Responding to a Mormon

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HojaVerde said:
If I’m not wrong, mormons identify Elohim and YHWH as diferent beings. They identify Elohim as the Father and YHWH as the Son. I also think they worship the Father/Elohim, but not the Son/YHWH (see forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11458724&postcount=151).
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Latter-day Saints worship both the Father and the Son. 2 Nephi 25:29 states:

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

The mistake referenced in the link is easy to make in LDS theology and I’ve done it to. We LDS are taught that Jesus is our perfect example. Since Jesus worshipped the Father the natural conclusion is that we should worship the Father also. The author of the link would agree 100% that LDS follow Christ. An on-line definition of “worship” is “reverent love and devotion accorded a deity”. Again, I think the author of the link would agree that LDS have love and devotion for both the Father and the Son.

See this 1 minute video on how LDS worship Christ in their services. youtube.com/watch?v=iUs407sadoY

I hope this helps.
 
gazelam said:
Latter-day Saints worship both the Father and the Son. 2 Nephi 25:29 states:

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

The mistake referenced in the link is easy to make in LDS theology and I’ve done it to. We LDS are taught that Jesus is our perfect example. Since Jesus worshipped the Father the natural conclusion is that we should worship the Father also. The author of the link would agree 100% that LDS follow Christ. An on-line definition of “worship” is “reverent love and devotion accorded a deity”. Again, I think the author of the link would agree that LDS have love and devotion for both the Father and the Son.

See this 1 minute video on how LDS worship Christ in their services. youtube.com/watch?v=iUs407sadoY

I hope this helps.
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lol…I love how you dodge the important points…

I could not belong to a church where I had to dodge the points because they prove me wrong
 
Romans1 said:
If Jesus is not one with the Father in substance, then why did the Jews pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy?
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I think you’re making an assumption that’s not in the text. The Jews considered stoning Him because of His words and deeds. No where does Jesus say the Father and He are one in substance.
 
Romans1 said:
No, God is the Creator of time.
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Where does the Bible state this? The Bible does not support creation ex-nihilo.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Romans1 said:
If God was created, then how can He be the First Cause and the Prime Mover?
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LDS believe that neither God nor man were created, but rather that we’ve all existed from the beginning.
Romans1 said:
Can Mormonism account for God being the First Cause?
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Yes and no. Mormonism teaches that the elements have always existed and that God organizes the elements to carry out His will. God is the creator of the Earth, but He did that by organizing existing matter.
 
Robyn_p said:
No, not quite. Saying there was no god before Him does not mean therefore that there must have been a time when God didn’t exist. But simply that…there was no other god before Him. And that’s because He has always existed, so nothing could exist before Him.

Actually, I argue that this passage is in fact emphasizing the fact that God has always existed. The Jewish people didn’t believe in an eternal universe, they believed in the beginning God created the heavens and earth. If no god existed before Yahweh did, then He couldn’t have been created by any god and therefore must by necessity be uncreated, which is precisely why no god could exist before Him, because He has always existed.
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LDS actually believe that both God and man always existed. I just responded to the verse you cited to make the point that Orthodox Christianity puts forward the belief that God created time. Yet the verse itself uses “before” which assumes a timeline. How can you have a timeline before God if God supposedly created time?
 
gazelam said:
LDS actually believe that both God and man always existed. I just responded to the verse you cited to make the point that Orthodox Christianity puts forward the belief that God created time. Yet the verse itself uses “before” which assumes a timeline. How can you have a timeline before God if God supposedly created time?
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How can you have a god who is a liar?
 
Judas_Thaddeus said:
That’s not what the Bible says, but what do Mormons care: And returning to the man of God (Elisha) with all his (Naaman) train, be
came, and stood before him, and said: In truth, I know there is no other
God in all the earth, but only in Israel: I beseech thee therefore take a
blessing of thy servant.
  • (2 Kings 5:15)
    (By the way, that was from a 1899 bible, so in case you misuse that verse,
    it’s saying that there is no God in existence except the one known in Israel).
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Acts 7:55, 56 (KJV) - Stephen’s stoning… He saw the Father and the Son.

*But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.*
 
gazelam said:
LDS actually believe that both God and man always existed.
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Not really. Wasn’t God once a mortal, sinful man, which means He hasn’t always been God? I’m genuinely interested in knowing how you reconcile infinite and eternal considering this.
gazelam said:
Yet the verse itself uses “before” which assumes a timeline. How can you have a timeline before God if God supposedly created time?
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Not really. Before just means an event occurring prior to the beginning of time, which doesn’t necessarily imply a timeline. Even the LDS believe time is nothing to God. To believe in an infinite past is illogical anyway. How could you get to today if there are an infinite yesterdays?
 
gazelam said:
Acts 7:55, 56 (KJV) - Stephen’s stoning… He saw the Father and the Son.

*But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.*
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For me, that definitely confirms the Trinity as ONE. All three, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all PRESENT at the same time, even though Steven perceived them in his human understanding as being three.
 
gazelam said:
Acts 7:55, 56 (KJV) - Stephen’s stoning… He saw the Father and the Son.

*But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.*
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Except Paul describes Jesus as he “Who is the image of the **invisible **God” (Colossians 1:15).

The Father cannot be seen, so Stephen was using metaphorical language.

What Stephen saw was Jesus in the glory of God the Father, not the Father himself.

You also need to deal with: Now to the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the on-
ly God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
  • (1 Timothy 1:17)
    Try again.
 
taylorf said:
Not really. Wasn’t God once a mortal, sinful man, which means He hasn’t always been God?
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Really. D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God.

The Father was once mortal and in the Bible is referred to sometimes as Man. Jesus calls himself the Son of Man.

Mark 10:18 (KJV 1611) And Iesus said vnto him, Why callest thou me good? There is no man good, but one, that is God.

The Tyndale and Wycliff Bibles also use this verbiage.

As far as the Father being once sinful, there is no canonized LDS scripture that makes such a claim. Joseph Smith never claimed that the Father sinned.
 
gazelam said:
Says who? They Both as separate and distinct beings have the same divine powers and traits.
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What is “substance”? What is “separate ‘and’ distinct”? I believe we’ve been through this before. If they have the same Divine traits, they are of the same substance. Perhaps you’re not using the word the way orthodox Christians theologically do.
 
gazelam said:
Really. D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God.

The Father was once mortal and in the Bible is referred to sometimes as Man. Jesus calls himself the Son of Man.

Mark 10:18 (KJV 1611) And Iesus said vnto him, Why callest thou me good? There is no man good, but one, that is God.

The Tyndale and Wycliff Bibles also use this verbiage.

As far as the Father being once sinful, there is no canonized LDS scripture that makes such a claim. Joseph Smith never claimed that the Father sinned.
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As I stated and demonstrated in another thread, while they may not outright claim that the Father was once sinful, various LDS leaders and manuals have taught that the Father was once a man that progressed to/achieved Godhood (meaning He wasn’t always God. Joseph Smith himself set out to refute the idea that God has always been God from all eternity), that God achieved His exaltation just like we are trying to, etc. All ideas unsupported by the Bible, let alone historic Judaism and Christianity.

And of course, LDS teaching is not limited to canonized scriptures.
 
gazelam said:
Where does the Bible state this? The Bible does not support creation ex-nihilo.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
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This verse does not counter creation ex nihilo. From the creation ex nihilo viewpoint, God very well could have formed man from the dust of the ground. The point would be that the dust, or whatever as we go back in time, would be created from nothing.

Further, where does the Bible say that everything must be found in the Bible? That itself is an unbiblical standard.
Asking your own question, where does the Bible say this?
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Yes and no. Mormonism teaches that the elements have always existed and that God organizes the elements to carry out His will. God is the creator of the Earth, but He did that by organizing existing matter.
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Again, where does the Bible teach that the elements are co-eternal with God?
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gazelam said:
Acts 7:55, 56 (KJV) - Stephen’s stoning… He saw the Father and the Son.

*But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.*
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And?

Why should any of us listen to a guy whose faith relies on Jesus and God being liars?
 
gazelam said:
Where does the Bible state this? The Bible does not support creation ex-nihilo.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

LDS believe that neither God nor man were created, but rather that we’ve all existed from the beginning.

Yes and no. Mormonism teaches that the elements have always existed and that God organizes the elements to carry out His will. God is the creator of the Earth, but He did that by organizing existing matter.
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So where did that original existing matter come from?
 
TexanKnight said:
And?

Why should any of us listen to a guy whose faith relies on Jesus and God being liars?
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Now Now, gazelam asked a somewhat challenging question, deserves a good response:
Judas_Thaddeus said:
Except Paul describes Jesus as he “Who is the image of the **invisible **God” (Colossians 1:15).

The Father cannot be seen, so Stephen was using metaphorical language.

What Stephen saw was Jesus in the glory of God the Father, not the Father himself.

You also need to deal with: Now to the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the on-
ly God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
  • (1 Timothy 1:17)
    Try again.
Click to expand...
 
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