Responce to Protestant with this email:

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xukeith

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I need some good seeds to plant in my Calvinist friend’s email.
Here it is:
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, (Jude 24)

Covenant is an eternal binding promise made by God to believers that he will love us unconditionally. This eternal covenant is not a contract. In a contract, the relationship is based on performance, if the terms of the contract are broken, the relationship is terminated under penalty. In a covenant relationship, love is the basis of the relationship. If the covenant is broken, the offended party pursues the offender winning back their heart through discipline, grace, and love (Jer. 31:31-34). Under the new covenant, God makes this very promise, “I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me” (Jer. 32:40). Notice the key phrase, “That they will never turn away from me.” God promises that even when we stray, he will pursue us, conquer our hearts, and win us back again to a life of obedience.

The basis for our security in salvation is not ultimately our righteousness or obedience but God’s promise, God’s power, God’s purpose, and most of all God’s passionate love for us in Christ. God is committed to preserving us in faith, for if we were to stumble so as to fully and finally fall away, God stands more to lose than we do.

I always heard that Paul never knew of his salvation… Any scripture backing that?
 
These conversations become rather confusing when a Catholic - who has seven Sacraments in their covenant structure - trys to mix and match language and terminology with a protestant denomination who only agrees to having two and then philosophizes about the other five.
 
I agree. So what seeds may I plant with him so I lead him down the right path without making him defensive?
 
Give him his choice of any “Early Church Father,” and read that person’s Bible commentaries together. Those old dead guys wrote a lot of commentaries.
 
So funny you mentioned that!
Over the past 6 months he has sent me emails quoting Church fathers writing on divinity of Christ. he emailed me a quiz on which church fathers are you…My results were “Origen”.
I asked him which church faher he was and he said he was more of a “Calvinist” I suggested he study Ptomely.
I just bough “Fathers Know Best” by Jimmy Akin. I hope he reads and learns but in the mean time I would like to offer my fullness of the faith stance.
Thanks!
 
I don’t read Jeremiah 32:40 such that God is going to violate the human’s free will, but rather it sounds like He is putting fear of Him in their hearts for the purpose of that person never turning away—not that the person never can. The passage is describing God’s guaranteed end of the bargain, like so many supposed OSAS passages do. It also may be a prophecy about the heavenly Jerusalem because of the “everlasting” language. And of course in heaven, it’s true no one will turn away.

Ezekiel 18:21-24 is an OT example pretty straightforward that a person once righteous can turn away. Not to mention the plethora of NT examples of Christians able to turn from the faith.
 
xukeith said:
I need some good seeds to plant in my Calvinist friend’s email.
Here it is:
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, (Jude 24)

Covenant is an eternal binding promise made by God to believers that he will love us unconditionally. This eternal covenant is not a contract. In a contract, the relationship is based on performance, if the terms of the contract are broken, the relationship is terminated under penalty. In a covenant relationship, love is the basis of the relationship. If the covenant is broken, the offended party pursues the offender winning back their heart through discipline, grace, and love (Jer. 31:31-34). Under the new covenant, God makes this very promise, “I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me” (Jer. 32:40). Notice the key phrase, “That they will never turn away from me.” God promises that even when we stray, he will pursue us, conquer our hearts, and win us back again to a life of obedience.

The basis for our security in salvation is not ultimately our righteousness or obedience but God’s promise, God’s power, God’s purpose, and most of all God’s passionate love for us in Christ. God is committed to preserving us in faith, for if we were to stumble so as to fully and finally fall away, God stands more to lose than we do.

I always heard that Paul never knew of his salvation… Any scripture backing that?
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Give him Francis de Sales booklet to read. He was very successful in his day during the protestant revolt getting Calvinists back to the Church. Francis covers all the hot topics.
goodcatholicbooks.org/francis/catholic-controversy.html
 
“…Under the new covenant, God makes this very promise, “I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me” (Jer. 32:40). Notice the key phrase, “That they will never turn away from me.” God promises that even when we stray, he will pursue us, conquer our hearts, and win us back again to a life of obedience…”

The promise that God is making is for those who persevere, who are predestined to glory. Those are the ones who will “never turn away from Me”, or “not plucked from My hand”.

Eph. 1:5 - Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future). There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory. In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory.

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 - therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.
Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 - God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain “elect” people to heaven. We all, as God’s children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God’s grace
 
The doctrine of “once saved, always saved” was invented by John Calvin during the Reformation. Under this theory, the Protestant believes that one is saved when he accepts Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. This is comforting - after all, who wouldn’t want assurance? According to this view, true Christians are the ones who will persevere to the end. For those who accepted Christ during their lives but did not persevere to the end, the doctrine calls these people superficial Christians. So true Christians will go to heaven and superficial Christians will not. Not only is this teaching not Scriptural, it is difficult to accept the teaching on reason.

The only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian did not persevere to the end. Otherwise, the two types of Christians appear to be the same. The superficial Christian has all the earmarks of a true Christian except that he did not persevere. But this necessarily means that the true Christian cannot know that he really is a true Christian either until the end of his life. He, too, won’t know whether his conversion was genuine until the end of his life. Therefore, despite all the talk about assurance, he cannot be sure.

This doctrine, therefore, actually gives its adherents less assurance of their salvation. It necessarily imposes upon them uncertainty until the end. The Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not). Thus, Catholics know that it is theirs to lose. Protestant Calvinists don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.

scripturecatholic.com/justification_qa.html#tradition-11
 
xukeith said:
“I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that **they may **not turn from me” (Jer. 32:40). Notice the key phrase, “That **they will **never turn away from me.” God promises that even when we stray, he will pursue us, conquer our hearts, and win us back again to a life of obedience.
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Actually, this is an issue with Bible translation. Protestant translations like KJV and NIV use “they shall” or “they will”, whereas Catholic translations like RSV, Douay and NAB use “they may”.

There is a whole lot of difference in saying “they will never depart” and “they may never depart”. I think you **shall ** 😃 need to look up the original Hebrew translation so that you may understand what it says in Hebrew.
 
xukeith said:
I always heard that Paul never knew of his salvation… Any scripture backing that?
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Ya.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5

“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.”
 
xukeith said:
The basis for our security in salvation is not ultimately our righteousness or obedience but God’s promise, God’s power, God’s purpose, and most of all God’s passionate love for us in Christ. God is committed to preserving us in faith, for if we were to stumble so as to fully and finally fall away, God stands more to lose than we do.
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God would lose only if he didn’t do what he was supposed to do. God will always continue to offer mercy. But mercy has to be accepted. There are some who first accept mercy through repentance, but then fall away. Paul makes this very clear.

“For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they then commit apostasy, since they crucify the Son of God on their own account and hold him up to contempt.” (Hebrews 6:4-6)

This passage from the Bible is a killer blow to the once saved always saved idea.
 
WesleyF said:
AI think you **shall ** 😃 need to look up the original Hebrew translation so that you may understand what it says in Hebrew.
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I consulted 2 Hebrew interlinear sources. NetBible and Scripture4all. Both of them have as a defining word in there בִּלְתִּי paired with other the word that means “to turn away.” According to Strong’s dictionary (at least the way I’m reading it), when this word בִּלְתִּי is used with a preposition, it likely means “so as not, in order not.” A number of translations include this language: “so that they will never turn” or some paraphrase.

So reiterating what I said before, the verse seems to mean God puts the fear of Himself in their hearts for the purpose of keeping them from turning away. It would be like saying, “I gave my friend a fishing pole so that he could catch fish.” Or I could even say, “I gave my friend a fishing pole that he will catch fish.” In either case, it is not conclusive that the purpose of the gift will absolutely result in the intention of the giver.
 
MarcoPolo said:
I consulted 2 Hebrew interlinear sources. NetBible and Scripture4all. Both of them have as a defining word in there בִּלְתִּי paired with other the word that means “to turn away.” According to Strong’s dictionary (at least the way I’m reading it), when this word בִּלְתִּי is used with a preposition, it likely means “so as not, in order not.” A number of translations include this language: “so that they will never turn” or some paraphrase.

So reiterating what I said before, the verse seems to mean God puts the fear of Himself in their hearts for the purpose of keeping them from turning away. It would be like saying, “I gave my friend a fishing pole so that he could catch fish.” Or I could even say, “I gave my friend a fishing pole that he will catch fish.” In either case, it is not conclusive that the purpose of the gift will absolutely result in the intention of the giver.
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Well done, and God bless.
 
xukeith said:
I need some good seeds to plant in my Calvinist friend’s email.
Here it is:
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, (Jude 24)

Covenant is an eternal binding promise made by God to believers that he will love us unconditionally. This eternal covenant is not a contract. In a contract, the relationship is based on performance, if the terms of the contract are broken, the relationship is terminated under penalty. In a covenant relationship, love is the basis of the relationship. If the covenant is broken, the offended party pursues the offender winning back their heart through discipline, grace, and love (Jer. 31:31-34). Under the new covenant, God makes this very promise, “I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me” (Jer. 32:40). Notice the key phrase, “That they will never turn away from me.” God promises that even when we stray, he will pursue us, conquer our hearts, and win us back again to a life of obedience.

The basis for our security in salvation is not ultimately our righteousness or obedience but God’s promise, God’s power, God’s purpose, and most of all God’s passionate love for us in Christ. God is committed to preserving us in faith, for if we were to stumble so as to fully and finally fall away, God stands more to lose than we do.

I always heard that Paul never knew of his salvation… Any scripture backing that?
Click to expand...
if this was how is supposed to be enterpreted than everybody would be saved and we wouldnt have to worry about the Covenant. protestants broke the Covenant when they left the Church. These promises are for the Jews and today the Church Jesus built. protestants are outside the Church, they have the Bible and they claim whatever is pleasing to them. they dont have the promises of God, Catholics do. we are the people of God, the chosen ones. hope this helps.
 
WesleyF said:
Ya.

1 Corinthians 4:3-5

“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by any human court. I do not even judge myself. I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby acquitted. It is the Lord who judges me. Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.”
Click to expand...
Not quite the whole story…

2Tim4:6-8

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
 
Philthy said:
Not quite the whole story…

2Tim4:6-8

For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing.
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That was towards the end of his life, when he knew he was going to be killed. It’s only after “finishing the race” that we can have such an assurance.
 
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