Responding to: I get nothing out of the Latin Mass

[dadude]

Hello,
So tonight I just happened to be wearing my better in Latin tee shirt and I had a friend of mine start to kind of question the whole Latin mass and what it is all about and why it is so great compared to mass in the vernacular. He brought up the whole idea that getting something out of the mass is important and too pointed out that he gets nothing out of the Latin mass. I continued on by asking what the purpose of mass is and he responded with well to hear the readings and receive Jesus in the Eucharist. I responded with no, the purpose of the mass is to worship God. And it went on from there but I wish not to get into the full discussion.

How do you respond to this argument I am sure you have all heard it before.

Along with this the argument of well I don’t understand it came up I responded with, “It’s a mystery – if you know everything that’s going on, something is wrong.”

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

You seem to have hit the main point: we’re there to worship God, not reap rewards.

My initial response would probably have been: “Perhaps you’re not putting enough in.”

 

[kleary]

Hello,
So tonight I just happened to be wearing my better in Latin tee shirt and I had a friend of mine start to kind of question the whole Latin mass and what it is all about and why it is so great compared to mass in the vernacular. He brought up the whole idea that getting something out of the mass is important and too pointed out that he gets nothing out of the Latin mass. I continued on by asking what the purpose of mass is and he responded with well to hear the readings and receive Jesus in the Eucharist. I responded with no, the purpose of the mass is to worship God. And it went on from there but I wish not to get into the full discussion.

How do you respond to this argument I am sure you have all heard it before.

Along with this the argument of well I don’t understand it came up I responded with, “It’s a mystery – if you know everything that’s going on, something is wrong.”

Well the purpuse of the Mass is for the priest to offer the Holy Sacrifice to the Holy Trinity in reparation for the sins of the living and dead. That is one thing to say to counter him. See if what he sees on Sunday lives up to that.

Ken

 

[John_Higgins]

The Mass is the Mass. But, the purpose is to worship God through the sacrifice presided over by our priest. We do this by our sacrifice and his being acceptable to God the Father Almighty. We do this through the readings and the Eucharist.

I guess the TLM is a lot like an opera–you need a libretto. Good enough, I prefer my sung music and my Masses in my native tongue.

John

 

[Andreas_Hofer]

In light of John’s preference, I want to clarify that my comment about needing to put more in should be read to apply to all complaints of not getting enough out of any form of Eucharistic liturgy.

 

[Yerusalyim]

It’s hard to worship when you don’t understand the words being used to worship. The mass is NOT the sacrafice of the priest alone, it’s the sacrafice and celebration of the congregation as well, that’s why now days they require a priest, in most circumstances, to have a congregation when offering the mass.

 

[saint_rafael]

It’s hard to worship when you don’t understand the words being used to worship. The mass is NOT the sacrafice of the priest alone, it’s the sacrafice and celebration of the congregation as well, that’s why now days they require a priest, in most circumstances, to have a congregation when offering the mass.

That’ s wrong. It is the priest ALONE who offers up sacrafice because of his status of Alter Christus. He alone has the supernatural powers and mark on his soul that makes him ontologically different from any other human being.

The Laity ASSIST at Mass. They are there to repent for sin, offer thanksgiving, and recieve the sacrament of the Eucharist.

Priest have private Masses every day. Priests have been celebrating Masses by themselves for centuries. One only needs a valid priest for Mass.

 

[Unitas]

It’s hard to worship when you don’t understand the words being used to worship.

It’s called a missal. And it used to be quite common for Catholics to have them.

There’s no excuse not to know what is being said.

 

[Yerusalyim]

There is an ENORMOUS difference in reading something and praying it…not all people CAN read…not all people can read quickly enough to keep up with the spoken word…so no, a missal with a translation is not sufficient for devotion. When people UNDERSTAND the spoken word of the priest it adds to their worship. Our unity is in Christ, not in a language.

That’ s wrong. It is the priest ALONE who offers up sacrafice because of his status of Alter Christus. He alone has the supernatural powers and mark on his soul that makes him ontologically different from any other human being.

The Laity ASSIST at Mass. They are there to repent for sin, offer thanksgiving, and recieve the sacrament of the Eucharist.

Priest have private Masses every day. Priests have been celebrating Masses by themselves for centuries. One only needs a valid priest for Mass.

No, THAT is wrong. Yes, the priest stands in the person of Christ, HOWEVER, what does the Church say about the liturgy?
This from the CCC 1136 etal

Liturgy is an “action” of the whole Christ (Christus totus).

It is the whole community, the Body of Christ united with its Head, that celebrates. "Liturgical services are not private functions but are celebrations of the Church which is ‘the sacrament of unity,’ namely, the holy people united and organized under the authority of the bishops.

The celebrating assembly is the community of the baptized who, "by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are consecrated to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood, that through all the works of Christian men they may offer spiritual sacrifices."9 This “common priesthood” is that of Christ the sole priest, in which all his members participate:10

Mother Church earnestly desires that all the faithful should be led to that full, conscious, and active participation in liturgical celebrations which is demanded by the very nature of the liturgy, and to which the Christian people, “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a redeemed people,” have a right and an obligation by reason of their Baptism.11

In the celebration of the sacraments it is thus the whole assembly that is leitourgos, each according to his function, but in the “unity of the Spirit” who acts in all. "In liturgical celebrations each person, minister or layman, who has an office to perform, should carry out all and only those parts which pertain to his office by the nature of the rite and the norms of the liturgy."15

And finally, Canon Law itself:

Can. 906 Except for a just and reasonable cause, a priest is not to celebrate the eucharistic sacrifice without the participation of at least some member of the faithful.

So celebration without the laity is an EXCEPTION, not the norm, and even then, the priest is acting in unity with the WHOLE of the Body of Christ.

 

[Yerusalyim]

On a humorous side note, someone once got me a subscription to “Latin Mass” magazine, I found it hilarious that the publication was in English.

Seriously folks, there is a place for the Latin Mass and I’m glad the TLM is making a comeback, but I don’t think it should be the norm.

 

[Unitas]

There is an ENORMOUS difference in reading something and praying it…not all people CAN read…not all people can read quickly enough to keep up with the spoken word…so no, a missal with a translation is not sufficient for devotion. When people UNDERSTAND the spoken word of the priest it adds to their worship. Our unity is in Christ, not in a language.

A missal had been sufficient for how many centuries? And now just because you say it isn’t, it’s not? Yeah, ok.

So I guess all rites of the Church have been wrong for centuries by keeping their liturgies in their traditional tongues. Good thing we have Yerusalyim here to set the Church straight.

And if people are so illiterate that they cannot keep up with the liturgy, that is a problem with education, not the Church. It is up to them to become more literate, not the Church to bring down the liturgy.

Again, there is no excuse why a person does not know what is being said.

 

[Unitas]

On a humorous side note, someone once got me a subscription to “Latin Mass” magazine, I found it hilarious that the publication was in English.

Seriously folks, there is a place for the Latin Mass and I’m glad the TLM is making a comeback, but I don’t think it should be the norm.

Strange how LATIN shouldn’t be the norm in the LATIN rite…

So I assume you feel the same about all other masses in all other rites as well?

 

[Unitas]

“For the Church, precisely because it embraces all nations and is destined to endure until the end of time… of its very nature requires a language which is universal, immutable, and non- vernacular.” (Pope Pius XI, Officiorum Omnium, 1922).

“The use of the Latin language prevailing in a great part of the Church affords at once an imposing sign of unity and an effective safeguard against the corruption of true doctrine.” (Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei, 1947).

“The Catholic Church has a dignity far surpassing that of every merely human society, for it was founded by Christ the Lord. It is altogether fitting, therefore, that the language it uses should be noble, majestic and non-vernacular.” (Pope John XXIII, Veterum Sapientia, 1962).

“The Latin language is assuredly worthy of being defended with great care instead of being scorned; for the Latin Church it is the most abundant source of Christian civilization and the richest treasury of piety… we must not hold in low esteem these traditions of your fathers which were your glory for centuries.” (Pope Paul VI, Sacrificium Laudis, 1966).

Link

Oh, and this minor snippet:

36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

 

[Unitas]

No, THAT is wrong. Yes, the priest stands in the person of Christ, HOWEVER, what does the Church say about the liturgy?
This from the CCC 1136 etal

And finally, Canon Law itself:
So celebration without the laity is an EXCEPTION, not the norm, and even then, the priest is acting in unity with the WHOLE of the Body of Christ.

The sacrament is not dependent upon laity being present. We assist. We are not necessary to confect the sacrament.

 

[Fuerza]

I usually get hammered for suggesting this, but why don’t people who claim they won’t understand actually try to learn some Latin? Despite what some think, it’s not a very difficult language, and the extremely limited amount needed to “understand” the Mass could be learned relatively quickly. It may take a little work for some people, but it’s fun and rewarding. Plus, it can’t possibly hurt to learn something new. I guess I just don’t understand all the resistance.

 

[Yerusalyim]

I usually get hammered for suggesting this, but why don’t people who claim they won’t understand actually try to learn some Latin? Despite what some think, it’s not a very difficult language, and the extremely limited amount needed to “understand” the Mass could be learned relatively quickly. It may take a little work for some people, but it’s fun and rewarding. Plus, it can’t possibly hurt to learn something new. I guess I just don’t understand all the resistance.

You reach more people by having mass in the vernacular. I took HS Latin, I still can’t make heads or tails of most of the mass in Latin. But I understand and APPRECIATE mass in English.

Good thing we have Yerusalyim here to set the Church straight.

The CHURCH set itself straight in allowing the vernacular in Vatican II, I had nothing to do with it.

The sacrament is not dependent upon laity being present. We assist. We are not necessary to confect the sacrament.

And the sacrament is not dependent upon the words being pronounced in Latin…so there ya have it. Latin is NOT essential for the mass…the church wants the laity to participate in the liturgy with their whole being…not just sit and listen to it…most people do not know Latin, “ergo”, the Vernacular makes sense.

 

[beckycmarie]

Hello,
So tonight I just happened to be wearing my better in Latin tee shirt and I had a friend of mine start to kind of question the whole Latin mass and what it is all about and why it is so great compared to mass in the vernacular. He brought up the whole idea that getting something out of the mass is important and too pointed out that he gets nothing out of the Latin mass. I continued on by asking what the purpose of mass is and he responded with well to hear the readings and receive Jesus in the Eucharist. I responded with no, the purpose of the mass is to worship God. And it went on from there but I wish not to get into the full discussion.

How do you respond to this argument I am sure you have all heard it before.

Along with this the argument of well I don’t understand it came up I responded with, “It’s a mystery – if you know everything that’s going on, something is wrong.”

Dadude,

Perhaps when your friend really has a grasp of what is going on at Mass, he’ll “get more out of it.”

The following link is a pdf file of a revelation on the Holy Mass that has the approval of the seer’s bishop. The author, Catalina Rivas, had the significance of each part of the Mass revealed to her in spectacular detail. I think it is a good antidote for anyone that thinks the Mass is boring, regardless of whether it’s in English or Latin.

The Holy Mass

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Well the purpuse of the Mass is for the priest to offer the Holy Sacrifice to the Holy Trinity in reparation for the sins of the living and dead. That is one thing to say to counter him. See if what he sees on Sunday lives up to that.

Ken

That would come as quite a surprise to many of the young Catholics I know.

CDL

 

[mercygate]

A missal had been sufficient for how many centuries? And now just because you say it isn’t, it’s not? Yeah, ok.

So I guess all rites of the Church have been wrong for centuries by keeping their liturgies in their traditional tongues. Good thing we have Yerusalyim here to set the Church straight.

And if people are so illiterate that they cannot keep up with the liturgy, that is a problem with education, not the Church. It is up to them to become more literate, not the Church to bring down the liturgy.

Again, there is no excuse why a person does not know what is being said.

Actually, bilingual missals for the people were introduced rather late in the 19th Century and have not been around for “many centuries” as a readily available tool for most people. In fact, until the late 18th Century most laymen were illiterate.

Vernacular liturgy is not “bringing down” the liturgy. If it were, we would still be celebrating in Greek. If it were, we would impose Latin on the Eastern Churches.

That said, I am comfortable with Latin. I attend the TLM. And yet, I see why people have trouble entering the mystery to worship with their whole heart, mind, and strength. A LOT of your heart and **mind **get left at the curb when you not only struggle with the spoken word, but also with the written word and when 30 percent of the liturgy is SILENT. Even I get lost and have to catch up when I hear the bells.

And I do not believe that the people should be ENTIRELY responsible for educating themselves in this. If Latin is the language of the Church, then the Church should pony up and do the teaching. I do my bit. My sixth grade CCD classes learn the sign of the cross, the Lord’s prayer, and the Hail Mary in Latin.

 

[scriabin]

Along with this the argument of well I don’t understand it came up I responded with, “It’s a mystery – if you know everything that’s going on, something is wrong.”

I don’t get why some people believe this.

The Mass is a mystery in the sense that we’ll never fathom the Trinity, God becoming man, God loving us so much despite our sins, etc.

It isn’t supposed to be a mystery in the sense of “what the heck is going on up there? what’s the priest saying?”

Let’s educate ourselves-- following the missal, learning as much Latin as we can, reading books explaining the Mass, etc. The more we know about what’s going on there on the altar, the more we can unite our petitions, adoration, thanksgiving, and sufferings to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I don’t believe the sense of mystery that attracts TLM devotees is ignorance;for me, at least, the mystery is a greater, more profound presentation of the great mysteries of the Faith–God made man, our sufferings united to His, we the Body participate here on earth with the Head in Heaven, etc.