Responding to a Mormon

[SteveVH]

The New Testament is clear that Jesus did not sin. IMHO Jesus worked out his salvation by carrying out His Father’s will perfectly.

But that doesn’t answer my question. You cannot simultaneously say that Christ worked out his salvation and then claim that he had no sin from which to be saved. What do you think salvation means? Christ is the Savior. He does not need to be saved from anything and therefore had no salvation to “work out”.

Does CCC 1213 imply that Jesus sinned? He was baptized after all.

Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word.

No, it does not imply that he sinned. You need to read on to the next paragraph:

"1224 Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to “fulfill all righteousness.”19 Jesus’ gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying.20 The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his “beloved Son.”21 (536) (CCC)

The baptism of John was one of repentance rather than regeneration. Christ had nothing that needed to be regenerated, nor did he have anything of which to repent. He was showing forth his humility by fulfilling the law perfectly. This event was the beginning of Christ’s public ministry and the first revelation of God as Trinity.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

…No, it does not imply that he sinned. You need to read on to the next paragraph:

"1224 Our Lord voluntarily submitted himself to the baptism of St. John, intended for sinners, in order to “fulfill all righteousness.”19 Jesus’ gesture is a manifestation of his self-emptying.20 The Spirit who had hovered over the waters of the first creation descended then on the Christ as a prelude of the new creation, and the Father revealed Jesus as his “beloved Son.”21 (536) (CCC)

The baptism of John was one of repentance rather than regeneration. Christ had nothing that needed to be regenerated, nor did he have anything of which to repent. He was showing forth his humility by fulfilling the law perfectly. This event was the beginning of Christ’s public ministry and the first revelation of God as Trinity.

OH!
I had like NO IDEA!
CONTEXT IS OUR FRIEND . . . :hypno: . . . WAIT! I meant: :hug1:

 

[SteveVH]

OH!
I had like NO IDEA!
CONTEXT IS OUR FRIEND . . . :hypno: . . . WAIT! I meant: :hug1:

 

[Janderich]

But that doesn’t answer my question. You cannot simultaneously say that Christ worked out his salvation and then claim that he had no sin from which to be saved. What do you think salvation means? Christ is the Savior. He does not need to be saved from anything and therefore had no salvation to “work out”.

Here is Joseph Smiths answer on salvation:

“Salvation is nothing more nor less than to triumph over all our enemies and put them under our feet. And when we have power to put all enemies under our feet in this world, and a knowledge to triumph over all evil spirits in the world to come, then we are saved, as in the case of Jesus, who was to reign until He had put all enemies under His feet, and the last enemy was death [see 1 Corinthians 15:25–26]. (History of the Church, 5:387–88)

Salvation is not simply limited to freedom from sin but also involves power and knowledge. In the next world those who have neither of these two will find themselves brought under bondage.

This is precisely why Jesus came to this earth, to gain power over his enemies. Thanks to him we also do the same. Power is only obtained through our bodies. "“We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none. All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.” (“Extracts from William Clayton’s Private Book,” pp. 7–8)

Christ showed us the way. He never committed a sin but grew step by step. As the D&C says, "And I, John, saw that he received not of the fullness at the first, but received grace for grace; and he received not of the fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fullness. (D&C 93:12-13). Thanks to him we can now walk imperfectly the same path he trod. We follow the Son, but it is the Father’s plan. Even Christ came not to do his own will but God’s who sent him.

 

[SteveVH]

I would become Roman Catholic before rejoining any LDS “church”

Sounds like “I would rather get a root canal…”.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Here is Joseph Smiths answer on salvation: Salvation is not simply limited to freedom from sin but also involves power and knowledge. In the next world those who have neither of these two will find themselves brought under bondage.

This is precisely why Jesus came to this earth, to gain power over his enemies. Thanks to him we also do the same. Power is only obtained through our bodies. "“We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none. All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.” (“Extracts from William Clayton’s Private Book,” pp. 7–8)

Christ showed us the way. He never committed a sin but grew step by step. As the D&C says, "And I, John, saw that he received not of the fullness at the first, but received grace for grace; and he received not of the fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fullness. (D&C 93:12-13). Thanks to him we can now walk imperfectly the same path he trod. We follow the Son, but it is the Father’s plan. Even Christ came not to do his own will but God’s who sent him.

God is omnipotent.
God is omniscient.
Jesus is God.

The fables of Smith don’t align to reality now, do they?

 

[SteveVH]

Here is Joseph Smiths answer on salvation: Salvation is not simply limited to freedom from sin but also involves power and knowledge. In the next world those who have neither of these two will find themselves brought under bondage.

First of all, I am responding to a comment attributed to Bruce R. McKonkie, as follows:

Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father

May I ask you to just use your reason for one moment. If one must “work out” their salvation then there must be something from which they need to be saved. From what did Jesus need to be saved?

This is precisely why Jesus came to this earth, to gain power over his enemies.

Jesus always had power over his enemies. He is God. He came to save us, not to be saved.

Thanks to him we also do the same. Power is only obtained through our bodies. "“We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment.

If power is only obtained through our bodies But the devil has no body? Therefore, we must conclude that the devil has no power

He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none. All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.” (“Extracts from William Clayton’s Private Book,” pp. 7–8)

Christ showed us the way. He never committed a sin but grew step by step. As the D&C says, "And I, John, saw that he received not of the fullness at the first, but received grace for grace; and he received not of the fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fullness. (D&C 93:12-13). Thanks to him we can now walk imperfectly the same path he trod. We follow the Son, but it is the Father’s plan. Even Christ came not to do his own will but God’s who sent him.

 

[SteveVH]

Here is Joseph Smiths answer on salvation: Salvation is not simply limited to freedom from sin but also involves power and knowledge. In the next world those who have neither of these two will find themselves brought under bondage.

First of all, I am responding to a comment attributed to Bruce R. McKonkie, as follows:

Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father

May I ask you to just use your reason for one moment. If one must “work out” their salvation then there must be something from which they need to be saved. From what did Jesus need to be saved?

This is precisely why Jesus came to this earth, to gain power over his enemies.

Jesus always had power over his enemies. He is God. He came to save us, not to be saved.

Thanks to him we also do the same. Power is only obtained through our bodies. "“We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment.

If power is only obtained through our bodies and the devil has no body then we must conclude that the devil has no power, correct? That is patently absurd. If the devil had no power he would not need to be defeated and we would not need a Savior.

Christ showed us the way. He never committed a sin but grew step by step. As the D&C says, "And I, John, saw that he received not of the fullness at the first, but received grace for grace; and he received not of the fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fullness. (D&C 93:12-13). Thanks to him we can now walk imperfectly the same path he trod. We follow the Son, but it is the Father’s plan. Even Christ came not to do his own will but God’s who sent him.

So Jesus came to show us how to save ourselves?

 

[zaffiroborant]

God is omnipotent.
God is omniscient.
Jesus is God.

The fables of Smith don’t align to reality now, do they?

Every time LDS explain the next life further it becomes even less appealing if not down right dreary, even awful. It’s just more of the same life we have here, endless power struggle, getting ahead. It’s more like the Hindu cast system than heaven.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Here is Joseph Smiths answer on salvation

Which is wro-o-ong…

Salvation is not simply limited to freedom from sin but also involves power and knowledge. In the next world those who have neither of these two will find themselves brought under bondage.

“Power and Knowledge”? That isn’t salvation. Salvation is not limited to freedom from sin, you’re right there, but it is present with the Lord forever without any chance of ev-
er losing the Lord again. Not good enough for Mormons, obviously, no you have to be
a god, rule over your own planet, and yada yada . . . yada-yada.

This is precisely why Jesus came to this earth, to gain power over his enemies. Thanks to him we also do the same. Power is only obtained through our bodies. "“We came to this earth that we might have a body and present it pure before God in the celestial kingdom. The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The devil has no body, and herein is his punishment. He is pleased when he can obtain the tabernacle of man, and when cast out by the Savior he asked to go into the herd of swine, showing that he would prefer a swine’s body to having none. All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not.” (“Extracts from William Clayton’s Private Book,” pp. 7–8)

Wrong again. Angels don’t have bodies, Angels are spirits. The Devil is an Angel, a
fallen angel, he’s not my spirit brother (he might be yours…). We are born with bod-
ies because that’s what God wanted from the beginning, and when sin is defeated,
the faithful will have perfected bodies, never die, never become gods (I’m sorry), and
live forever as God planned from the beginning.
Now try this on for size:
gotquestions.org/Jesus-demons-pigs.html

Christ showed us the way. He never committed a sin but grew step by step. As the D&C says, "And I, John, saw that he received not of the fullness at the first, but received grace for grace; and he received not of the fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fullness. (D&C 93:12-13). Thanks to him we can now walk imperfectly the same path he trod. We follow the Son, but it is the Father’s plan. Even Christ came not to do his own will but God’s who sent him.

You have to prove that with Scriptures, not the D&C, as it’s nothing but a fraud (Section 132…)

Try again.

 

[LivingWaters7]

This is precisely why Jesus came to this earth, to gain power over his enemies.

So it is LDS belief that prior to Christ’s incarnation, He, as God, didn’t have power over His enemies?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

So it is LDS belief that prior to Christ’s incarnation, He, as God, didn’t have power over His enemies?

They don’t even believe that Christ was A god YET! but had to BECOME a god by
living as a human, living the perfect life, and dying on the cross. So “God” with the
CAPITAL “G” doesn’t even apply to Jesus in Mormonism.

 

[kimg901]

I just don’t get it. God gives us His Church only to let it fail? Why did God let this happen? The devil surely has been working hard for centuries trying to get people to stray away from Gods Church with false doctrine. And its working These questions aren’t only for Mormons but others as well. Very sad

 

[RebeccaJ]

Every time LDS explain the next life further it becomes even less appealing if not down right dreary, even awful. It’s just more of the same life we have here, endless power struggle, getting ahead. It’s more like the Hindu cast system than heaven.

When humans build up pantheons of gods, they always include really great stories of power struggles between gods.

 

[Janderich]

First of all, I am responding to a comment attributed to Bruce R. McKonkie, as follows:

May I ask you to just use your reason for one moment. If one must “work out” their salvation then there must be something from which they need to be saved. From what did Jesus need to be saved?

The scriptures tell the truth, “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Cor 15:26). It was not until after his resurrection he declared, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matt 28:18).

SteveVH:

Jesus always had power over his enemies. He is God. He came to save us, not to be saved.

If power is only obtained through our bodies and the devil has no body then we must conclude that the devil has no power, correct? That is patently absurd. If the devil had no power he would not need to be defeated and we would not need a Savior.

Not quite. The devil has a body of spirit. As such he has power. However, it is limited. Those who gain a body of flesh and bones have more power then does the devil.

SteveVH:

So Jesus came to show us how to save ourselves?

Jesus came both to open the door to sinful humanity and to show us the way.

 

[Janderich]

So it is LDS belief that prior to Christ’s incarnation, He, as God, didn’t have power over His enemies?

I can’t speak for all LDS, but let me answer your question. The Son was given the authority and gained the power over all his enemies.

For he “has put everything under his feet” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all" (1 Cor 15:27-28 NIV)

See, the Bible itself proclaims the truth! The Son is subject to the Father. The Father retains power over the Son. The Son, having gained the victory over death, gained all power. The Son then hands over his kingdom to the Father. The power of the Son is simply an extension of the Father’s dominion.

 

[batman1973]

Sounds like “I would rather get a root canal…”.

If it came across that way, I humbly apologize. Even though I have many issues with the Roman Catholic Church doctrine, The Roman Catholic Church teaches at it’s core, the absolute truth of who the Trinity is and Real Presence. None of the Mormon churches do, hence why if given a choice, I would be Roman Catholic before rejoining any of the Latter Day Saint churches (And I belonged to 4 different groups)

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

The scriptures tell the truth, “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” (1 Cor 15:26). It was not until after his resurrection he declared, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth” (Matt 28:18).

That did not answer SteveVH’s question.

Not quite. The devil has a body of spirit. As such he has power. However, it is limited. Those who gain a body of flesh and bones have more power then does the devil.

No, that’s a lie. Flesh and Bone do not make us more powerful than the Devil. There’s
no such thing as a “body of spirit”, that is a fictional idea concocted by Joseph Smith.
The Devil is a spirit, we are spirit, body, & soul. The Devil is incorporeal, not as a pun-
ishment, but because that is what an angel simply is, an incorporeal spirit. I think it’s
also important, since you’re a Mormon, to press the matter that angels and humans
are completely separate creations, apples and oranges, never the same in an imag-
inary pre-existence.

Jesus came both to open the door to sinful humanity and to show us the way.

That is true, but it kinda didn’t answer SteveVH’s question again. Jesus
did open Heaven’s doors to a sinful humanity, and he did come to show
us the way, for he announced:
I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life.
No man comes to the Father, but by me.
– (John 14:6)
Now since you failed to answer SteveVH’s question, let me answer it for you:
YES, Mormons believe that Jesus came to show us
how to save OURSELVES, and that saved by Grace
through Faith is an utter heresy!

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I can’t speak for all LDS, but…

Of course you can’t, because if you did, it would put a rather bad mark on Mormonism.

See, the Bible itself proclaims the truth! The Son is subject to the Father. The Father retains power over the Son. The Son, having gained the victory over death, gained all power. The Son then hands over his kingdom to the Father.

Slow down Mormon, the Son is subject to the Father, yes, but by choice, for the sake of our salvation.
The sad thing, though, is that you say that “Bible itself proclaims the truth!”, however you really do not
have any idea what the Bible is really saying.

Now sad thing for me, I have no idea how to an-
swer this last sentence, can somebody get it? :

The power of the Son is simply an extension of the Father’s dominion.

 

[batman1973]

See, the Bible itself proclaims the truth!.

Huh. That’s odd, cause I remember from the Epitome of Faith:
Joseph Smith:

“We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.”

Which translation is correct? There’s many. I know the Mormon Church uses the King James, but what about Joseph’s “Inspired Version”? then, Brother Joseph went on to claim:

“I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”

(History of the Church, 4:461.)
Sounds to me like the Latter Day and Latter-day Saints don’t put much stock in the Bible after all.