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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
OH!
And if the Book of Mormon is SO correct, “most correct”
proclaims the false prophet, then what’s with all the mul-
tiple changes in the Book of Mormon?
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Janderich
Guest
Of course we are saved by grace through faith! Personal growth, justification, sanctification, even the resurrection come in no other way.
Saved by Grace
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved 2 Ne 10:24
Perfect in Christ through Grace
Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace, sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if **by the grace of God **ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God. And again, **if ye by the grace of God **are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy without spot. Moroni 10:32-33
Justified by Grace, Sanctified by Grace
And we know that justification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true; and we know also,** that sanctification through the grace of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is just and true**, to all those who love and serve God with all their mights, minds, and strength. D&C 20:31-32
Grow in Grace
Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth. Fear not, little children, for you are mine, and I have overcome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath given me; And none of them that my Father hath given me shall be lost. D&C 50:40-42
Receive Father’s Fulness through Grace
For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fullness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace. D&C 93:20
Resurrected by Grace
All these had departed the mortal life, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection, through the grace of God the Father and his Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ. D&C 138:14
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Janderich, what is the definition of grace?
J
Janderich
Guest
Divine assistance or enabling power.
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
BUT…"…for we know that it is by grace that
we are saved, after all we can do."
– (2 Nephi 25:23)AND, what does your apostle say?Now the second greatest heresy in all Christendom is designed
to destroy the glories and wonders of the infinite and eternal atone–
ment. It is that men are saved by some kind of lip service, by
the grace of God, without work and without ef–
fort on their part.
– (The Seven Deadly Heresies; Bruce R. McConkie)
And look at what your prophet did to the Bible:Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the
promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law,
but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all.
– (JST Romans 4:16)
Now listen to what Paul says:For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not
of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; Not of works,
that no man may glory.
– (Ephesians 2:8-9)
Mormons are helpless in escaping the force of their own doctrines, apostles,
and prophets. The most they can do is hide away the incriminating informa–
tion, display instead that which appears Christian, and just hope there aren’t
any Christians smart enough to peer deeper into what Mormonism really is.
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
“Enabling Power,” enabling us to do what? There’s nothing we can do to save ourselves.
In CHRISTIAN theology, grace has been defined as "the **love **and **mercy **given to us by
God because God desires us to have it, **NOT **because of anything we have done to earn
it", "the condescension or benevolence shown by God toward the human race". It is un-
derstood by CHRISTIANS to be a spontaneous gift from God to man – "generous, free
and totally unexpected and undeserved" - that takes the form of divine favor, love,
clemency, and a share in the divine life of God.Sources:
- Our Wesleyan Theological Heritage
- John Hardon, Modern
Catholic Dictionary - ‘Grace’, Komonchak et al (eds), Joseph A (1990).
The New Dictionary of Theology. Dublin: Gill and
Macmillan. p. 437.
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
J
Janderich
Guest
Here is the entire verse, of which you quoted only half, “For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” If we read the whole scripture you can see that it is about reconciling ourselves to Christ. Moreover, Nephi’s statement is not one of temporal separation. It is obvious that we do not work are fingers to the bone until the very end and then Christ steps in. Instead he is with us. He moves us forward, he guides each step. It is only through him that we are saved. Further Nephi says, “wherefore the law hath become dead unto us, and we are made alive in Christ because of our faith; yet we keep the law because of the commandments. And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins” (2 Ne 25:25). Christ is the source, not dead works as Nephi points out.
Judas Thaddeus:
Active faith saves a person. JT, you don’t believe we are saved by lip service do you? When our life here has ended and we stand before Christ, the great judge of all men, do you believe our words alone will make any difference? “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels for I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meet… Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me” (Matt 25:41-42, 45).
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iepuras
Guest
Thank you for providing the Christian definition of grace. Below is the Mormon definition of grace from the Bible Dictionary in the LDS version of the Bible. It is further evidence that Mormons use the same words as Christians but have an entirely different meaning.
“The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ. It is through the grace of the Lord Jesus, made possible by his atoning sacrifice, that mankind will be raised in immortality, every person receiving his body from the grave in a condition of everlasting life. It is likewise through the grace of the Lord that individuals, through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ and repentance of their sins, receive strength and assistance to do good works that they otherwise would not be able to maintain if left to their own means. This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man’s weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence, the explanation, ‘It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do’ (2 Ne. 25:23). It is truly the grace of Christ that makes salvation possible.”
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
I simply quoted the end of that verse because it is that last phrase “after all we can do”
that invalidates Mormonism’s claim of “saved by grace.” If but ONE grain of salt enters
pure water, is it pure water anymore? No, it is not. And Nephi (not that he ever existed)
may have said that the laws were dead, but that was given in the middle (about) of the
6th century BCE, but Christ was not even born yet. How is that relevant? Because the
Law did not die until Jesus fulfilled it. So either way, Nephi is wrong. Cool, yes?
If you go to a homeless shelter to serve soup to the poor (pardon the stereotype scenario),
but you do it because you want to be saved, and you think good works like that will merit
your salvation, that doesn’t count for anything. Consider the criminal on the cross next to
Jesus. What good work has he done to merit his own salvation? Nothing! The only thing
he could do was have faith and profess Jesus as Lord. We know the criminal was saved
though, don’t we?
Mormonism, however, doesn’t buy into such a scenario. Mormons might, but that is not
what their doctrine teaches. Many people will run to Jesus saying, “Lord, Lord!” but did
they have the right beliefs? Did they believe that Christ’s atonement was enough? What
of Grace, is that alone enough to save? Many will think, “Gee, I did so many good stuff
in my life, no way the Lord can reject me,” but some may be in for a big shock.
Now as for what I believe (since you asked): When you (and McConkie) say “lip service,” I can only assume you mean wor-
ship, praise, adoration, etc. Faith which is coupled with such things saves, YES. Works do nothing to save me. I cannot go
and help out the needy and poor and assume that such acts give me any credit before God, for my own works are as to no-
thing in terms of my own salvation. Do you not believe what Paul said? Well no, Paul’s dead, so his words are dead, topped
by whatever your living prophets and apostles say, right? Mormonism belittles Grace.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Thanks. Simply put, graces are gifts of the Holy Spirit.
The enabling power part…has no Christian counterpart. I’m not sure even how to address it.
Other than, our orientation towards God is one of reliance. We are completely reliant on his mercy and love. Our response does not change God’s orientation towards us. God is unchanging.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
Janderich, maybe I misunderstood you, but grace, including saving grace, is not lip service.
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PaulDupre1
Guest
The Christian definition of grace is: a free and unmerited gift from God.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
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Janderich
Guest
The law always pointed to Christ. The whole intent of the law of Moses was to bring people to Christ. However the performances of the law, even when they were first given, were dead. Not even in Old Testament times did the law save a person. Nephi knew this, so he taught his children the right way, “Wherefore, we speak concerning the law that our children may know the deadness of the law; and they, by knowing the deadness of the law, may look forward unto that life which is in Christ, and know for what end the law was given. …And, inasmuch as it shall be expedient, ye must keep the performances and ordinances of God until the law shall be fulfilled which was given unto Moses” (2 Ne 25:27, 30). So you see they kept the law and it was counted as righteousness but it did not save. Just as we today keep our performances and ordinances such as communion or baptism but they of themselves do not save and never will.
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Janderich
Guest
Do we agree on this point? (yikes!) If Christ has given us a portion of grace then we are different and will act different.
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Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Okay, “but the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise, by the faith of Jesus Christ,
might be given to them that believe. But before the faith came, we were kept under the law shut up,
unto that faith which was to be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster in Christ, that we
might be justified by faith. But after the faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
(Galatians 3:22-25)
Besides, the neither the Nephites or the Lamanites kept the Law of Moses any-
way. The Old Testament is littered with examples of Mosaic practice, but never
in Ancient America was this done by any group of people. Joseph knew nothing
about the Law of Moses, so the Book of Mormon in turn also knew nothing.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
I never know if I agree with you or not, since all things Mormon are kinda slippery.
This statement, what I find slippery is “portion of grace”, and whether or not there is an understanding in LDS teaching of what it means to discern.
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RebeccaJ
Guest
The OT people did not know of Jesus. The Law was intended to make God’s chosen people righteous before God. The Law prefigures Jesus and Jesus is the fulfillment of the Law. We are made righteous in him, with him and through him.
I don’t agree that God made a dead covenant.
An odd view, I’ll say that.
I think we’re defining what salvation means, differently.
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philv
Guest
I think the best way is to not convert someone with words - this verse says that, etc., but rather by our lifestyle. Pope Francis didn’t influence the world through quoting the bible nonstop, but rather his lifestyle and simple reasoning was noteworthy. Reasoning through philosophy based on scripture is something hardly ever prepared for either, and it can help change error thinking or to think in new ways. What did Paul do in Greece? He didn’t go bible-thumping on them, but he talked about the alter dedicated to an unnamed deity. Although scripture is equally important too, we just simply forgot how to have a good discussion with convincing lifestyles, and I’m among the “this verse says that” people. We need to show them why we believe it with joy and superb reasoning people can relate to.
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