Responding to a Protestant Claim about the Eucharist

[steve_b]

Full Question
catholic.com/qa/where-in-the-new-testament-are-priests-mentioned

The New Testament mentions three categories of Church leaders: bishops, presbyters, and deacons. So how can the Catholic Church justify its office of “priest”? The New Testament writers seem to understand “bishop” and “presbyter” to be synonymous terms for the same office (Acts 20:17-38).

**BISHOPS [Douay Bible] **
1 Tim 3: 1,2
Titus 1:3
1 Pet. 2:25

DEACON [RSV Bible]
Rom 16:1
Phil 1:1
1 Tim 3:8, 10, 12, 13

PRIEST; [presbyter[/COLOR]]
Answer
The English word “priest” is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as “elder” or “presbyter.” The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the**** New Testament (Acts 15:6, 23)****. The Bible says little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a priestly capacity.

They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Tm 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Tm 5:17), and they d administered sacraments (Jas 5:13-15). These are the essential functions of the priestly office, so 8, 10, 12, 13wherever the various forms of presbuteros appear–except, of course, in instances which pertain to the Jewish elders (Mt 21:23, Acts 4:23)–the word may rightly be translated as “priest” instead of “elder” or "presbyter.’ END QUOTES

a great link

I’ve also used that link in the past

 

[steve_b]

Hi stev,

The opposing view ,what we were talking about, is that of early church writers saying bishop and presbyter were interchangeable.

Ah, now I get it.

The reason it was interchangeable is because bishops are also priests as well. However, a priest is not always a bishop. We actually see that as early as the writing of Bp Clement of Rome in ~80 a.d. and also Bp Ignatius writings
b:

Understand that the CC teaches the Last Supper was a command for priests, as the apostles were there as office holders.

I feel that is an assumption. For sure then we must discern every time Jesus told the apostles to do something, whether it was only for ordained or laity…So for example , is foot washing only for ordained, and feeding sheep only for ordained,etc .Then what are we disciples for ? What is the end of our maturity? Not to do what our spiritual fathers do ?

Thanks for the ability to explain
You know me benhur, I’m all about references. I don’t expect anyone to take my word for anything. After all who am I?

Did you miss the 2 links I gave that explained the point I was making?

• "Do this" τε
• #[6 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13753233&postcount=6)

b:

Yet of course there are offices, giftings. Just have not seen in scripture setting aside of presiding over rites, not for mature, spirit filled Christians , but for ordained Christians only.

Blessings.

, again glad to have the opportunity to explain

Re: your point about the scriptures don’t identify (presiding over rites, not for mature, spirit filled Christians , but for ordained Christians only.)

I would just say,

Besides what was previously posted

• "Do this" τε
• #[6 (http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=13753233&postcount=6)

here’s another example

Paul to Bp Titus.

[Titus 3:10 (Titus 3:10 RSVCE - As for a man who is factious, after - Bible Gateway)
"As for a man who is factious ( [α (http://bibleapps.com/greek/141.htm)**ἱρετικὸ**ν** heretic ),** after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is perverted and sinful; he is self-condemned."

Just a comment here.

Factious is the English translation in the translation I used. But heretic is what the word is in Greek from the Greek NT.

To which one might ask… define heretic (see definition of heresy from the CCC )

**"*Heresy ***is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same;

Again one might comment, I don’t see the name “Catholic” or “Catholic Church” in scripture

In my previous post I wrote

The only Church Jesus established is the Catholic Church and the proof is there, with references all properly referenced. #34

it is “the pillar and foundation of truth”. 1 Timothy 3:15 ,

So to your points,

Paul said to Bp Titus, if one won’t follow THE CHURCH, (the only Church that’s there, the Catholic Church) and follow what it teaches, then they are already self condemned.

Paul’s words said another way, apart from the Catholic Church there is no salvation.

BTW, the Catholic Church gave us the NT, it was written in, by, for the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church gave us the canon of scripture (73 books) in 382 at the council of Rome

Blessings benhur

 

[MartinJordan]

I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life. -St. Ignatius of Antioch

Source: newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm

Not exactly contextual for this thread but I think it’s a safe bet St. Ignatius of Antioch is clear about what the Bread and wine is. As if it is already understood as the real Flesh and Blood of Jesus.

MJ

 

[rcwitness]

I desire the bread of God, the heavenly bread, the bread of life, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became afterwards of the seed of David and Abraham; and I desire the drink of God, namely His blood, which is incorruptible love and eternal life. -St. Ignatius of Antioch

Source: newadvent.org/fathers/0107.htm

Not exactly contextual for this thread but I think it’s a safe bet St. Ignatius of Antioch is clear about what the Bread and wine is. As if it is already understood as the real Flesh and Blood of Jesus.

MJ

He says “which is incorruptible love and eternal life”

The symbolic communion party will always have “a symbolic” interpretation. And that is because His real flesh and blood is one and the same with His Spirit. And God is Spirit. And God is love.

So it goes around in circles. What is more significant (or more objective) is what constitutes a valid Eucharist. I’m not sure what the symbolic communion party uses as to determine what a valid communion is. Im not sure they are concerned. Why would they be? That would be a good thread question.

All I know, is that every individual I ask, says that any Christian is able to serve/celebrate/hold the Lord’s Supper. There is no need for an ordained leader. But when asked if they have (or even would feel comfortable hosting) the Lord’s Supper, the answer has been no.

 

[MartinJordan]

He says “which is incorruptible love and eternal life”

The symbolic communion party will always have “a symbolic” interpretation. And that is because His real flesh and blood is one and the same with His Spirit. And God is Spirit. And God is love. So it goes around in circles.

In John 6 The crowd came looking for Jesus because earlier Jesus did the miracle of the bread.

So In John 6 : 27 - 28 Jesus wants to make it clearer where his going with the eternal life discourse.

Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal.” 28

But It was the crowd that wanted more : 29 They said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Then the crowd went even further for more clarification : 30 So they said to him, “What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

Isn’t it interesting the crowd were still not satisfied they wanted even more clarification?

What is more significant (or more objective) is what constitutes a valid Eucharist. I’m not sure what the symbolic communion party uses as to determine what a valid communion is. Im not sure they are concerned. Why would they be? That would be a good thread question.

All I know, is that every individual I ask, says that any Christian is able to serve/celebrate/hold the Lord’s Supper. There is no need for an ordained leader. But when asked if they have (or even would feel comfortable hosting) the Lord’s Supper, the answer has been no.

MJ

 

[PJM]

In John 6 The crowd came looking for Jesus because earlier Jesus did the miracle of the bread.

So In John 6 : 27 - 28 Jesus wants to make it clearer where his going with the eternal life discourse.

Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures for eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For it is on him that God the Father has set his seal.” 28

But It was the crowd that wanted more : 29 They said to him, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Then the crowd went even further for more clarification : 30 So they said to him, “What sign are you going to give us then, so that we may see it and believe you? What work are you performing? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’”

Isn’t it interesting the crowd were still not satisfied they wanted even more clarification?



MJ

And then there is THIS

John.6 Verses 47 to 58

[47] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
[48] I am the bread of life.
[49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
[50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
[52] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
[53] So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
[57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
[58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

GBY

Patrick

 

[Wannano]

And then there is THIS

John.6 Verses 47 to 58

[47] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
[48] I am the bread of life.
[49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
[50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
[52] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
[53] So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
[57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
[58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

GBY

Patrick

Having all these verses in condensed form on the screen is helpful. One question I have with taking a completely literary interpretation of these verses is why do Catholics die?

 

[MartinJordan]

And then there is THIS

John.6 Verses 47 to 58

[47] Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.
[48] I am the bread of life.
[49] Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died.
[50] This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die.
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."
[52] The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
[53] So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you;
[54] he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
[57] As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me.
[58] This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

GBY

Patrick

Two things I’d like to say here :

1}the Jews Started to dispute among themselves. Why?

1. Jesus then spoke then of His Blood. Why again go further from flesh alone then include blood too?

MJ

 

[MartinJordan]

Having all these verses in condensed form on the screen is helpful. One question I have with taking a completely literary interpretation of these verses is why do Catholics die?

Not sure what is being asked. These are not interpretations but words from the Lord himself.

MJ

 

[rcwitness]

Having all these verses in condensed form on the screen is helpful. One question I have with taking a completely literary interpretation of these verses is why do Catholics die?

I assume you mean literal? And if so, I do not believe a completely literal interpretation is accurate. But that Jesus is both the Word of God and human flesh! So, we don’t receive only His flesh and blood, but the Spirit that was given in abundance through His flesh and blood. Again, not only through His flesh and blood does the Spirit move, but in fullness and as the means for the Father to grant life to all, His flesh and blood was necessary. If it were not for the Flesh and Blood of Jesus, we would not be given the Holy Spirit.

As we say in the creed:
“… We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son…”

 

[Wannano]

Not sure what is being asked. These are not interpretations but words from the Lord himself.

MJ

Ok thanks, maybe I need to explain my thoughts more clearly. Jesus said He is the Bread come down from heaven and he who eats this bread will never die. He explains it is not the literal bread which was called manna that the ancestors ate and then died. In the first verse mentioned he already had said that whoever believes on Him hath eternal life. To believe in Him is to partake of Him or symbolically “eat” Him. Those who believe in Him whose words give spiritual food and sustentance will live forever eternally. These are His words and to understand them to mean literally eat His flesh and blood and then in the same sentence “not die” should literally mean not die as the ancestors died. How can we understand one part of the sentence to be literal and the other part to be figurative as in meaning spiritual death and not physical death?

 

[Wannano]

I assume you mean literal? And if so, I do not believe a completely literal interpretation is accurate. But that Jesus is both the Word of God and human flesh! So, we don’t receive only His flesh and blood, but the Spirit that was given in abundance through His flesh and blood. Again, not only through His flesh and blood does the Spirit move, but in fullness and as the means for the Father to grant life to all, His flesh and blood was necessary. If it were not for the Flesh and Blood of Jesus, we would not be given the Holy Spirit.

As we say in the creed:
“… We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father and the Son…”

Yes, sorry I meant literal.

 

[rcwitness]

Ok thanks, maybe I need to explain my thoughts more clearly. Jesus said He is the Bread come down from heaven and he who eats this bread will never die. He explains it is not the literal bread which was called manna that the ancestors ate and then died. In the first verse mentioned he already had said that whoever believes on Him hath eternal life. To believe in Him is to partake of Him or symbolically “eat” Him. Those who believe in Him whose words give spiritual food and sustentance will live forever eternally. These are His words and to understand them to mean literally eat His flesh and blood and then in the same sentence “not die” should literally mean not die as the ancestors died. How can we understand one part of the sentence to be literal and the other part to be figurative as in meaning spiritual death and not physical death?

Yes, that’s why He speaks of His Spirit and His flesh and blood sacrifice which would be accomplished at Calvary, and given through the Lord’s Supper.

We already believe the Lord’s Spirit gives life. That much is agreed. But what made it possible for man to receive the Holy Spirit without merit in it? First, it is the Father who beckons and calls us to His Son. Second, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts, converts, and gives understanding. Third, it is His Holy Eucharist which sustain, nourishes and brings us together. Baptism, is part of the initiation into this life. It is the forgiveness merited by Christ’s power over the flesh, and incorporation into the Body who is called to the one table, one bread, and one faith.

 

[Wannano]

Yes, that’s why He speaks of His Spirit and His flesh and blood sacrifice which would be accomplished at Calvary, and given through the Lord’s Supper.

We already believe the Lord’s Spirit gives life. That much is agreed. But what made it possible for man to receive the Holy Spirit without merit in it? First, it is the Father who beckons and calls us to His Son. Second, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts, converts, and gives understanding. Third, it is His Holy Eucharist which sustain, nourishes and brings us together. Baptism, is part of the initiation into this life. It is the forgiveness merited by Christ’s power over the flesh, and incorporation into the Body who is called to the one table, one bread, and one faith.

You have eloquently expressed the Catholic position very well and also side stepped my question very effectively!

 

[steve_b]

Having all these verses in condensed form on the screen is helpful. One question I have with taking a completely literary interpretation of these verses is** why do Catholics die**?

It’s a different death we’re talking about

1 Pet 3: 18 For Christ also died*(“1 Peter 3 RSVCE - Wives and Husbands - Likewise you - Bible Gateway”)] for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah,…"*

Q: one might ask, how can Jesus preach to the dead “since Noah” if they are dead in the sense we know death, unless their souls are alive and can understand and process what He is preaching? The soul doesn’t die as the body dies. The soul is immortal the body is mortal. The body lives, and it dies. Not so with the soul. From conception God gives us a soul that is immortal. It lives forever with memory intellect and will .

BTW, Jesus didn’t go to preach to the damned. The hell of the damned there is no chance of getting out. Jesus went to the souls who weren’t damned.

When we die, (all of us)
the soul separates from the body and we are Judged. The soul then goes on to reward (heaven) or punishment (hell}. If final purification is required (Purgatory) happens then after purification the soul enters heave. Purgatory is NOT a second chance. It’s only for the soul who is saved but needs final purification

At death, both existences, whichever one is in, a person is fully aware of their existence.

At the end of the world whenever that is, all the people who have ever lived and died are raised.

• If the soul is in heaven, then body and soul are reunited in heaven forever
• if the soul is in hell, then body and soul are reunited in hell forever
• Purgatory ceases to exist because there will be no more births or deaths.

God eternalizes the person’s direction they were going in at death. If they are apart from God due to mortal sin at death, they go immediately to hell to suffer eternal punishment.

If they die in a state of grace, then they go to heaven

 

[Wannano]

It’s a different death we’re talking about

1 Pet 3: 18 For Christ also died**(“1 Peter 3 RSVCE - Wives and Husbands - Likewise you - Bible Gateway”)] for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited in the days of Noah,…"

Q: one might ask, how can Jesus preach to the dead “since Noah” if they are dead in the sense we know death, unless their souls are alive and can understand and process what He is preaching? The soul doesn’t die as the body dies. The soul is immortal the body is mortal. The body lives, and it dies. Not so with the soul. From conception God gives us a soul that is immortal. It lives forever with memory intellect and will .

BTW, Jesus didn’t go to preach to the damned. The hell of the damned there is no chance of getting out. Jesus went to the souls who weren’t damned.

When we die, (all of us)
the soul separates from the body and we are Judged. The soul then goes on to reward (heaven) or punishment (hell}. If final purification is required (Purgatory) happens then after purification the soul enters heave. Purgatory is NOT a second chance. It’s only for the soul who is saved but needs final purification

At death, both existences, whichever one is in, a person is fully aware of their existence.

At the end of the world whenever that is, all the people who have ever lived and died are raised.

• If the soul is in heaven, then body and soul are reunited in heaven forever
• if the soul is in hell, then body and soul are reunited in hell forever
• Purgatory ceases to exist because there will be no more births or deaths.

God eternalizes the person’s direction they were going in at death. If they are apart from God due to mortal sin at death, they go immediately to hell to suffer eternal punishment.

If they die in a state of grace, then they go to heaven

Ok, thanks. What do the words “not die” mean in John 6:50?

 

[steve_b]

Ok thanks, maybe I need to explain my thoughts more clearly. Jesus said He is the Bread come down from heaven and he who eats this bread will never die. He explains it is not the literal bread which was called manna that the ancestors ate and then died. In the first verse mentioned he already had said that whoever believes on Him hath eternal life. To believe in Him is to partake of Him or symbolically “eat” Him. Those who believe in Him whose words give spiritual food and sustentance will live forever eternally. These are His words and to understand them to mean literally eat His flesh and blood and then in the same sentence “not die” should literally mean not die as the ancestors died. How can we understand one part of the sentence to be literal and the other part to be figurative as in meaning spiritual death and not physical death?

Just to add what I just posted #212

Jn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless** you** eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

When Jesus says "Truly Truly I say to you UNLESS…

"Unless" makes that a conditional statement. It means that what follows is a command not a suggestion, it must be done or else.

 

[Wannano]

Just to add what I just posted #212

Jn 6:53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless** you** eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.”

When Jesus says "Truly Truly I say to you UNLESS…

"Unless" makes that a conditional statement. It means that what follows is a command not a suggestion, it must be done or else.

Yes, and in the first verse He says "truly, truly, he that believes in me has eternal life.

 

[steve_b]

Ok, thanks. What do the words “not die” mean in John 6:50?

Hell is considered eternal death of the soul. Not that the soul is dead like we think of death, but that the soul is completely absent grace.

And in the next life there is no clock. No seconds, minutes, hours, days , weeks, months, years, eons etc, it’s just the eternal now. A trillion years from now in our understanding of time, is just now. 10 trillion years from now is just now. There is no past present future, it’s just now. And a person in hell knows they have no hope of ever getting out

A person who dies in the flesh, in the state of grace, while the body dies, the soul who is graced will be in heaven forever. They don’t die as Jesus is talking about death

 

[Wannano]

1. 
   

   Hell is considered eternal death of the soul. Not that the soul is dead like we think of death, but that the soul is completely absent grace.
   
   And in the next life there is no clock. No seconds, minutes, hours, days , weeks, months, years, eons etc, it’s just the eternal now. A trillion years from now in our understanding of time, is just now. 10 trillion years from now is just now. There is no past present future, it’s just now. And a person in hell knows they have no hope of ever getting out

   Agreed. So you agree with me that in the referenced verses of John 6, Jesus was talking not of literal physical death when He said “not die.”