Resources on Seventh-Day Adventism

[adventistnomore]

Yes, it is “interesting.” However, there are literally dozens of holes in this personal opinion theology and “private interpretation.”

Of course, because your interpretation of scripture isn’t also a private interpretation. Let me guess; you let the Bible interpret itself? Yep, just like my Calvinist uncle, Pentecostal grandmother, and Adventist friends.

 

[Protestant101]

Thanks for your helpful comments.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

Dale is more Catholic than anything else.

 

[Protestant101]

Of course, because your interpretation of scripture isn’t also a private interpretation. Let me guess; you let the Bible interpret itself? Yep, just like my Calvinist uncle, Pentecostal grandmother, and Adventist friends.

Your “he said” “she said” approach to my comments is excellent. It proves many personal conclusions I have reached.

But; of course, you don’t want to hear “personal conclusions.” :dancing:

 

[Maria1212]

Dale is more Catholic than anything else.

I am not sure what the point of your post was. You posted the above in response to my post thanking a different poster for their helpful comments. Could you clarify what you meant?

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Protestant101]

As much as I found Ratzlaff’s theology unsatisfying as an Adventist (and even as a Catholic), his influence should not be underestimated. I forget the statistics (and believe me, statistics constitute conservative estimates of the influence of his theology), but the the writings of this one man have led thousands out of Adventism over the past decade, and were partly responsible for the theological shift of the Worldwide Church of God, which lost 70,000 members in the process.

Dale does real miracles with “statistics.” :bowdown:

 

[Maria1212]

Dale does real miracles with “statistics.” :bowdown:

Perhaps God used him as a tool to bring others closer to God. Whether you agree with his writings or not, his efforts to bring others closer to God, and closer to the truth, is admirable. That is an example to us all, in my opinion.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

All,
Protestant101, if I have misrepresented the doctrine of soul sleep as taught by Adventists, please specifically tell me what I have stated regarding the belief that is not part of the Adventist Teaching. I will do my best to support what I have said from official sources, and if I cannot I will remove that section. Thanks!

Dear Protestant 101,

Did SDA2RC misrepresent the doctrine of soul sleep as taught by Adventists? If so, please respond to the above. If he did not misrepresent it, please acknowledge that as well. It is important for those not as familiar with this teaching.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Protestant101]

Perhaps God used him as a tool to bring others closer to God. Whether you agree with his writings or not, his efforts to bring others closer to God, and closer to the truth, is admirable. That is an example to us all, in my opinion.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

Well, all I can say is that you called this thread “resources on Seventh-day Adventism” but there is only anti-adventism links posted for the “resources.”

You should have called it “How To Respond To Adventist” or “How To Debate With Adventists” That’s what adventistnomore should have called his thread too. It certainly is not a “witness” to point people to “apologetics” which are designed to tear down, rather than provide “resources.”

Some of Ratzlaf’s stuff which you laud and accolade is actually not in the true spirit of Catholic or Adventist thinking. Christians from many walks recognize this guy for what he really is; and it is very questionable to place a link to his article about the covenants, for eg., and call it an “adventist resource” or a “resource about Adventists.”

If you wanted info about what Adventists believe; you would be going more to Adventists to investigate, instead of to such negative debaters as we are seeing in links here. The Covenants and The Law are not understood by Adventists, in quite the way such poison pen ministries would have you believe.

 

[Maria1212]

Well, all I can say is that you called this thread “resources on Seventh-day Adventism” but there is only anti-adventism links posted for the “resources.”

You should have called it “How To Respond To Adventist” or “How To Debate With Adventists” That’s what adventistnomore should have called his thread too. It certainly is not a “witness” to point people to “apologetics” which are designed to tear down, rather than provide “resources.”

Some of Ratzlaf’s stuff which you laud and accolade is actually not in the true spirit of Catholic or Adventist thinking. Christians from many walks recognize this guy for what he really is; and it is very questionable to place a link to his article about the covenants, for eg., and call it an “adventist resource” or a “resource about Adventists.”

If you wanted info about what Adventists believe; you would be going more to Adventists to investigate, instead of to such negative debaters as we are seeing in links here. The Covenants and The Law are not understood by Adventists, in quite the way such poison pen ministries would have you believe.

Dear Protestant 101,

The purpose of my thread was for the study of Adventism from a Catholic perspective. When I have posted a site where I was not certain about its credibitlity, I asked others for their opinion. I have also sited official Adventist websites when referring to Adventist teachings on other threads. Of course, the official Adventist website only offers one side of the picture. Resources posted on this thread provide an alternative perspective. I like to compare and constrast, and to challenge my assumptions. The resources posted on this thread help me do just that. At home, I have numerous resources from the Adventist perspective. But again, the purpose of this thread was to compile Adventist resources from a Catholic perspective. (This is the Catholic Answers Forum after all).

You have speculated about my intent, which is frankly, something you know nothing about. You are posting on a Catholic forum. If I wanted to to “witness” to Adventists, I would go to an Adventist forum. It the Holy Spirit, not me, that leads others to the truth. I try to be an example of Christ to others, but am the first to admit, that more often than not, I fail. Please pray for me that I will be a better example of Christ, and his love, to others.

The purpose of this thread was for myself, and other Catholics, to have a place to go to where we could post online resources all in one place. This thread meets that purpose. And, that, was my intent.

I look forward to reading your reply to my post earlier today, asking for a response on whether SDA2RC misrepresented the Adventist teaching on soul sleep. Are you avoiding the question?

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

For those who missed it, both sda2rc.blogspot.com/, sda2rc.com/, and diesdomini.com/ list a variety of Catholic and Adventist resources (from both perspectives).

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Protestant101]

You have speculated about my intent, which is frankly, something you know nothing about.

I look forward to reading your reply to my post earlier today, asking for a response on whether SDA2RC misrepresented the Adventist teaching on soul sleep. Are you avoiding the question?

Sincerely,

Maria1212

if you will go back and read my last post; I did try to word it so that I wasn’t questioning your integrity, or your personal motive. My intention was to make a general statement on the content of this thread; and to avoid examining your motive, so I apologize, if I did not come across like that to you.

When you stated “Are you avoiding the question;” I had to wonder though; are you questioning my motive here? I hope not. We should be past that stage by now. I have stated before what I thought of the post in question; and I am not yet sure of what to specifically answer at this point. I have also stated a number of times on this forum to similar accusations that my time is limited, I am a busy parent of two teens and if I do miss something; it is certainly not intentional. But I will miss things sometimes. Please don’t question my motives like this again. it really is unecessary; I have no reason to “avoid” any honest examination of Bible truth, either here, or anywhere else.

 

[Maria1212]

Here is another good article by Tim Staples.

catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0605btb.asp

The Sabbath: Saturday or Sunday

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[Maria1212]

This article can be useful when explaining to our Adventist friends why Catholics follow both written and oral teaachings of Christ and the apostles.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9306vbv.asp
*THE Bible makes it clear the apostles did not practice or teach sola scriptura. They taught that, in addition to Scripture, sacred Tradition (the oral transmission of the gospel) is authoritative and must be adhered to and be faithfully handed on to future generations. This scriptural teaching has been maintained by the Church.

“I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).

“I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus . . . took bread, and said, ‘This is my body that is for you. . . . This cup is the new covenant in my blood.’” (1 Cor. 11:23-25).

“Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours” (2 Thess. 2:15).

“We instruct you, brothers, in the name of [our] Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6).

“Take as your norm the sound words that you have heard from me, in the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. Guard this rich trust with the help of the Holy Spirit.” (2 Tim. 1:13-14).

“Be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will have the ability to teach others as well” (2 Tim. 2:2). *

Another useful article can be found here:
catholic.com/thisrock/1995/9505fea1.asp

 

[Maria1212]

From Sabbath to Sunday

How the Church Moved Its Holy Day

By James P. Guzek

catholic.com/thisrock/1999/9902fea1.asp

Here is another interesting article. While not related to Adventism directly, it reminds us that the Church has been attacked by those introducing false teachings from the very beginning.

catholic.com/library/great_heresies.asp

The Great Heresies

From Christianity’s beginnings, the Church has been attacked by those introducing false teachings, or heresies.

*The Bible warned us this would happen. Paul told his young protégé, Timothy, “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths” (2 Tim. 4:3–4). *
The rest of the article can be found here:
catholic.com/library/great_heresies.asp

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[djconklin]

I agree with Maria. I’ve read some SDA literature over the years, and it is virulently anti-catholic, more so than many other Protestant denominations. They call the Church the whore of babylon, the Pope the antichrist, etc. If

Try reading Steps to Christ or Desire of Ages – both are readily available online. Any alleged SDA literature that says what you said was not teaching what the church teaches. We never attack denomination or church. What we object to is particular teachings. That’s why we have pastors who will tell the congregation straight up that there are more Christians in other denominations than our own.

You have to be extremely wary of some anti-SDA websites for they will say things that are not so. There are also off-shoot groups that masquerade as SDA’s. I know of two web sites that have taken pages down when I have called them on their lies.

 

[djconklin]

Holy day … new moon … sabbaths. To say that the sabbaths and the holy days being discussed refer to the same set of festivals just doesn’t work - Paul mentioned three distinct observances. I doubt he forgot himself half way through the sentence and mentioned them again.

There were two ceremonial sabbaths that were NOT feast days so Paul did not “forget” what he was talking about. The “same” string of listing the ceremonial days of the year is used several times in the OT. For more details see: 666man.net/Colossians_2_16-17_By_David_Conklin/colintro.html

 

[Maria1212]

Try reading Steps to Christ or Desire of Ages – both are readily available online. Any alleged SDA literature that says what you said was not teaching what the church teaches. We never attack denomination or church. What we object to is particular teachings. That’s why we have pastors who will tell the congregation straight up that there are more Christians in other denominations than our own.

You have to be extremely wary of some anti-SDA websites for they will say things that are not so. There are also off-shoot groups that masquerade as SDA’s. I know of two web sites that have taken pages down when I have called them on their lies.

These are commonly held Adventists beliefs:
(a) the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon; (b) the pope is the Antichrist; (c) in the last days, Sunday worship will be “the mark of the beast”; (d) there is a future millennium in which the devil will roam the earth while Christians are with Christ in heaven; (e) the soul sleeps between death and resurrection; and (f) on the last day, after a limited period of punishment in hell, the wicked will be annihilated and cease to exist rather than be eternally damned.

I would say that a, b, and c are definitely anti-Catholic. By teaching the above, Adventists are attacking the Catholic Church.

D, E, and F are also unbiblical. But I recognize that discussion is best left to a different thread.

I do agree that each website needs to be assessed for credibility.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[djconklin]

pjpiisoe.org/pamphlets/038Ell…Plagiarism.pdf

Dr. Veltman (who recently passed away back in January) studied 15 chapters in one book (Desire of Ages). In one sense, his work is fundamentally flawed in that he started with an assumption of literary dependence. Secondly, as he notes in his study (Life of Christ Research Project at adventistarchives.org/documents.asp?CatID=18&SortBy=1&ShowDateOrder=True) is subjective in nature. That is, we are free to differ with his results. However, even with that in mind, while Rea claims that Ellen G. White plagiarized 80-90% Dr. Veltman’s study shows that Ellen G. White isn’t even literary dependent 80-90%! So far, I have studied 125 chapters in 4 books (2 completely) and have found that according to the alleged evidence against EGW she is accused of plagiarism even when she does give her sources, on one occassion her material has been inserted into her alleged source, she is alleged to have copied from a book that was published ab’t 15 years AFTER she wrote hers, etc… So far, I have only found one complete sentance that we can say with confidence it had to have been copied from a written document–what we can’t prove is where she got it from!

 

[Maria1212]

This sounds pretty anti-Catholic to me.

“Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots . . . is further declared to be ‘that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.’ Revelation 17:4–6, 18. The power that for so many centuries maintained despotic sway over the monarchs of Christendom is Rome. The purple and scarlet color, the gold and precious stones and pearls, vividly picture the magnificence and more than kingly pomp affected by the haughty see of Rome” **(The Great Controversy, 338). **
“It is one of the leading doctrines of Romanism that the pope is the visible head of the universal Church of Christ . . . and has been declared infallible. He demands the homage of all men. The same claim urged by Satan in the wilderness of temptation is still urged by him [Satan] through the Church of Rome, and vast numbers are ready to yield him homage” (ibid., 48).

“Marvelous in her shrewdness and cunning is the Roman Church. She can read what is to be. She bides her time, seeing that the Protestant churches are paying her homage in their acceptance of the false Sabbath. . . . And let it be remembered, it is the boast of Rome that she never changes. The principles of Gregory VII and Innocent III are still the principles of the Roman Catholic Church. And has she but the power, she would put them in practice with as much vigor now as in past centuries. . . . Rome is aiming to reestablish her power, to recover her lost supremacy” (ibid., 507–8).

“God’s word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures, in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be1 repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution” ( ibid., 508–9).

This is taken from
catholic.com/library/Seventh_Day_Adventism.asp

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[djconklin]

From the The Seventh-day Adventist Commentary vol 12, p. 506:

"Many commentators have suggested that the text refers to the “sabbaths” or holy days of the Mosaic “ceremonial law,” not to the weekly Sabbath.

Such commentators and interpreters, however, generally have not grappled with the fact that the references in Colossians 2:16 seems comparable to the repeated OT references to a trilogy in the pattern of annual-monthly-weekly observances (in that order or in the reverse)."

With all due respect to which ever scholars worked on it there is no evidence “pattern of annual-monthly-weekly observances.” It is our Greek way of thinking that is reading that in. The key to undertsanding this verse is to look up in the LXX every use of the Greek word “heorte.” You will find that it is never used in reference to two ceremonial sabbaths: the Day of Atonement and the feast of trumpets.