Resources on Seventh-Day Adventism

[Maria1212]

1. It is not my “opinion”. I will not argue with Scripture:

Revelation 18:4
“And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

1. I have never said, nor have ever implied that the SDA church teaches anti-Catholic doctirne.

You might not be arguing with Scripture, but have you considered the possibility you are misinterpreting it?

No one ever said you, as an individual, stated the SDA Church teaches anti-Catholic doctrine. One look at SDA teachings, and it is clear it is anti-Catholic. Adventist teaching speaks for itself. It is anti-Catholic, and its doctrine based on being anti-Catholic.

As I have said before, this thread is for resources on Adventism. I will refrain from replying to debates on Adventism on this thread, and will respond on the link posted in previous posts, and linked below, started by St. Violet.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2238702#post2238702
Thank you.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[djconklin]

"K. It would have the mysterious number 666 (Revelation 13:18).
This verse says, “It is the number of a man,” and Revelation 15:2 says it is “the number of his name.” What man do you think of when you think of the papacy? Naturally, we all think of the pope. What is his official name? Here is a Catholic quote: "The title of the pope of Rome is “Vicarius Filii Dei” (English: “Vicar of the Son of God”).6 Malachi Martin, in The Keys of This Blood, uses the same title for the pope on pages 114, 122. A footnote for Revelation 13:18 in some Douay [Catholic] versions of the Bible says, “The numeral letters of his name shall make up this number.” Notice the chart at right, which shows what happens when we total up the Roman numeral value of the letters of the name.

Again, the papacy fits the identification point. The beast with the “mark” is the papacy. No other power in history could possibly fit these divine descriptive points. Now that we have positively identified the beast, we can discover her mark, or symbol of authority. But first, let’s look at God’s sign of authority."

So, here is proof. You miss the chart and the visuals of the seminar though. The website only has the chart, at the seminar, there was a slide of one of the papal tiaras.

The claim was that the SDA teach that the Pope’s mitre had the number 666 on it. and that “I have seen one of Doug Batchelor’s presentation that included this old, tired myth. Along with many others. He doesn’t seem to have a problem using false material if it will sway his listeners.” Thanks for providing the proof that he said no such thing!

ROFL! I just saw the 3rd (still haven’t seen the first 2!) post by Maria that we use this thread for only posting links and no propganda “interpretations.”

So, here’s two from me:

It is claimed that Ellen G. White plagiarized 80-90% of her material and that the church has been covering it up. Well, as usual, neither are true. See

1. dedication.www3.50megs.com/David/index.html
2. a podcast I did: sabbathpulpit.com/

 

[Maria1212]

ROFL! I just saw the 3rd (still haven’t seen the first 2!) post by Maria that we use this thread for only posting links and no propganda “interpretations.”

So, here’s two from me:

Again you misquote me. I said the purpose of this thread was to post resources, and to discuss whether the resources were accurate in their representation of Adventist doctrine.

Have you read through the recent posts? My requests were there.
Please take the time to read my posts more carefully. (#165, 169, 173).

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[djconklin]

Again you misquote me.

Ah dear, when was the first time?

And secondly, with my feeble memory I couldn’t remember anything other than “3rd time.”

I said the purpose of this thread was to post resources, and to discuss whether the resources were accurate in their representation of Adventist doctrine.

Excellant idea!

I just found out that as I’m making this post I can scroll down and see what the previous posts are–I"ll see how far back I can go.

Have you read through the recent posts? My requests were there.
Please take the time to read my posts more carefully. (#165, 169, 173).

Nope for several reasons.

When I get an email confirmation it takes me to a post (apparently the latetst?). Secondly, if your post got buried amongst the others I’ll miss it too–note that I don’t respond to all of the posts.

 

[MarysRoses]

The claim was that the SDA teach that the Pope’s mitre had the number 666 on it. and that “I have seen one of Doug Batchelor’s presentation that included this old, tired myth. Along with many others. He doesn’t seem to have a problem using false material if it will sway his listeners.” Thanks for providing the proof that he said no such thing!

Of course not! He just showed a picture of it, (although for clairity we are talking about the papal triple crown, not a fabric miter) while enumerating the letters of a papal “title” which is NOT the 'official name of the pope" as claimed, using highly questionable sources for his information.

Using Malachi Martin as a ‘catholic source’ is like Using Desmond Ford or Robert Brinsmead as an Adventist source. Sheesh.

 

[djconklin]

He just showed a picture of it …

Hmm, already off-topic. Don’t you people read what Maria asked?

BTW, while I’ve seen such a picture, I have have never seen Batchelor show a picture–if you have the link that shows it send it to me. 2nd BTW, do you know how old he is now? I was kind of shocked when I saw all the gray hair!

 

[adventistnomore]

Hmm, already off-topic. Don’t you people read what Maria asked?

BTW, while I’ve seen such a picture, I have have never seen Batchelor show a picture–if you have the link that shows it send it to me. 2nd BTW, do you know how old he is now? I was kind of shocked when I saw all the gray hair!

There is this old picture of a papal tiara that Review & Herald Publ. published in a book many decades ago as a drawing of what the tiara would have looked like. Many Adventists mistook it for an actual photo though, and that caused significant problems for the publishing company.

Maybe the pic Bachelor used is that one, or a similar one?

 

[djconklin]

There is this old picture of a papal tiara that Review & Herald Publ. published in a book many decades ago as a drawing of what the tiara would have looked like. {edited by DJC}

It was fairly recently that Dr. Bacchiocchi showed that the claim of such a tiara was false.

We should also ask where did the R&H get the pic from? Where did Doug Batchelor get his pic from? I suspect that these things have been recycled from a long time ago and not all from the SDA’s. There used to be a profound discrimination, and in some cases, riots against Catholics in this country.

 

[adventistnomore]

It was fairly recently that Dr. Bacchiocchi showed that the claim of such a tiara was false.

Apparently, you’ve never read Dr. Bacchiocchi’s research, which points out that Adventist scholars were urging the denomination to avoid the tiara claim (as false) almost a century ago (Everson, Prescott).

We should also ask where did the R&H get the pic from? Where did Doug Batchelor get his pic from? I suspect that these things have been recycled from a long time ago and not all from the SDA’s. There used to be a profound discrimination, and in some cases, riots against Catholics in this country.

My mistake… it was the Southern Publishing Association (which merged with R&H in 1980). Here’s the Bacchiocchi quote:One of the stunning pictures of the papal tiara sent by Everson to the General Conference [c. 1905?], was modified by an Adventist artist who added the words Vicarius Filii Dei to the picture. The Southern Publishing Association used this “doctored” picture of the tiara in the revised edition of Uriah Smith’s Daniel and the Revelation. When Prof. Prescott received the book and noted the plate with the fraudulent tiara, he immediately presented to the General Conference the incriminating evidence. The GC Committee took immediate action to stop the printing of the book until the manipulated picture was removed.

…

The investigation led LeRoy Froom to issue a strong warning in *Ministry *against the use of fraudulently inscribed tiaras in evangelistic meetings. He wrote: “In the name of truth and honesty this journal protests any such use by any member of the Ministerial Association of Seventh-day Adventist denomination (our worker body), of which The Ministry is the official organ. Truth does not need fabrication to aid or suppress it. Its very nature precludes any manipulation or duplicity. We cannot afford to be party to any fraud.” (The Ministry, November 1948, p. 35).

I haven’t seen the alleged Batchelor photo; all I had was speculation. But it might lie in this long tradition of doctored pictures of papal tiaras.

 

[djconklin]

Apparently, you’ve never read Dr. Bacchiocchi’s research, which points out that Adventist scholars were urging the denomination to avoid the tiara claim (as false) almost a century ago (Everson, Prescott).

I was not interested in the subject, so I didn’t read it. I just knew it was there.

I haven’t seen the alleged Batchelor photo; all I had was speculation.

I would suggest that it would be better not to speculate. That’s how we get some of the wild claims out there. Some of them have been repeated here–the book Great Controversy not being allowed into the Library of Congress was the latest.

 

[adventistnomore]

I was not interested in the subject, so I didn’t read it. I just knew it was there.

LOL, I know what you mean.

I would suggest that it would be better not to speculate. That’s how we get some of the wild claims out there. Some of them have been repeated here–the book Great Controversy not being allowed into the Library of Congress was the latest.

True.

 

[St_Violet]

1. It is not my “opinion”. I will not argue with Scripture:

Revelation 18:4
“And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

1. I have never said, nor have ever implied that the SDA church teaches anti-Catholic doctirne.

I will ask you this, what makes you soo sure this verse is talking about the Catholic Church?

Why do you and your Church continue to misuse revelations?

 

[St_Violet]

How do you get a “majority” when the study said that 70% opposed you?

one of the reasons why I am proud of the Catholic Church is that, the Catholic Church’s stances is not based on opinion but based on Truth. the opinions among catholics cannot effect the Stance of the Church.

it doesn’t matter how I feel about truth, doesn’t matter what my opinion is, Truth is Truth. and Truth is Final.

and when I said fellow catholics, I me the catholics that I know personally, and the catholics that disagree with the Pope aren’t practicing catholics/ christians anyway

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

Apparently (we have no written detailed records available to us) the churches in Rome and Alexandria started it because the Christian communities were being confused with the Jews (since they both kept the Sabbath) in about 135 A.D. when the Jews had launched another revolt against Rome.

Being a stubborn Irish-German I would have been willing to die for principle expecting the good Lord to work something out. If not, then like the three Hebrew worthies I still would not have bowed the knee.

There are two well-known quote from Socrates’ Ecclesiastical History. I am sure most Adventists and those who have come across what they teach are familiar with them.

The first quote:

"The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria." - Socrates, "Ecclesiastical History," Book 7, chap.19.

And this:

"For although almost all churches throughout The World celebrated the sacred mysteries (the Lord's Supper) on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, refuse to do this." - Socrates,

“Ecclestical History,” Book 5, chap. 22, p. 289.

This is used to pretend that all Christians, except those at Rome and Alexandria, kept the Sabbath.

But the context is conveniently left out.

The context of the latter passage is what follows.

And among various nations there are other usages, for which innumerable reasons are assigned. Since however no one can produce a written command as an authority, it is evident that the apostles left each one to his own free will in the matter, to the end that each might perform what is good not by constraint or necessity. Such is the difference in the churches on the subject of fasts. Nor is there less variation in regard to religious assemblies. For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this. The Egyptians in the neighborhood of Alexandria, and the inhabitants of Thebaïs, hold their religious assemblies on the sabbath, but do not participate of the mysteries in the manner usual among Christians in general: for after having eaten and satisfied themselves with food of all kinds, in the evening making their offerings they partake of the mysteries.

So the passage is NOT telling us that all the Christians, except those at Rome and Alexandria, kept the Sabbath. It is telling us that the Christians believed that they were free to follow Romans 14:5-6, and worship God in spirit, not bound to a specific day. They chose to continue a custom (even called a custom by Socrates - see the bold underlined section in the first quote above) that came from their Jewish roots.

You will find many references like this that are used by Adventists to make it seem as if early Christians observed the Sabbath because they believed it was binding on them. But context always proves the Adventist claims wrong. In every case, what is really happening is that Christians continued with customs they inherited from the Jews, but knowing that their only purpose was to give God glory, and they could do that with any day.

Also notable is the fact that the first passage tells us that almost all Christians assembled together on Saturdays AND Sundays. The exceptions were Rome and Alexandria, which used only Sunday. So practically ALL Christians kept Sunday, and most, but fewer, kept Saturday. Sunday was universal - the Sabbath wasn’t. That’s not something your Adventist teachers will usually point out. And they will never tell you that the same historian records that they continued with the Sabbath of their own free will, and not because of any written command or authority. That would just defeat the purpose of providing this reference in a selective quote.

Also worth noting is that even today, Saturday is treated differently in most Catholic and Orthodox Churches. When Sunday-keeping Christians treated Saturday differently out of pious custom in the early centuries, it is paraded around by Adventists as supposed evidence that they kept the Sabbath like Jews and Adventists do. Yet when Sunday-keeping Christians today do the same thing, it’s conveniently ignored.

Isn’t that somewhat hypocritical?

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

out of curiousity, is Dr. Bacchiocchi that same guy who disproved that the Waldens kept the sabbath?

Here’s the core bit:

A second example of existing inaccuracies in the Great Controversy, is the reference to the observance of the Sabbath by the Waldenses. Ellen White wrote: “Through ages of darkness and apostasy there were Waldenses who denied the supremacy of Rome, who rejected image worship as idolatry, and who kept the true Sabbath. Under the fiercest tempests of oppositions they maintained their faith.” 32

This statement suggests that Sabbathkeeping was common among the Waldenses. Most likely Ellen White believed that only some of the Waldenses kept the Sabbath, because later she writes about them saying: "Some of whom [Waldenses] were observers of the Sabbath."33

Did some of the Waldenses observe the Sabbath? I spent several hours searching for an answer in the two scholarly volumes Storia dei Valdesi - (History of the Waldenses), authored by Amedeo Molnar and Augusto Hugon. These two books were published in 1974 by the Claudiana, which is the official Italian Waldensian publishing house. They are regarded as the most comprehensive history of the Waldenses. To my regret I found no allusion whatsoever to Sabbathkeeping among the Waldenses.

The same search for historical evidences of Sabbathkeeping among the Waldenses has been conducted by other Adventist scholars. What they have found in some documents are references to the insabbati, a common nickname for the Waldenses. In the past some uninformed readers have taken this term to mean that the Waldenses were Sabbathkeepers. It is possible that Ellen White was influenced by this old interpretation.

Unfortunately the term insabbati has no connection to Sabbathkeeping. As Adventist Church Historian, Daniel Augsburger explains in the symposium The Sabbath in Scripture and History, the Waldenses were often called insabbati, not because they kept the Sabbath, but because the wore sandals. “The Latin word for sandals is sabbatum, the root of the Spanish zapato and the French sabot. The sandals were an outward sign of their being imitators of the apostles in living the vita apostolica and the justification of their preaching the gospel.” 34 In other words, the Waldenses were often called insabbati - (sandal-wearers), because many of them wore sandals cut away at the top in their itinerant ministry of preaching the Gospel.

Another inaccurate statement about the Waldenses is found in The Great Controversy pages 65-66: "Behind the lofty bulwarks of the mountains . … the Waldenses found a hiding place. Here the light of truth was kept burning amid the darkness of the Middle Ages. Here for a thousand years, witnesses for the truth maintained the ancient faith."35

The problem with this statement is that the Waldensian movement was established by Peter Valdes in 1173. This means that the Waldenses did not exist for “a thousand years,” during “the darkness of the Middle Ages.” It is surprising that the editorial helpers did not catch this inaccuracy. It was simply a matter of checking the name “Waldenses” in a Dictionary of Church History.

Yes, he did - here: biblicalperspectives.com/endtimeissues/eti_87.html

See also:

Ellen White calls “Christian” what the Bible calls “AntiChrist”
Adventist Review’s indirect admission of Ellen White’s errors
Were the Albigensians Primitive “Protestants?”
Were the Waldenses Primitive “Protestants?”

 

[Stephen_Korsman]

1. It is not my “opinion”. I will not argue with Scripture:

It is your opinion, because it is your interpretation of what the Bible says, not what the Bible says in its own words.

Revelation 18:4
“And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

That passage refers to coming out of Babylon, not coming out of the Church. Regardless of which denomination you think is the true Church, the Church and the faithful cannot be separated:

Acts 9:4 KJV And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

Who did Saul/Paul persecute? Christ himself? Or individual members?

The Church is the Body of Christ, and we are that one Body.

Romans 12:5 KJV So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1 Corinthians 12:12 KJV For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:27 KJV Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

Perhaps you believe that the Catholic Church is Babylon, but we don’t, and therefore we don’t separate the Church from the faithful.

1. I have never said, nor have ever implied that the SDA church teaches anti-Catholic doctirne.

We only need to look at the multitude of anti-Catholic writings and preachings out there to know that it is anti-Catholic. Perhaps not anti-Catholic-people, but definitely anti-Catholic-Church and anti-Catholic-faith. It’s our faith, and an attack on it is an attack on us.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Any resources on the semi-arian SDA?

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin
How do you get a “majority” when the study said that 70% opposed you?

one of the reasons why I am proud of the Catholic Church is that, the Catholic Church’s stances is not based on opinion but based on Truth. the opinions among catholics cannot effect the Stance of the Church.

it doesn’t matter how I feel about truth, doesn’t matter what my opinion is, Truth is Truth. and Truth is Final.

and when I said fellow catholics, I me the catholics that I know personally, and the catholics that disagree with the Pope aren’t practicing catholics/ christians anyway

Nice dodge, dear! 70% of your fellow Catholics who say the same things above disagreed with you.

 

[djconklin]

Any resources on the semi-arian SDA?

I’ve never heard of any.

 

[djconklin]

Originally Posted by djconklin

1. It is not my “opinion”. I will not argue with Scripture:

Revelation 18:4
“And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.”

1. I have never said, nor have ever implied that the SDA church teaches anti-Catholic doctrine.

{spelling error fixed!}

I will ask you this, what makes you soo sure this verse is talking about the Catholic Church?

It seems that you are laboring under a mis-conception.

We don’t teach that this is talking about the Catholic church.

We don’t teach that anyone can be saved solely by being a member of a given denomination (there are some that do, but we don’t). I can clearly recall several pastors telling their congregations that there will be more Roman Catholics in heaven than Adventists (and it had nothing to do with the size difference that we have now).

Why do you and your Church continue to misuse revelations?

That assumes facts that aren’t in evidence. It is a common tactic called “poisoning the well” in attempt to dissuade others from believeing what others might say without providing any evidence that the other side is actually wrong.