacrificial death, God opened the way to endless life in Paradise on earth.

And apparently that approach puts us right back into a disagreement on doctrine and authority …

 

[Tarsier]

And he might reply: “come on mate, that was 45 years ago and I explained my mistake at the time. Let it go!”

Then he might point out all the other applicants for watchman are asleep or watching the football, and haven’t even noticed the suspicious people and vehicles that have been gathering at the gates for the last few hours.

Well, 45 years ago for the latest in the series … until the next one. However, I’d like to see the explanation. Honestly, I don’t know that I’ve run across it and I couldn’t find anything at the WatchTower site. Could you link?

The explanation is more important to me than the 45-year timespan. After all, it only takes one false prophecy (regardless of how long ago it was) to prove a prophet as false, just as it only takes one failure in the charism of infallibility to disprove the Catholic Church’s claim on that end. Even if that lapse was 1,000 years ago, it still invalidates the claim, right?

Your second point is worth discussing. We should open a thread for that. If my own institution is asleep at the wheel, I’d want to flesh that point out and consider the implications of it.

 

[jas84173]

Yah I do it. I have absolutely no desire to talk with any of the groups I mentioned. JW’s, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists are all incredible heresies that stemmed out of the second great awakening in the United States when the Millerite movement anticipated the second coming. It came to pass and these groups basically are off shoots to it. Always talking about the end times. They don’t come from God they come from religious fanaticism by people who really were quite disillusion. Especially Joseph Smith and Ellen G White. Charles Taze Russell who founded the JW wasn’t so bad but his successor , Rutherford was a quack that changed the original beliefs completely.

 

[Tarsier]

Yah I do it. I have absolutely no desire to talk with any of the groups I mentioned. JW’s, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists are all incredible heresies that stemmed out of the second great awakening in the United States when the Millerite movement anticipated the second coming. It came to pass and these groups basically are off shoots to it. Always talking about the end times. They don’t come from God they come from religious fanaticism by people who really were quite disillusion. Especially Joseph Smith and Ellen G White. Charles Taze Russell who founded the JW wasn’t so bad but his successor , Rutherford was a quack that changed the original beliefs completely.

I understand, but when one encounters members of a group that has strayed, shouldn’t the goal be to “make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you” and to “do it with gentleness and reverence.”

I just don’t understand how that happens when you are cutting them off to say a prayer that creates a situation that, as you mentioned, will only confuse them.

To flip the situation, if I were reaching out to a Muslim and, right in the middle of my comments, he cut me off by reciting a Muslim prayer, I doubt I’d walk away thinking, “You know, I really oughtta check Islam out a bit closer.” I’d probably be more convinced than I was already that he didn’t logically have a leg to stand on, so he just wanted to be a pest.

 

[omgriley]

Positive evangelization is not the only effective means of cracking a JW. Sometimes a JW won’t even consider what you have to say because, as you’ve pointed out, they’re trained to ignore your points. Sometimes the first step in the process is to show that the JW is a ridiculous religion which falls apart under the lightest of criticism.

Do it charitably, of course. But pointing out all the flaws of their religion is a good way to start.

Btw, are you currently a member of the JWs?

 

[Tarsier]

Btw, are you currently a member of the JWs?

I think he is, and I give him major props. I haven’t met too many JWs who are interested in dialogue that is anything close to balanced or weighted against them. Logically has a lot of spunk in him.

 

[omgriley]

That’s probably because nearly all dialogue is bound to be weighted against them. Their beliefs are totally unreasonable and just plain bizzare.

I mean no offense by that, but it’s the truth.

-Owen Riley

 

[Logically]

Sometimes a JW won’t even consider what you have to say because, as you’ve pointed out, they’re trained to ignore your points…

Btw, are you currently a member of the JWs?

Yes I am.
But I must have been away the day we got trained to ignore other people’s points.

 

[Logically]

After all, it only takes one false prophecy (regardless of how long ago it was) to prove a prophet as false, just as it only takes one failure in the charism of infallibility to disprove the Catholic Church’s claim on that end. Even if that lapse was 1,000 years ago, it still invalidates the claim, right?

We are not prophets. We just try to understand the prophets.

Has there ever been a failure in the charism of infallibility of the Catholic Church?
(I’m not totally sure what that means)

 

[Logically]

But pointing out all the flaws of their religion is a good way to start.

I think that is a last resort when you can’t present something superior.

 

[Logically]

Their beliefs are totally unreasonable and just plain bizzare.

Which ones?
Will they be unreasonable and bizarre if they are in the Bible.?

Give me three examples.

 

[Tarsier]

Has there ever been a failure in the charism of infallibility of the Catholic Church?

(I’m not totally sure what that means)

No. You can read more about it on catholic.com.

We are not prophets. We just try to understand the prophets.

I know you say this, and I suspect it is is the current talking point that JWs are trained to go with to combat all the “false prophet” claims. However, the WT magazine disagrees with you:

WT June 15, 64 “As Jehovah revealed his truths by means of the first century Christian congregation so he does today by means of the present-day Christian congregation. Through this agency he is having carried out prophesying. All of this activity is not an accident. Jehovah is the one behind all of it.”

Awake! 6/8/1986, p. 9 "God has on earth a people, all of whom are prophets, or witnesses for God … Jehovah’s Witnesses."

WT, April 1, 92 "This prophet was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. They are still proclaiming a warning, and have been joined assisted in their work by hundreds of thousands of persons who have listened top their message with belief.

WT 4/1/72 p. 197 Who is this prophet? … He had a prophet to warn them. This prophet was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as lnternational Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses …"

WT 07/15/60 p. 439 “The facts show that during this time and up to the present hour the “slave” class has served as God’s sole collective channel of communication from heaven to earth for the flow of Biblical truth to men on earth … Thus organizationally the “discreet slave” class since 1919 has been channeling an ever-increasing flow of Biblical publications by the millions that contain the “waters of life” featuring Jehovah’s will as emanating from God’s throne in heaven.”

WT 10/01/67 p. 590 "… Jehovah poured out his spirit upon them and assigned them the responsibility of serving as his sole visible channel, through whom alone spiritual instruction was to come. Those who recognize Jehovah’s visible theocratic organization, therefore, must recognize and accept this appointment of the “faithful and discreet slave” and be submissive to it.