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steve_b
Guest
Believes means a whole lot of obedience to what He is teaching. Otherwise if one doesn’t do what Jesus commands, and instead does what THEY want to do, one really can’t claim they believe…
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steve_b
Guest
I didn’t even suggest that.
EVERYBODY dies in the flesh. It’s one for one. Unless by some miracle one escapes physical death.
It’s the soul that doesn’t die. It is immortal. There are only 2 eternal destinations after this life
*]Heaven
*]Hell
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benhur
Guest
Hi steve,
Thank you for your view, but kindly disagree. That is not interchangeable. Interchangeable is where a presbyter is a bishop and bishop a presbyter.
Again, Ignatius is one writing, but I gave you others that describe before that , and as found in writ that have them interchangeable. But agree, Ignatius would seem not to…
The greek word for “do” as in “do in remembrance of Me” is usually translated to "do’’ as in perform and not “make” as you suggest.
You do give the definition of "do’’ as either “make” or “do”, but I would suggest most translations choose do and not make.
Blessings
B
benhur
Guest
Hi W,
Agree . The dying is a spiritual reference, so is the eating a spiritual reference also, ,and not physically literal. As one father has written, leave your teeth and bellies behind , to eating jesus in John ch6.
Blessings
PS- my thought is that NT folk do die differently spiritually speaking, at least as far as destination. The saved to Hades or Abraham’s Bosom in OT, and now heaven in NT, now that propitiation has been met by Calvary, the gates of heaven open. Otherwise , Christ would be suggesting *all *that died in the desert went to gehenna hell, the place of torture , and will die the second death. Not sure they were all damned (not saved) that died in the desert.
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Wannano
Guest
A whole lot of obedience and a willingness to make Him Lord and Master, allowing Him to live in us every moment.
W
Wannano
Guest
Your answer here does not make sense to me. I take it you are agreeing with me. Jesus was talking of spiritual death not physical death.
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steve_b
Guest
catholic.com/qa/where-in-the-new-testament-are-priests-mentioned
that link discusses both priest and bishop in the NT and the Greek words for each that ultimately are the terms defining both
What I said I quoted and gave the links. This is NOT my opinion or my suggestion.
b:
Did you see that it also refers to ordination, and many other explanations?
When the priest consecrates bread and wine, then after consecration the elements are no longer just bread and wine any longer. There is a HUGE difference after consecration. Bread and wine are now Jesus body blood soul and divinity under the appearances of bread and wine.
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steve_b
Guest
Maybe I wasn’t clear before. Yes, spiritual death is hell. Spiritual life is heaven
But as I said before, death of the soul isn’t like we understand death of the body. Death of the soul is a soul without grace. That soul will spend eternity in hell at the death of the body
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Wannano
Guest
W
Wannano
Guest
I believe we are saying the same thing.
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PJM
Guest
There’s a short answer to this and a longer more profound answer:
Here is the short one, if you desire more please let me know.
As a Christian I suspect you understand and accept that we{ALL od us} are to emulate Jesus.
Jesus became a moral man like us in every way BUT sin; DIED a human death [except for his human Soul], in order to Rise AGAIN unto Eternal Glory.
Isaiah 43 teaches and confirms that LIFE IS “The GOD Test”
Isa.43: [7] every one who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made." & [21] the people whom I formed for myself** that they might declare my praise**
Notice the key word:" MIGHT"
It;s God’s desire [1 Tim 2: 3-5], BUT our choices that determine where we will spend Eternity: In Glory with Jesus or in hell with Satan.
So Catholic die to ATTAIN there JUST reward, in emulation of Jesus the Christ! This is the fulfillment of both HOW and WHY we [humanity ALONE] can and DO emulate our God. Gen 1:26-27 verses John 4:23-24
Further explanation is available if you desire it?
GBY
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
GREAT QUESTION!
Thanks for asking it.
As for the Jews arguing among themselves:
The isse was for SOME [a lack of faith] seen as cannibalism BUT by others IN FAITH granted by the HS, not understood; YET Jesus was accepted at HIS WORD based on FAITH, Hope and Love.
LOOK at these following passages
[65] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.
66] And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. [67] After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. [68] **Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? [69] And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. **[70] And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
NOTICE He didn’t further clarify this for them; ONLY asked do YOU wish to desert ME too?
[71] Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil? [72] Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve"
So Faith and with it RIGHT understanding can ONLY come as granted by God, on His initiative AND OUR WILLING acceptance and desire to KNOW the [always singular TRUTH.]
It is the GLORIFIED {Risen} Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus that is PRESENT in the Most Holy Eucharist; not his corporal body. TIME is in nonexistent for God, Everything is PRESENT-time
That is the difference between human logic and Divine reality:thumbsup: In FAITH verses unbelief. “Because I can’t understand it; it CAN"T be true” … How foolish.
Eucharist is a Mystery and a miracle
Are we to presume God cannot do this?GOD can do ANY good thing!
And permitting HIS priest to make HIM Present to us is the GREATEST possible Good thing possible on earth. PERIOD! AMEN
God Bless you
Patrick
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PJM
Guest
OPPS:blush:
I forgot to address your second point.
In Transubstantiation & the consecration; it is done in TWO parts
First the host [His body] [actually the entire Jesus is PRESENT in Both species and in EVERY part of both species
Then AGAIN separately in the wine [now His Blood]
This is to make evident that Christ did DIE and that His blood was separated from his body so that we CAN know that it is NOW His GLORIFIED Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity that we receive.
The symbolism of both body AND blood is the knowledge that we receive the ENTIRE Jesus Christ:thumbsup: of the LIVING Jesus.
tend to
cannibalism would separate the blood from the flesh
GBY
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steve_b
Guest
Easy to say
I say the following in all charity. (all links are operational)
If Jesus really IS Lord of one’s life,
For example
- they will be in His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. #34 That’s the only Church He established and gave all His promises to. In Context , Matthew 18:17 He wants His people to be one in His Church as He and His Father are one. John 17:20-23 Non Catholics are NOT Catholics and NOT** in **His Church
- What are the consequences for division? All divisions from His Church no matter the stripe, is condemned in scripture, as are those who do it if they die in separation. I’m stunned how people who claim to be scripture alone,so easily dismiss that warning as not applying to them. That is why scripture teaches, outside of His Church there is no salvation.
- Romans 16:17-20 (links on division are operational)
Now I beseech you, brethren, to mark them who make dissensions **διχοστασίας ** and offences contrary to the doctrine which you have learned, and avoid them. For they that are such, serve not Christ our Lord, but their own belly; and by pleasing speeches and good words, seduce the hearts of the innocent. For your obedience is published in every place. I rejoice therefore in you. But I would have you to be wise in good, and simple in evil. And the God of peace crush Satan under your feet speedily. The
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, Idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, διχοστασίας ** sects, Envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.**
- **Greek NT was used for those Greek words
** - One can’t deliberately miss Mass (Eucharist) on Sunday or they commit Mortal sin. #[22 (https://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=12759634&postcount=22) If one dies in mortal sin they descend immediately to hell.
- Mortal sin is forgiven in the sacrament of reconciliation.In Context One should not think they can skip the sacrament and instead depend on prayer, and making what they think is a perfect contrition for the forgiveness of their mortal sin(s). the reason for that is .1 John 5:16
- Catholics, lapsed Catholics, Catholics who left the Church, and non Catholics who were never in the Church
In Context , In Context
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steve_b
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Vico
Guest
To say “they will be in His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church” is not accurate, but the following is true:
Christ “established here on earth” only one Church and instituted it as a “visible and spiritual community” … This Church, constituted and organised in this world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church
“the Church of Christ is present and operative in the churches and ecclesial Communities not yet fully in communion with the Catholic Church, on account of the elements of sanctification and truth that are present in them”.
[6] Cf. Second Vatican Council, Decree Unitatis redintegratio, 3.2; 3.4; 3.5; 4.6.
[7] Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution, Lumen gentium, 8.2
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html.
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steve_b
Guest
Vico,
#231 said,
and I’ll highlight in red that sentence in continuing thought
If Jesus really IS Lord of one’s life,
For example
they will be in His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church
As you can see, It’s designed as a conditional statement. I see I could have made it clearer by inserting “Then” in front of “they” but at the time I didn’t think it necessary
It should have read
Then, they will be in His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.
IOW, they won’t remain where they are now, but would be in (join) Our Lord’s Church.*** if Jesus really is Lord of their life.***
Thanks for the heads up, I’ll try and be clearer next time
V:
From that doc.
FIFTH QUESTION Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of “Church” with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?
RESPONSE
According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense[20].
I could have been clearer on my post #231
I did refer to those divided communities, and the consequences for one’s soul if division continues
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rcwitness
Guest
Hey my good friend. Thanks, and sorry that I didn’t specifically address that point. If I might pose a request for you also, could you give me your thoughts on my post #201?You have eloquently expressed the Catholic position very well and also side stepped my question very effectively!
I’d like to ask you, if you believe that you, with fellow Christians, have ever, or would ever feel comfortable, hosting the Lord’s Supper (in your home for example)?
The argument of their only being the general priesthood of all believers, without a ministerial priesthood set apart to offer Sacraments, asserts that each Christian member is able to host and celebrate the Lord’s Supper apart from any appointed Minister, right?
Then, I’d be happy to give my thoughts about Jesus’ comments about the Father’s eating the Manna, yet dying, yet if they eat of the Bread Jesus will give, they shall live forever.
PS. I’m not threatening…
…I just wanted to ask your thoughts, and need to ponder your question some. I suppose either way I will try to share my thoughts.
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Vico
Guest
Those are good clarifications. There also are non-Catholic saints.Vico,
#231 said,
and I’ll highlight in red that sentence in continuing thought
If Jesus really IS Lord of one’s life,
For example
they will be in His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church
As you can see, It’s designed as a conditional statement. I see I could have made it clearer by inserting “Then” in front of “they” but at the time I didn’t think it necessary
It should have read
Then, they will be in His One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.
IOW, they won’t remain where they are now, but would be in (join) Our Lord’s Church.*** if Jesus really is Lord of their life.***
Thanks for the heads up, I’ll try and be clearer next time
From that doc.
FIFTH QUESTION Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of “Church” with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?
RESPONSE
According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery[19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense[20].
I could have been clearer on my post #231
I did refer to those divided communities, and the consequences for one’s soul if division continues
It can happen that ignorance that the full truth subsists only in the Catholic Church can continue throughout the lifetime of a non-Catholic Christian, even for the faithful in a state of grace, such as Orthodox or others. One statement on ecumenical dialogue by Cardinal Walter Kasper is on imposition:
In a dialogue I do not want and am not permitted to impose anything on anybody against their will and conviction. It is the same with missionary activities. Since the beginning of Christianity it has been strictly forbidden to christen anybody against their will. This implies also the exclusion of material promises and gifts as a means of mission. Mission also excludes proselytism.
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/card-kasper-docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20030227_ecumenical-dialogue_en.html
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Very good. Thanks so much Patrick.GREAT QUESTION!
Thanks for asking it.
As for the Jews arguing among themselves:
The isse was for SOME [a lack of faith] seen as cannibalism BUT by others IN FAITH granted by the HS, not understood; YET Jesus was accepted at HIS WORD based on FAITH, Hope and Love.
LOOK at these following passages
[65] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning, who they were that did not believe, and who he was, that would betray him.
66] And he said: Therefore did I say to you, that no man can come to me, unless it be given him by my Father. [67] After this many of his disciples went back; and walked no more with him. [68] **Then Jesus said to the twelve: Will you also go away? [69] And Simon Peter answered him: Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. **[70] And we have believed and have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
NOTICE He didn’t further clarify this for them; ONLY asked do YOU wish to desert ME too?
[71] Jesus answered them: Have not I chosen you twelve; and one of you is a devil? [72] Now he meant Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon: for this same was about to betray him, whereas he was one of the twelve"
So Faith and with it RIGHT understanding can ONLY come as granted by God, on His initiative AND OUR WILLING acceptance and desire to KNOW the [always singular TRUTH.]
It is the GLORIFIED {Risen} Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus that is PRESENT in the Most Holy Eucharist; not his corporal body. TIME is in nonexistent for God, Everything is PRESENT-time
That is the difference between human logic and Divine reality:thumbsup: In FAITH verses unbelief. “Because I can’t understand it; it CAN"T be true” … How foolish.
Eucharist is a Mystery and a miracle
GOD can do ANY good thing!
And permitting HIS priest to make HIM Present to us is the GREATEST possible Good thing possible on earth. PERIOD! AMEN
God Bless you
Patrick
It is clear that Jesus spoke to the crowd with love by answering their further prying, yet it was not enough. So Jesus sees the hardness of their hearts and did not ask that particular crowd to come back to him. As the Truth was too much for their thoughts of their flesh so to speak.
No wonder he then mentioned about the flesh counts for nothing and it is the Spirit that gives life.
Thanks again.
MJ
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