Responding to Objections. Please Help!

[JCaudle]

I have never done any real apologetic work, but someone posted a comment on my blog to which I feel I need to respond. I need help as soon as possible. It is a very faulty interpretation of the Magnificat with a link to one of the Chick tracts. He says he writes what he does out of love, and is very apparently anti-catholic. The quote below is the post he placed.

I love you this is why I write this

Luke 1:46-55

46 And Mary said:

…][this was where the text of the Magnificat was]

“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Mary is not God she is just a human being! She had to be saved from her sins just like each of us! God was her Savior! God the Father sent the Holy Spirit who conceived Jesus who is the Son of God who died on the cross for our and her sins and rose from the dead!
48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
Mary was just as evil and lowly as we are! She said all generations will call me blessed not all generations will worship me!
49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
God has done mighty things for her!!! And holy is God’s name! But her name is not holy!!!
50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
God gives mercy to those who worship and fear Him not those who worship and fear Mary! Even angels comanded men not to worship them and they are much higher than Mary!!!
51 He has shown strength with His arm;
He has scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
Get rid of your pride!!! Get rid of your religion!!! Religion profits no one!! You won’t get to heaven by being religous you will only get to heaven by having a personal relationship with God by accepting Jesus Christ who is the Son of God into your heart as your personal Savior!!!
52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
The Pope exalts him and so do all catholics but the truth is he is just a man and that God will cast the Popes into the lake of fire to burn eternally if they do not accept Jesus Christ and Him alone as their Lord and Savior!!!
53 He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
It is those who talk to God and hunger for God who will be filled with good things!!! When you pray to Mary you aren’t praying to Mary but you are actully praying to the Devil!!!
54 He has helped His servant Israel,
In remembrance of His mercy,
The true people of Israel are those who have accepted Jesus into their hearts and who renounce all other God’s!!! Getting rid of all idols!!! That includes all crafted objects!! If you bow down to any created thing even if it is a cross you are sinning!!! You should only bow down to the one and only God who is unseen!
55 As He spoke to our fathers,
To Abraham and to his seed forever.”
God spoke to the prophets and to Abraham but to Abraham’s seed (who is Jesus Christ the Son of God) God speaks to Him forever for Jesus is the Son of God!!!
I say these things not out of hate but out of love!!! I know that the only one who saves is Jesus Christ the Son of God!!! God is the only one who is holy: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit!!! Everyone else is sinful (Including Mary)!!! But we can be saved from our sinfulness our unrighteousness if only we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior!!!
Go to this site and read this guys testimony!
chick.com/reading/comics/0112/0112_fourpages.asp?PG=01

Love,
Neil, bondslave of Jesus Christ, called by God the Father, and used by the Holy Spirit!!!

I do not know how to respond constructively to this. I’ve read most of the article on Catholic Answers about Chick Tracts but I’m not exactly sure how to respond. Thank you for any help you can give me.

 

[FCEGM]

JC - I think your “friend” hates the Catholic Church more than he loves you.

As to his comments, the Catholic Answers library has tracts that answers most of them. Look in the section on “Mary and the Saints”. For instance:

catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

Of course, even though these answers are very good, that doesn’t mean that he will be open to reason or even have the ability to discuss the points the articles make without continuing his hateful dialogue.

Part of his problem lies in the fact that he - like many - doesn’t like the idea that anyone can be at a greater advantage in the Kingdom of God than himself - and that includes the Mother of God! (Note that he can’t even say that it was the Blessed Virgin Mary who conceived the Lord Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit; he completely removes her from the Incarnation.) Of course there is an infinite distance between the humanity of Mary and the divinity of Christ. Mary’s nature is human, though elevated to participation in the Divine nature, while Christ’s nature is both Divine and human. But there is no distance between the Hearts of the Son and Mother – between the New Covenant and she who is the Ark of the New Covenant (cf. 2 Sam 6:1-11 & Luke 1:39-56.)

God bless your efforts!

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

"Fundamentalists’ chief reason for objecting to the Immaculate Conception and Mary’s consequent sinlessness is that we are told that “all have sinned” (Rom. 3:23). Besides, they say, Mary said her “spirit rejoices in God my Savior” (Luke 1:47), and only a sinner needs a Savior.

Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.

Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!"

From: Catholic Answers

 

[elizabeth4truth]

“Stop judging by appearances, but judge justly” John 7:24

Can mankind ever judge “justly”? Has Jesus’ Mother been judged justly by man?

It seems, for Catholics, Mary was “pre-justified” by her Son; saved before her birth. Born similar to Adam and Eve, without original sin. I don’t believe scripture actually states she was born of original sin.

“But we know where He is from. When the Messiah comes, no one will know where He is from.” John 7:27

There is profound mystery in the birth of Christ.

Why do non-Catholic Christians want to argue this point? What difference does it make to anyone what we believe? Isn’t that all vanity?

 

[RyanL]

JCaudle,

First, and foremost, you need to impress upon your friend that Catholics believe Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. He alone can bridge the gap between God, surrounded in all holiness, and man, mired in sin. Mary, compared to God, is a speck of dust - no, nothing!, when compared to God. This is a very Catholic teaching - read St. Louis de Montfort’s “True Marian Devotion”, chapter one, paragraph one, to see what I have just said is the case. Explain that if the charges just made were true, YOU would NOT be a Catholic!
Emphatically emphasize that the Pope is not God, Mary is not God, priests are not God - there is no God but God! Anyone who believes otherwise would be damned to Hell according to the Catholic Church.
Then, invite your friend to this forum. Tell your friend to pick their favorite charge against the Church (and only one charge at a time, please), and have them start a thread which says, “Look…I don’t understand why you do 'x”, but would be interested in what you have to say. I believe differently, and this is why. I won’t verbally attack you, please don’t verbally attack me. My faith tradition holds that we only use the bible (don’t ask why - off topic). Please use the bible to explain how you reconcile ‘x’ practice with ‘y’ verse. Thank you."

There’s no reason for you to go at this character on your own. Bring them here! Let us help!

RyanL

 

[Axion]

Let’s have a look…

I love you this is why I write this

Hmmmmmm.

Luke 1:46-55
46 And Mary said:
"My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.
Mary is not God she is just a human being! She had to be saved from her sins just like each of us! God was her Savior! God the Father sent the Holy Spirit who conceived Jesus who is the Son of God who died on the cross for our and her sins and rose from the dead!

Who said Mary was God? That’s a strawman.

Also note. Mary doesn’t say “God who will be my saviour”, speaking of the future. She speaks in the present tense. The grace of salvation has already been applied to Mary, long before the crucifixion. mary is already cleansed and redeemed of sin. This is a sign of her immaculate conception, and being “Full of Grace”, as the Gabriel entitled her.

48 For He has regarded the lowly state of His maidservant;
For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed.
Mary was just as evil and lowly as we are! She said all generations will call me blessed not all generations will worship me!

No. Mary was humble, and scripture says that it is the humble who will be raised high.

49 For He who is mighty has done great things for me,
And holy is His name.
God has done mighty things for her!!! And holy is God’s name! But her name is not holy!!!

Strange. The one verse he has forgotten. And all generations shall call me blessed. All generations are to remember and bless Mary. But he ignores that and invents his own doctrine!
He calls the Mother who gave her nature to Jesus “not holy”!

50 And His mercy is on those who fear Him
From generation to generation.
God gives mercy to those who worship and fear Him not those who worship and fear Mary! Even angels comanded men not to worship them and they are much higher than Mary!!!

1. Catholics do not worship Mary, so this person is making false accusations, and bearing false witness is a sin. He will probably come back with a lot of stuff about prayer to mary, or “bowing to statues”. Refer him to the relevant catholic apologetic material.
2. Mary, as Mother of God the Son is higher than angels. Scripture says that Christian Saints will judge angels.

51 He has scattered the proud
Get rid of your pride!!! Get rid of your religion!!! Religion profits no one!! You won’t get to heaven by being religous you will only get to heaven by having a personal relationship with God by accepting Jesus Christ who is the Son of God into your heart as your personal Savior!!!

Perhaps this person should get rid of his pride, to think himself wiser than the Saints, Martyrs and faithful Christians who kept the Faith for 2000 years! Jesus found a church on earth, under Peter and the Apostles, He did not tell everyone to go off and invent their own beliefs. Scripture says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth. Jesus told us to confess our sins in the Church and to partake of his real body and blood. he commanded baptism and discipleship, not new-agey type, feel-good, “personal relationships.”

52 He has put down the mighty from their thrones,
And exalted the lowly.
The Pope exalts him and so do all catholics but the truth is he is just a man and that God will cast the Popes into the lake of fire to burn eternally if they do not accept Jesus Christ and Him alone as their Lord and Savior!!!

Why is he so obsessed with Catholics? has he got no atheists or agnostics or Muslims to go and preach to with his warped gospel? Catholics know Jesus, they are in the Chuch he founded. they gave this man his bible and his knowledge of who Jesus is - long before whatever sect he is in was formed.

53 He has filled the hungry with good things,
And the rich He has sent away empty.
It is those who talk to God and hunger for God who will be filled with good things!!! When you pray to Mary you aren’t praying to Mary but you are actully praying to the Devil!!!

This is sick. Jesus’s mother is the devil? Jesus would allow his mother to be used by the devil? He needs to stop reading fraudulent lying hate literature like the Chick tracts he advocates, which have been proved to be false and deceitful many times. And who is the father of lies?

54 He has helped His servant Israel,
In remembrance of His mercy,
The true people of Israel are those who have accepted Jesus into their hearts and who renounce all other God’s!!! Getting rid of all idols!!! That includes all crafted objects!! If you bow down to any created thing even if it is a cross you are sinning!!! You should only bow down to the one and only God who is unseen!

These ideas came not from Christianity but Islam. Does he have a picture, a TV? Does he kneel in prayer before anything - a bed, his pastor, a bible, a lectern? This is legalism taken to extremes.

 

[mercygate]

God has done mighty things for her!!! And holy is God’s name! But her name is not holy!!!

Paul calls everybody in the Church “holy.” The Greek word often translated as “saints” is hagioi = “holy ones.”

 

[JCaudle]

Thank you all for your responses. I replied using many of the things you all told me. I have not received a response yet, but I really appreciate having a resource as great as these forums. Thank you so much.

 

[juno24]

Send him a link to these fora-- the folks here can correct his misinterpretations. I would like to know, though, where on earth he got the idea that Mary, the mother of our Lord, is evil and the Devil!

 

[AmberDale]

I am a new convert, I didn’t quite get Mary and the Saints either. I converted and understood more. For my baptism my SIL bought me a wonderful book.

“Hail Holy Queen” by Scott Hahn

It has given me a better understanding of Mary and seems to have brought me closer to her and in turn she is bringing me closer to Jesus Christ.
So if one day he seems not so violantly anti-Catholic then suggest he read that book.

 

[Funky_Cedars]

JCaudle:

Thank you for any help you can give me…Even angels comanded men not to worship them and they are much higher than Mary!!!

i’d ask for the name of one angle for whom God gave His life. there are none. as magnificent as they are, and they are seriously awesome, they are not even in our league when it comes to relationship with the Creator.
in the divine liturgy (of st John Chrysostom), we even specifically note that Mary is ‘higher in dignity than the Cherubim and without compare greater in glory than the Seraphim.’ these are the highest ranks of angles, who adore and contemplate the very face of the Godhead, yet even they can’t match the position of the Godbearer.

me thinks that to not think that the creature who bore the Creator of everything is clearly the most important of all the creatures is to simply not think.
good luck, and thanks for listening, t

Glory be Jesus Christ!

 

[JCaudle]

Ok, so I just recieved a reply from the guy who sent me the thing he posted. I’ll post it here so you all can read it.

Hello everyone.
If I offended anyone I apoligize and I would like to tell you why I believe what I believe.
Luke 11:27-28
“And it happened, as He (Jesus) spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crown raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!’ But He (Jesus) said, ‘More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!’”
Jesus said that those who listen to the word of God and keep it are more blessed than His mother.
Matthew 12:46-50
“While He (Jesus) was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, ‘Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.’ But He (Jesus) answered and said to the one who told Him, ‘Who is My mother and who are My brothers?’ And He strectched out His hand toward His disciples and said, ‘Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.’”
Jesus plainly says here that those physically related to Him are in no better shape and are not closer to Him than anyone else.
1 Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.”
There is one Mediator between God and men and that person is Jesus Christ. You can go straight to Jesus!
Those are just a few of the reasons that I believe what I believe. I appoligize and I know that the way I did the original post was wrong and if what I was trying to do was wrong then the Lord rebuke me. But I did what I did and I can not change that. Hopefully I will do better in the future.

Love,
Neil, bondslave of Christ Jesus, called by God the Father, and used by the Holy Spirit!
P.S. I appoligize for my (name removed by moderator)erfections I am a may still in need a the Savior Jesus Christ!

There were many responses on his site from Catholics defending the doctrines the Church holds on Mary. I’m glad to see that he is being humble about what he said, but I don’t know what I should do next. Should I just pray, and let God guide him? Or should I respond to this reply? More help would be greatly appreciated. You all have helped so much already.

 

[RyanL]

JCaudle:

Should I just pray, and let God guide him? Or should I respond to this reply?

BOTH!! More in a bit, but it’s dinner time and the wife is waiting…

RyanL

 

[JCaudle]

ok, apparently in the last line of the response, it was supposed to read “man” instead of “may.”

 

[Eden]

Don’t forget to ask him to come to these forums.

 

[FuzzyBunny116]

" Luke 11:27-28
“And it happened, as He (Jesus) spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crown raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!’ But He (Jesus) said, ‘More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!’”
Jesus said that those who listen to the word of God and keep it are more blessed than His mother."

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=55874

" 1 Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.”
There is one Mediator between God and men and that person is Jesus Christ. You can go straight to Jesus!"

Jesus also asks us to pray for others, and to ask others to pray for us. This is EXACTLY what were are doing when we “pray” to Mary, only she is infinetly more holy and closer to God then we are.

 

[antoniov64]

Two comments about the Magnificat of Mary:

1. Mary rightly calls God her savior. The Church teaches that eventhough Mary was PRESERVED from original sin since her conception, she is saved in a special way (by anticipation) due to the fact that she is to become the mother of God. So when we say preserved…by God naturally, this preservation is the redemption effect had on the Immaculate conception. The logic is in the definition of original sin, which is a kind of submission of our nature to evil, a nature that rebel against God’s will. God cannot be conceived or take flesh from a sinful nature. The purpose of the immaculate conception (and of Mary’s existence) is exactly the incarnation, all is done with Christ in mind.
   Let us also not forget the other aspect of salvation which is more than cleansing from original sin but also, transforming our imperfect nature into a glorious spiritualized one, through resurrection. Mary still needed that, which occured on her assumption BY GOD into heaven.
2. On a more biblical note, in the Magnificat (as the text suggests) Mary was representing the eschatological hopes, faiths and aspirations of Israel which should be fulfilled through the coming of the Messiah. Israel always called Yahveh Lord and savior and Mary does the same here. This is not the only text where the Evangelists portray Mary as the representative of Israel, the eschatological Israel, the new Jerusalem, daughter of Sion, and eventually the Church.

 

[antoniov64]

" Luke 11:27-28
“And it happened, as He (Jesus) spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crown raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!’ But He (Jesus) said, ‘More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!’”
Jesus said that those who listen to the word of God and keep it are more blessed than His mother."]

That is an false interpretation! Jesus is saying that spiritual links are more important than physical ones. Mary is Blessed more because of her submission to God’s will more than she is blessed for her physical ties to Christ, in fact, the first sanctify even more the second.

Jesus is not saying other people are more blessed than his mother. The holy Spirit spoke in Elizabeth: Blessed the one who believed… That is the real Blessing of Mary. We should proclaim Mary blessed BUT for the right reason, her FAITH.
I cannot believe those anti-Catholic interpretations!

 

[RyanL]

J,
Sorry it took so long. Let’s see if we can clear up some of Niel’s issues - BTW, I still haven’t seen him post here…
First, I would remind him that the punnishment for publically remonstrating with your mother or father under Levitical Law is death by stoning. Jesus never broke Levitical Law (as that is sin), so it’s safe to say that Jesus *never *publically criticized His mother. Couple this with Jesus’ keeping the 5th commandment (for Catholics, the 4th commandment - different thread) perfectly, and it becomes clear that Jesus only ever brought glory and honor to Mary. This is what the commandment says, so this must be what Jesus did. So let’s now re-read with Jewish eyes…
Niel:

Luke 11:27-28
“And it happened, as He (Jesus) spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crown raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You…’ But He (Jesus) said, ‘More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!’”
Jesus said that those who listen to the word of God and keep it are more blessed than His mother.

If I get a life-saving surgery from one of the world’s preiminent doctors, and told I him, “Man, you must have had some kind of mother! She really raised you right! She must be quite a lady,” would anyone on earth think that I am complimenting his mother, exclusively? NOPE. I am complimenting him through his mother (and his mother actually has fairly little to do with the compliment). How wacked would it sound if he replied, “Wait just a second - my mother is nothing! She’s not lucky at all! I am great, and you are great if you follow the rehab program I recommend!” That’s just nuts. Re-read the passage, and see how this rings true. Can you see now how “Mary” is off-topic? Moreover, we honor Mary because we believe that more than any other “only-human” she did the will of the Father. She was perfectly submissive to His will. She is the model for our submission to God. This is why we call Mary Blessed - because she’s humble and submissive, as we should all strive to be. What’s more, there’s nothing in the passage quoted to suggest otherwise!
Niel:

Matthew 12:46-50
“… ‘Who is My mother and who are My brothers?’ And He strectched out His hand toward His disciples and said, ‘Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.’”
Jesus plainly says here that those physically related to Him are in no better shape and are not closer to Him than anyone else.

Again, Jesus is teaching on a pretty deep level here. This verse is not a “my mother is a nobody” lesson. What Jesus is emphasizing is that family relations are not what really count in His kingdom. What counts is submission to God in the plan He has for your life, and I just described what Catholics believe about Mary’s submission. Mary isn’t blessed because of who *she *is, but rather she is blessed because of what she does - the will of the Father! By accepting Jesus Christ through His Church, Catholics believe that we become spiritual brothers and sisters, as well as a brother to Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. We share a Father, we are brothers and sisters, and we believe that when Jesus gave the Apostle John His mother from the cross, Mary became our mother, too!
Niel:

1 Timothy 2:5
"For there is one God and one Mediator…

Yes, you can go straight to Jesus - and we DO! But also read 1 Timothy 2:1-4 (the four verses prior to this…CONTEXT!), and see that we are all to make intercessions for eachother. You see, we (as believers) are part of the Body of Christ (Col 1:18, 24; Eph 1:22, 23; 1 Cor 12:27; 6:15; 10:17; Rom 12:4,5). As St. Paul tells us, we cannot say to another part of the Body, “I don’t need you.” We all need eachother. If I told you that I don’t need you to pray for me, I am disobeying the word of God, and that is a sin. What’s more, when our bodies die we are not somehow separated from the Body of Christ - indeed, we are even more members of the Body of Christ, as we have been “made perfect” (Heb 12:23). If we are part of the same Body of Christ, and those who are in the Body are to pray for eachother (1 Tim 2:1-4), and we cannot say to a part of the Body that we don’t need them…why on earth wouldn’t we ask the ‘holy ones’ in Heaven to pray for us? After all, we’re not communicating with the dead - the saints are alive in Christ (more alive even than you or I). Christ took away death’s sting for those who have the “obedience of faith” (Rom 1:5; 16:26), so we shouldn’t be scared of death or the ‘holy ones’ who have been saved.

Good luck, and INVITE NIEL HERE! We are brothers and sisters, and family helps eachother out! There’s no need to go-it alone…

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[RyanL]

J,

You may even offer a bit of a challenge…

Luke 1:46And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, (KJV)

Have Niel explain how, exactly, Mary’s soul magnifies the Lord for him? It’s in the word, and he does believe the word, right?

You may also give him another challenge…

1. Jesus is a Davidic king (King of Kings, actually)
2. Solomon was a Davidic king. Davidic kings bow to no one. They are the supreme rulers of the land.
3. Solomon’s mother was the queen (as was always the way in a Davidic kingdom - investigate the word “giberah”)
4. 1 Kings 2:19 describes a scene with Bathsheba and Solomon. Ask him to retell it for you.
5. Ask him why Bathsheba was speaking for Adonijah (hint…it has to do with intercession).
6. Ask him why our new Davidic king (King of Kings) would have it any other way.

Good Luck!
RyanL

Hail Mary, full of grace!
The Lord is with you! (Luke 1:27-29).
Blessed are you among women,
and blest is the fruit of your womb, Jesus. (Luke 1:42).

Holy Mary, Mother of God (Luke 1:43)
pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. (for a note on the effectiveness of prayer, see James 5:16). Amen.