Responding to a Mormon

[gazelam]

Ok, thank you for the explanation and the video. But, do you worship the Holy Spirit? Is the way you worship the Father distinct from the way you worship the Son (and the Holy Spirit)?

If you believe that the Father and the Son (and the Holy Spirit) are two (three) different beings or gods, you would be worshiping two (three) gods, don’t you think?

God told us that there is only one God, didn’t He? And that He doesn’t know of another, does He?

According to your belief, Who said Isaiah 43:10 “Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me”?

I don’t think I’ll be able to answer each question in depth, but I would like to refer you to a talk by the late Elder Bruce R. McConkie at speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=602. It illustrates the nuance of the word “worship” in LDS theology. I’m pretty sure that Elder McConkie, Elder Ballard, the LDS commenter you referenced earlier and myself would be in agreement with each of the points in Elder McConkie’s talk.

LDS seek to glorify God the Father, not Jesus Christ. nor the Holy Ghost.

He starts out saying…

*I shall speak of our relationship with the Lord and of the true fellowship all Saints should have with the Father. I shall set forth what we must believe relative to the Father and the Son in order to gain eternal life. *

Regarding worshipping the Son and the Holy Ghost he says…

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

In his talk he addresses each of these LDS beliefs and includes a paragraph or two about each…

We worship the Father and him only and no one else.
We love and serve both the Father and the Son.
Christ himself loves, serves, and worships the Father.
The plan of salvation is the gospel of the Father.
Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father.
All men must worship the Father in the same way Christ did in order to gain salvation.
The Father sent the Son to work out the infinite and eternal atonement.
The Son came to do the will of the Father in all things.
God, through Christ, is reconciling men to himself.
Christ is the Mediator between God and man.
Christ is our Intercessor with the Father, our Advocate in the courts above.
Our eternal fellowship is with the Father and the Son.
God was in Christ manifesting himself to the world.
Christ is the Way to the Father.
Christ proclaims the gospel of the Father.
Christ glorifies the Father and so must we.

I hope this helps.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Regarding worshipping the Son and the Holy Ghost he says…

…We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator…

But is Jesus not identified as Jehovah in the Temple film in his preexistence as “Elohim”
assigns him and Michael to create the world (in the LDS Endowment)? Also, Jesus is a-
gain seen as Jehovah in Moroni 10:34 and Doctrine & Covenants 110:3-4.

 

[Miriam1947]

Please read the entire article.

**
LDS World: Remember the Prophet Joseph Smith’s birthday**

At this busy and wonderful time of the year, many people’s thoughts turn to Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, and rightly so as we seek to draw closer to him and find ways to help and serve others as he did.

However, another important December date is often forgotten in the rush of the season. On Dec. 23, 1805, in Sharon, Vt., the fifth child of Joseph and Lucy Smith, Joseph Smith, Jr., was born. While members of the church worship and acknowledge the divinity of Jesus Christ, yet they should revere Joseph Smith.

From the tender age of 14 his purpose, growing ever more fixed as his life progressed, was to do the will of God and to reestablish on earth Christ’s church, the priesthood of God, and all attendant ordinances and covenants necessary for the salvation of mankind.As the Doctrine and Covenants affirms, “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.”

The breadth and depth of his accomplishments are astounding and as I more closely studied his life and accomplishments I came to revere him and to know that he was and is a Prophet of God.

deseretnews.com/article/705379702/Remember-the-Prophet-Joseph-Smiths-birthday.html?pg=all

Merry Smithmas to our Mormon friends.

 

[iepuras]

Please read the entire article.

**
LDS World: Remember the Prophet Joseph Smith’s birthday**

At this busy and wonderful time of the year, many people’s thoughts turn to Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, and rightly so as we seek to draw closer to him and find ways to help and serve others as he did.

However, another important December date is often forgotten in the rush of the season. On Dec. 23, 1805, in Sharon, Vt., the fifth child of Joseph and Lucy Smith, Joseph Smith, Jr., was born. While members of the church worship and acknowledge the divinity of Jesus Christ, yet they should revere Joseph Smith.

From the tender age of 14 his purpose, growing ever more fixed as his life progressed, was to do the will of God and to reestablish on earth Christ’s church, the priesthood of God, and all attendant ordinances and covenants necessary for the salvation of mankind.As the Doctrine and Covenants affirms, “Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it.”

The breadth and depth of his accomplishments are astounding and as I more closely studied his life and accomplishments I came to revere him and to know that he was and is a Prophet of God.

deseretnews.com/article/705379702/Remember-the-Prophet-Joseph-Smiths-birthday.html?pg=all

Merry Smithmas to our Mormon friends.

Last year in my former ward’s Primary (class for all the children under the age of 12), they actually celebrated Joseph Smith’s birthday on the Sunday before Christmas rather than remembering Jesus Christ and His Nativity. I will also note that the LDS do not have church or any other worship services on Christmas day so the Sunday before Christmas is generally the day to celebrate Christmas at church. Their ignoring of Jesus Christ and elevating of Joseph Smith actually upset my True Believing Mormon mother.

 

[LivingWaters7]

I must say, it was refreshing coming back to the Catholic Church where I can fully worship and glorify all three Divine Persons of the Blessed Trinity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. I especially love that I can talk to/pray to my Divine Savior, Jesus Christ.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We worship the Father and him only and no one else.
We love and serve both the Father and the Son.
Christ himself loves, serves, and worships the Father.
The plan of salvation is the gospel of the Father.
Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father.
All men must worship the Father in the same way Christ did in order to gain salvation.
The Father sent the Son to work out the infinite and eternal atonement.
The Son came to do the will of the Father in all things.
God, through Christ, is reconciling men to himself.
Christ is the Mediator between God and man.
Christ is our Intercessor with the Father, our Advocate in the courts above.
Our eternal fellowship is with the Father and the Son.
God was in Christ manifesting himself to the world.
Christ is the Way to the Father.
Christ proclaims the gospel of the Father.
Christ glorifies the Father and so must we.

I hope this helps.

Holy guacamole! A Mormon creed.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I will also note that the LDS do not have church or any other worship services on Christmas day so the Sunday before Christmas is generally the day to celebrate Christmas at church. Their ignoring of Jesus Christ and elevating of Joseph Smith actually upset my True Believing Mormon mother.

I have observed that there are LDS who desire to worship on Christmas. Some fill this need by making time for worship in their own homes with their families. Some seek a community experience, and so join Christians at Mass and other services, to worship Christ and celebrate the Incarnation with us. God brings them to us, which I see as a good thing, and wouldn’t happen if they had a Christmas Sacrament Meeting to go to. (I find that a funny thing to type, Christ’s Mass Sacrament Meeting. )

 

[iepuras]

I have observed that there are LDS who desire to worship on Christmas. Some fill this need by making time for worship in their own homes with their families. Some seek a community experience, and so join Christians at Mass and other services, to worship Christ and celebrate the Incarnation with us. God brings them to us, which I see as a good thing, and wouldn’t happen if they had a Christmas Sacrament Meeting to go to. (I find that a funny thing to type, Christ’s Mass Sacrament Meeting. )

You make a very good point. It is a good thing. I hope to reach my mother eventually. My mother was Protestant (Presbyterian I think) before joining the LDS church at the age of 14. She has long bemoaned the lack of real Christmas or Easter celebrations in the LDS church. I am hoping and praying that she will attend my baptism at Easter Vigil. Maybe someday she will attend Christmas Mass with us. Even my True Believing Mormon brother (who thinks I am a fool) has attended Midnight Mass at the cathedral in Salt Lake at least once so that he could hear some “real Christmas music”! LOL!

 

[RebeccaJ]

You make a very good point. It is a good thing. I hope to reach my mother eventually. My mother was Protestant (Presbyterian I think) before joining the LDS church at the age of 14. She has long bemoaned the lack of real Christmas or Easter celebrations in the LDS church. I am hoping and praying that she will attend my baptism at Easter Vigil. Maybe someday she will attend Christmas Mass with us. Even my True Believing Mormon brother (who thinks I am a fool) has attended Midnight Mass at the cathedral in Salt Lake at least once so that he could hear some “real Christmas music”! LOL!

The Cathedral is packed for the midnight Mass. Lots of visiting family, non-Catholics and Christmas/Easter Catholics. We go to the Vigil Mass on Christmas eve. Same choir, same music. Beautiful. Then we spend Christmas day with our LDS families, who plan all kinds of good things all day, but not time for Mass. LOL.

 

[PJM]

=Romans1;11504749]Hello, I am researching Mormonism and their beliefs about God and I found a Mormon response regard Isaiah 43, 44, and 45. Here is his response: “Some Christians claim that the Mormon doctrine of the Godhead and belief in theosis are not compatible with multiple statements in Isaiah that “beside [the Lord] there is no God.” These passages include Isaiah 43:10-11; Isaiah 44:6,8; Isaiah 45:5-6; Isaiah 45:21-22; and Isaiah 46:9-10. These scriptures in Isaiah clearly are meant to assert the supremacy, authority, and superiority of Yahweh over not only over false idols but over all else, including real gods.
The passages in Isaiah cannot be called upon to disprove LDS beliefs in separate divine beings in the Godhead or theosis. Their main point is to encourage Israel to stop worshiping other divine beings or idols but to worship Yahweh alone (see Isaiah 41:29, Isaiah 42:8, Isaiah 43:10,12,24, Isaiah 44:8,9,10,17,19, Isaiah 45:9,12,16,20,22.
Any other use of these passages distorts Isaiah’s meaning and intent.” The details are found on this page: en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_the_nature_of_God/%22No_God_beside_me%22
How do I respond to this?

There is, has been and shall always be ONLY One TRUE God [TRIUNE]
Mt. 3:13- 17
"Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” But Jesus answered him, “Let it be so now; for thus it is fitting for us to fulfil all righteousness.” Then he consented. And when Jesus [The Son] was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God [THE HOLY SPIRIT] descending like a dove, and alighting on him; and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, “This is my beloved Son,[THE FATHER] with whom I am well pleased.”

Their basic beliefs DO NOT recognize OUR God as TRULY GOD.

Their gods [plural] are NOT our One true God-Triune, so the issue is mute. AMEN!

 

[gazelam]

Holy guacamole! A Mormon creed.

 

[SteveVH]

Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father.

I hope this helps.

From what did Jesus need to be saved? Do you believe that Jesus was a sinner? Because it appears that this is exactly what this statement implies.

Thanks.

 

[SteveVH]

Hello, I am researching Mormonism and their beliefs about God and I found a Mormon response regard Isaiah 43, 44, and 45. Here is his response: "Some Christians claim that the Mormon doctrine of the Godhead and belief in theosis are not compatible with multiple statements in Isaiah that “beside [the Lord] there is no God.” These passages include Isaiah 43:10-11; Isaiah 44:6,8; Isaiah 45:5-6; Isaiah 45:21-22; and Isaiah 46:9-10. These scriptures in Isaiah clearly are meant to assert the supremacy, authority, and superiority of Yahweh over not only over false idols but over all else, including real gods.

I would take exception to the statement that Mormons believe in “theosis”. In fact, they believe in “exaltation” rather than “theosis”. Big difference.

 

[batman1973]

My response to Mormons is: There are several branches of Latter Day Saintism that believe in the Trinity, and reject the polytheistic views of the Utah Church. Each group is willing to state that they are Truth restored. With the same conviction as any Mormon. Why should I consider the Utah group, then?

 

[taylorf]

My response to Mormons is: There are several branches of Latter Day Saintism that believe in the Trinity, and reject the polytheistic views of the Utah Church. Each group is willing to state that they are Truth restored. With the same conviction as any Mormon. Why should I consider the Utah group, then?

Why consider any LDS group? They all originate from the same corrupt source.

 

[taylorf]

It illustrates the nuance of the word “worship” in LDS theology.

This illustrates the primary strategy for Mormon apologetics. When the argument doesn’t work, just change the definition of the word and make it fit. You can replace the word ‘worship’ with just about any other (e.g., eternal, infinite, created, grace, salvation, etc) to defend LDS doctrine.

 

[taylorf]

Regarding worshipping the Son and the Holy Ghost he says…

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense—the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.

So how is this consistent with George Q. Cannon and Gordon B. Hinckley? Seems perfectly contradictory to me.

"We worship them as one God—not three Gods, not two Gods but as one God. The Father and the Son are the two personages of the Deity, with the Holy Ghost as their ministering Spirit or agent. We worship them as one. We do not separate them in our thoughts and in our feelings…" [George Q. Cannon]

“We worship God our Eternal Father and the risen Lord Jesus Christ.” [Gordon B. Hinckley]

 

[batman1973]

Why consider any LDS group? They all originate from the same corrupt source.

That’s kinda my point. All LDS groups make the claims. Only the Utah group is specific on polythesim. I would become Roman Catholic before rejoining any LDS “church”

 

[gazelam]

From what did Jesus need to be saved? Do you believe that Jesus was a sinner?

The New Testament is clear that Jesus did not sin. IMHO Jesus worked out his salvation by carrying out His Father’s will perfectly.

Because it appears that this is exactly what this statement implies.

Does CCC 1213 imply that Jesus sinned? He was baptized after all.

Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.

Thanks.

You are welcome.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

The New Testament is clear that Jesus did not sin. IMHO Jesus worked out his salvation by carrying out His Father’s will perfectly.

Forget your “IMHO.” What is the Mormon doctrine?

Does CCC 1213 imply that Jesus sinned? He was baptized after all.

Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.

Jesus didn’t NEED baptism as you’re saying (no other way to
interpret “He was baptized after all”). The Baptism of Jesus is
better explained in this video: ** Why Was Jesus Baptized? **
Jesus was not a sinner, he had no personal salvation to work out, because Jesus is God.