Responding to a Mormon

[RebeccaJ]

Supposed you do show that verse to an unsuspecting Mormon, won’t you be contradicting the Catholic belief that God created time, since the verse refers to a time before God?

Say what? God doesn’t refer to a time before Himself. Quite the opposite, there is no time before God.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Says who? They Both as separate and distinct beings have the same divine powers and traits.

This implies multiple gods sharing powers. Logically one cannot share power and be called all powerful.

 

[TexanKnight]

Now Now, gazelam asked a somewhat challenging question, deserves a good response:

So have I. Several times. And I NEVER receive an answer.

Don;t I deserve one from him?

 

[Veedar]

Hello, I am researching Mormonism and their beliefs about God and I found a Mormon response regard Isaiah 43, 44, and 45. Here is his response: “Some Christians claim that the Mormon doctrine of the Godhead and belief in theosis are not compatible with multiple statements in Isaiah that “beside [the Lord] there is no God.” These passages include Isaiah 43:10-11; Isaiah 44:6,8; Isaiah 45:5-6; Isaiah 45:21-22; and Isaiah 46:9-10. These scriptures in Isaiah clearly are meant to assert the supremacy, authority, and superiority of Yahweh over not only over false idols but over all else, including real gods.
The passages in Isaiah cannot be called upon to disprove LDS beliefs in separate divine beings in the Godhead or theosis. Their main point is to encourage Israel to stop worshiping other divine beings or idols but to worship Yahweh alone (see Isaiah 41:29, Isaiah 42:8, Isaiah 43:10,12,24, Isaiah 44:8,9,10,17,19, Isaiah 45:9,12,16,20,22.
Any other use of these passages distorts Isaiah’s meaning and intent.” The details are found on this page: en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/%22No_God_beside_me%22
How do I respond to this?

The argument is silly. The reasons why idol worship is prohibited in Isaiah are twofold:

1. God cannot be compared to anything else. There is absolutely nothing that is like God. Hence you cannot make an image that looks like God.

““With whom will you compare me or count me equal? To whom will you liken me that we may be compared? Some pour out gold from their bags and weigh out silver on the scales;
they hire a goldsmith to make it into a god, and they bow down and worship it(…)Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me” (Isaiah 46:5-6,9).

1. There is no other God. God does not know of any other God. Hence, there is nobody else to worship.

"Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” (Isaiah 44:8)

So… Could there REALLY be a God that God does not know about?

“I am the Lord, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself” (Isaiah 44:24b).

This contradicts the LDS temple ceremony where God co-creates the earth with Jesus and Michael. (And for the record, Jesus is a separate God in mormonism).

I think they would be better off saying that LDS doctrine contradicts Isaiah on this point, rather than performing mental gymnastics to try to make it fit with their conception of God. After all, there are numerous passages in the Bible itself that contradict Isaiah, because the understanding of YHWH developed over time, from a tribal god, to the greatest of all the tribal Gods and finally to the only God in existence.

 

[Stephen168]

Supposed you do show that verse to an unsuspecting Mormon, won’t you be contradicting the Catholic belief that God created time, since the verse refers to a time before God?

I would not assume that word ‘before’ referred to time.
2 Samuel 6:23:

Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death

 

[Stephen168]

I think you’re making an assumption that’s not in the text. The Jews considered stoning Him because of His words and deeds. No where does Jesus say the Father and He are one in substance.

Mormonism does not know who Jesus is: John 1:1, John 8:58 and Ex 3:14, John 10:30, Philippians 2:5-8, Ephesians 4:4-6, Colossians 1:15-17 and Genesis 1:1-31, Colossians 2:9, Matthew 28:19, 2 Corinthians 13:14, 1 Peter 1:1-2

 

[kimg901]

To the Original Poster. Mormons are a deceitful bunch. They say the CC is apostate but will use the ECF’s writings to try and justify their beliefs. Nothing about the lds church is true. In order for their church to be true, Jesus/God would have failed the first time when creating His Church. Don’t get sucked into their b.s. You will not become a god/goddess or get your own planet. Heck, their last so-called prophet (Hinckley) said that the Jesus we worship is not the same Jesus they worship. It all about the money in the lds church and you can pay the most. More money you spend the better your afterlife

 

[HojaVerde]

Latter-day Saints worship both the Father and the Son. 2 Nephi 25:29 states:

And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.

The mistake referenced in the link is easy to make in LDS theology and I’ve done it to. We LDS are taught that Jesus is our perfect example. Since Jesus worshipped the Father the natural conclusion is that we should worship the Father also. The author of the link would agree 100% that LDS follow Christ. An on-line definition of “worship” is “reverent love and devotion accorded a deity”. Again, I think the author of the link would agree that LDS have love and devotion for both the Father and the Son.

See this 1 minute video on how LDS worship Christ in their services. youtube.com/watch?v=iUs407sadoY

I hope this helps.

Ok, thank you for the explanation and the video. But, do you worship the Holy Spirit? Is the way you worship the Father distinct from the way you worship the Son (and the Holy Spirit)?

If you believe that the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) are two (three) different beings or gods, you would be worshiping two (three) gods, don’t you think?

God told us that there is only one God, didn’t He? And that He doesn’t know of another, does He?

According to your belief, Who said Isaiah 43:10 “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me”?

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by gazelam
I think you’re making an assumption that’s not in the text. The Jews considered stoning Him because of His words and deeds. No where does Jesus say the Father and He are one in substance.

An assumption in the text? And Mormonism does it even worse. And no where does Jesus teach the Father was once a man and had another Father. How about being gods on other planets?

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by gazelam
Where does the Bible state this? The Bible does not support creation ex-nihilo.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

LDS believe that neither God nor man were created, but rather that we’ve all existed from the beginning.

Yes and no.** Mormonism teaches that the elements have always existed and that God organizes the elements **to carry out His will. God is the creator of the Earth, but He did that by organizing existing matter.

Precisely why Mormons are NOT Christians and worship a different entity or entities.

Tell me something:

If elements have always existed then WHO created matter? The Mormon God is NOT the Almighty Creator of EVERYTHING but a lesser god bound and restricted to time,space and matter like humans.

 

[TexanKnight]

Precisely why Mormons are NOT Christians and worship a different entity or entities.

Tell me something:

If elements have always existed then WHO created matter? The Mormon God is NOT the Almighty Creator of EVERYTHING but a lesser god bound and restricted to time,space and matter like humans.

exactly. And no better than the folks who will become gods under the lds plan

 

[Nicea325]

exactly. And no better than the folks who will become gods under the lds plan

I just do not get the LDS church. It really baffles me how they claim to be “Christians” yet totally present an entirely different Eternal God and will argue with one that they are Christians? I do not get it?

 

[TexanKnight]

I just do not get the LDS church. It really baffles me how they claim to be “Christians” yet totally present an entirely different Eternal God and will argue with one that they are Christians? I do not get it?

and their arguments are, to be nice, very odd. They either ignore, deflect, or have some really outlandish argument.

Like the arguments defending Cumorah, or the 9 versions, or blacks…

they remind me of the arguments little kids make when the argument makes no sense, but the little kid truly expects you to accept it and believe it.

Like the old Cosby story about two kids jumping on the bed when they were not supposed to. The dad walks in and asks them who was doing it “a burgler, dad”. Dad says, “where did he go?” The kids said, “thru the window!” The dad says, “there is no window in this room” The kids say, “He took the window with him!” And they truly expected dad to believe it.

The LDS arguments are just as nonsensical, yet they just as much fully expect us to believe them

 

[Stephen168]

Joseph’s Smith teachings on exaltation, polygamy, baptism of the dead, and melchizedek priesthood are inventions not restoration.

Brigham Young’s claim that apostles are required to lead the Church, Adam was god the father, and blood atonement are inventions not a restoration.

Christ’s presence in the Eucharist was taught by Christ, the Apostles and the Catholic Church for 2000 years. It is the the consistent sign of the Christ’s Church which is not a Mormon teaching.

Mormonism is an invention not a restoration.

 

[Romans1]

I think you’re making an assumption that’s not in the text. The Jews considered stoning Him because of His words and deeds. No where does Jesus say the Father and He are one in substance.

Leviticus 24:16 “And he that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, dying let him die. All the multitude shall stone him, whether he be a native or a stranger. He that blasphemeth the name of the Lord, dying let him die.” We can conclude that the punishment for blasphemy under the Law was stoning to death. Therefore, the Jews wanted Jesus stoned because they thought He blasphemed God. “30 I and the Father are one.
31 The Jews then took up stones to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them: Many good works I have shewed you from my Father. For which of those works do you stone me?
33 The Jews answered him: For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy: and because that thou. being a, man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law: I said, you are gods?
35 If he called them gods to whom the word of God was spoken; and the scripture cannot be broken:
36 Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest; because I said: I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me and I in the Father.” John 10:30-38. The Jews knew exactly Who He was claiming to be.

 

[Romans1]

Where does the Bible state this? The Bible does not support creation ex-nihilo.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV) And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

LDS believe that neither God nor man were created, but rather that we’ve all existed from the beginning.

Yes and no. Mormonism teaches that the elements have always existed and that God organizes the elements to carry out His will. God is the creator of the Earth, but He did that by organizing existing matter.

If that’s true, then how can God be omnipotent without creating the entire universe out of nothing? The gap between existence and non-existence is infinite. This is consistent with God’s infinite nature. Therefore, it seems as if Mormonism cannot account for the Cosmological Argument.

 

[gazelam]

What is “substance”? What is “separate ‘and’ distinct”? I believe we’ve been through this before. If they have the same Divine traits, they are of the same substance. Perhaps you’re not using the word the way orthodox Christians theologically do.

Well, I was trying to use “substance” in the sense of “homoousiosis” (a really, really fancy word for me to attempt to use!)

From theopedia.com/Trinity

Homoousiosis - a Greek term that means “of the same substance”. It was used against Arianism to define the relationship of Jesus and God the Father. They were of the same substance, or in other words, were of the same being.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Well, I was trying to use “substance” in the sense of “homoousiosis” (a really, really fancy word for me to attempt to use!)

From theopedia.com/Trinity

Homoousiosis - a Greek term that means “of the same substance”. It was used against Arianism to define the relationship of Jesus and God the Father. They were of the same substance, or in other words, were of the same being.

Okay. Sorry if I wasn’t clear, but I’d like to know what that means to you. What does homoousios/one substance/being/essence/nature mean? As I mentioned, perhaps your understanding of that is different from the orthodox understanding of it (I’ve seen this many times, especially in Trinitarian criticisms that really address Modalism).

Also, what does it mean that the Persons are separate and distinct? Why use both words? Trinitarians use those two words in a specific way (along with words like being/essence/substance).

But yes, I believe we’ve had this conversation before, IIRC, but I think it’s important when someone claims that the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one substance isn’t scriptural.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I think you’re making an assumption that’s not in the text. The Jews considered stoning Him because of His words and deeds. No where does Jesus say the Father and He are one in substance.

The Jews on one occasion actually said different, “We are not stoning you
for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere
man, claim to be God.” (John 10:33)
(You’re half right actually, you did say “words” too)

 

[Romans1]

the jews on one occasion actually said different, “we are not stoning you
for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere
man, claim to be god.” (john 10:33)
(you’re half right actually, you did say “words” too)

Спасибо!