Responding to Objections. Please Help!

[thessalonian]

He has either or theology syndrome. You can’t say Mary is blessed because Jesus says someone else is blessed. She can’t be more blessed because he says blessed rather. Trump versing is in play here as well. Luke says “blessed are you among women”. But later retracts and says “well she’s no more blessed”.

Quote:
Hello everyone.
If I offended anyone I apoligize and I would like to tell you why I believe what I believe.
Luke 11:27-28
“And it happened, as He (Jesus) spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crown raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!’ But He (Jesus) said, ‘More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!’”
Jesus said that those who listen to the word of God and keep it are more blessed than His mother.

The subject is the blessings of Mary because of the breasts that nursed Jesus. Her blessedness is attributed to her physical relationship to God. But Luke 1 tells us that Mary was “most blessed of all women”. So she was blessed. In order to reconcile the two verses we have to change our view a bit. Luke 11 does not contradict himself by saying “Mary really wasn’t blessed like I said before”. Rather Jesus is pointing toward a different reason for her blessedness. RATHER than it being her physical nursing it is her fiat “Let it be done according to your will” to the angel Gabriel when he proclaimed what God had in store fore her. And we can be blessed that way as well. But that does nothing to deny that all generations are to call her blessed and that she is blessed among women.

Quote:
Matthew 12:46-50
“While He (Jesus) was still talking to the multitudes, behold, His mother and brothers stood outside, seeking to speak with Him. Then one said to Him, ‘Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You.’ But He (Jesus) answered and said to the one who told Him, ‘Who is My mother and who are My brothers?’ And He strectched out His hand toward His disciples and said, ‘Here are My mother and My brothers! For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.’”
Jesus plainly says here that those physically related to Him are in no better shape and are not closer to Him than anyone else.!

It seems to me that he is elevating those around him rather than putting down his mother of whom his commandments say “honor your father and mother”. All generations call her blessed. Do you think all generations will call you blessed? She is most blessed among women. Was there another who was more blessed or is the Bible wrong about those sisters that you speak of. Are they equally blessed? That would mean that more blessed (blessed are you among women) is a biblical error.

1 Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.”
There is one Mediator between God and men and that person is Jesus Christ. You can go straight to Jesus!

Amen. We do. But we can also go through others as v. 1-4 prior to your verse say is good to do.

1]
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way.
3] This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Paul asks for prayers in many places. Why doesn’t he just say, I’ll go straight to Jesus and not ask you for your prayers. Mary and others take away nothing from Jesus mediatorship. She adds to it because it is through him as the one mediator that we pray and it is the same for her. We simply ask that those prayers be about our needs.

Blessings

 

[RyanL]

J,

A quick illustration, more for your benefit than Niel’s. I have no idea who originated this, but it serves to illustrate how Mary is not “robbing” Christ of anything (which, I assure you, is Niel’s fear). As I don’t remember it exactly, I’ll closely paraphrase…

The same God who gave us the sun also gave us the moon. The moon does not take away from the sun; all it’s light is reflected. But on dark nights we are grateful for the moon, who guides our path with the light of the sun. So it is with Mary.

God bless you and keep you,
RyanL

 

[javelin]

Neil:

Luke 11:27-28
“And it happened, as He (Jesus) spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crown raised her voice and said to Him, ‘Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!’ But He (Jesus) said, ‘More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!’”
Jesus said that those who listen to the word of God and keep it are more blessed than His mother.

He’s incorrectly interpreting “More than that…” to mean “Greater than Mary…”, as though “more” meant “greater”. However, that phrase, and the word “more” specifically, can also mean “Additionally”, with the word “more” meaning “added to”. So we could paraphrase Jesus this way, which in-context makes more sense: “But Jesus said, 'Yes she is. But blessed, too, are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”. His interpretation is kinda funny to me simply because in my own speaking day-to-day, I use “more than that” to mean “additionally” all the time!

The point is important (which is why Jesus made it in the first place)! From the crowd’s perspective, Mary is blessed because of a favor she was graced with that they can never achieve – physical kinship with Christ. Jesus’ point was that kinship with Him is possible for everyone, through hearing and obeying the Word of God. This kinship was ultimately manifest in the new covenant Church, the bride of Christ, in communion with the Holy Spirit, through which all are made children of God and Christ’s own brothers and sisters.

On a side note, it is passages like these that make it impossible for me to believe in Sola Fide. Christ clearly infers that only listening to the Word is not enough; obedience (a work) is required. There are numerous passages in the 4 gospels that clearly link obedience to true faith.

Back on topic: The simple misinterpretation of Luke 11:27-28 is an obvious example of why we need the Church guided by the Spirit to teach us the True message of the Scriptures. Human languages are simply NOT sufficient to present God’s Word without some ambiguity or human interpretation able to twist or obscure the meaning of the Creator.

Peace,
javelin

 

[JCaudle]

Thank you all for your help. I just posted a 1.5 page response on Neil’s site. I asked him again to come to these forums. I seriously hope and pray that he will, but if he doesn’t he has still been given a seed. Well keep him in your prayers, I’m sure he can use them. Thank you all once again.

 

[JCaudle]

Well, I received a response from Neil. He says he is willing to talk to me about the topics I brought up in my last post to him. His main objections had to do with Mary’s Immaculate Conception and prayer to the saints. I quoted RyanL about the saints, and prayer to them. He wants to know where to find the Immaculate Conception, or evidence for it, in scripture. Please help again! I appreciate it so much.

I invited him to these forums, but I don’t know if he’ll come.

 

[JCaudle]

This is his response for those who care to read it.

Ok I agree with almost everything that you posted on my site.

To your respons to Luke 11:27-28
I agree that Mary is extrodanarly blessed but I don’t think she is any more blessed than anyone else was.
In those verses Jesus calls everyone who accepts God’s Word and pratices it blessed and I believe that what Jesus meant is that everyone who accepts God’s Word and pratices it is equally blessed! And I don’t believe at all that Mary was sinnless because scripture says nothing about it (if you can find a scripture that says otherwize I will be glad to listen).

To your reponse to Matthew 12:46-50
Again Mary is blessed but so is everyone else who accepts and practices the Word of God!

To the quote I agree with all of that except the praying to the saints part. I don’t know if that is right or not and anyways I would much rather spend my time praying to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit!

If you would like to talk more I am open to talking and hey we know that God’s Word is truth and that the details will be found out once we are in heaven and our face to face with God our heavonly Father!
Again sorry if I went about the first comment the wrong way but hey I’ve learned from this.

Love,
Neil, bondslave of Christ Jesus, called by God the Father, and used by the Holy Spirit!!!

May God’s grace, God’s mercy, God’s love, and peace with God abound in your life!!!

Thanks for any help you offer.

 

[thessalonian]

JCaudle:

Well, I received a response from Neil. He says he is willing to talk to me about the topics I brought up in my last post to him. His main objections had to do with Mary’s Immaculate Conception and prayer to the saints. I quoted RyanL about the saints, and prayer to them. He wants to know where to find the Immaculate Conception, or evidence for it, in scripture. Please help again! I appreciate it so much.

I invited him to these forums, but I don’t know if he’ll come.

Okay, here is what I would say about the immaculate conception. First start out with a question to introduce him to allegory and types if he is not aware of them. Ask him where in the Old Testament it speaks of Jesus being in the tomb for three days? It must say it somewhere for it says:

Luke 24
26: Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?"
27: And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he **interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. **

Well it’s not explicitly in the OT but it is alluded to using a literary type called allegory or extended metaphore. Jesus makes an application of it himself on this very subject for he says:

Matt 12:
40: For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Jonah is a type of Christ and this is a form of allegory, a common literary device of the time. It is used all over in the Old Testament. Now what does this have to do with Mary.
Well Luke uses another interesting literary device called a parrellel to help us out. Let’s look at 2 Sam 6 and Luke 1.

Both events took place in the hill country of Judah:

Luke 1
39. Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,

2 Sam 6
2. And David arose and went with all the people who were with him to Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God which is called by the Name, the very name of the LORD of hosts who is enthroned above the cherubim.

Similarity of David and Elizabeth’s words in greeting Mary and speaking of the Ark.
luke 1
43. "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me?

2 Sam 6

1. So David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?”

John leaps before Mary who contains the Lord in her womb.
Luke 1
44. "For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy.

David leaps before the ark in which the Lord resides.
2 Sam 6
16. Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David** leaping **and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

Mary stays with elizabeth for 3 mo.

1. And Mary stayed with her about three months, and then returned to her home.

The Ark stays with obemedon for 3 mo.

1. Thus the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite three months, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and all his household.

Too many coincidences here for one to not draw a parrellel.
Now what we have established is that the Ark of the Covenant is a type of Mary and is used in allegory regarding her. Things about the ark apply to Mary as well in a spiritual sense just as in a spiritual sense what happened to Jonah applied to Christ. Now the Ark was built to God’s specificatoins and was exceedingly pure. (see Ex 25 for the construction of the Ark) So pure that if any man touched it he would fall dead, as Uraiha the Hittite did in 2 Sam 6 when the Ark was about to fall over. Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant, the God bearer, as some of the Church Fathers called her was built to God’s specifications as well. Holy and pure to hold the God of the universe, the Son of God, Jesus Christ, only son of the Father.
There is much more Catholic theology that is implicit in the Ark of the Covenant as well, such as the Jews bowing down before it and praying through it to God, Mary’s perpetual virginity, etc.

Hope that helps.

Blessings

 

[RyanL]

Once again, Thessalonian is right on the money with the ark.
A succint re-cap of the parallels(initially given here by another threadster: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=4325 )

Why did they need the ark in the OT? What happened when the ark was present during battles? Mary is fulfillment of what the OT ark pointed to. It was a prefigurement of our Blessed Mother. As great as a shadow is in the OT, what it points to in fulfillment is even greater. The ark was honored and couldn’t even be touched. The ark swayed battles against evil. How much more the fulfillment of this shadow?

Luke shows very clearly how the ark is a shadow of Mary as its fulfillment.

The ark goes to the hill country.
Mary goes to the hill country.

David asks, “who am I that the ark of the Lord should come to me?”
Elizabeth asks “who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

The ark stays in the house for three months.
Mary stays in Elizabeth’s house for three months.

David lept for joy at the presnece of the ark.
John the Baptists leaps for joy at the sound of Mary’s voice.

The ark was housed in a tabernacle overshadowed by the glory cloud.
The angel tells Mary that the power of the Most High will overshadow her.

The ark contained the written Word of God.
Mary contained the Word made flesh.

The ark contained bread from Heaven.
Mary contained true bread from Heaven.

The ark contained the rod of the true priesthood.
Mary contained the true Priest.

Add to that, the ark was built with an emphasis on purity because of what it would hold. What it held - SYMBOLS of Jesus.

Mary held the fulfillment of these symbols - Jesus - so why would there be less emphasis on her purity being that she had the fulfillment of the symbols the ark carried?

Hence, the Immaculate Conception. The Purity of the Ark which contained not a symbol of Jesus but Jesus himself in fulfillment.

Also, the ark could not be touched by man, which points to the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Now, whether or not Mary should be honored, and whether her fulfillment of these shadows is worthy of recognition. If God deemed the ark of the OT worthy of honor and deemed the shadows it represented worthy of recogonition, what kind of reasoning concludes that this should not be the case for the fulfillment and perfection of the ark?

We must also remeber the intercession of the ark was necessary for the battle and victory against evil, AND disaster when the ark wasn’t present. What is the fulfillment of that?

Mary fights evil for us. God put enmity between the serpent and the woman in Genesis and this is exactly what takes place in Revelation 12.

Furthermore, as St. Louis DeMonfort related in “The Secret Of The Rosary”, the demons fear Mary because she defeats them. Unblblical? Hardly. The OT has several shadows that point to this.

The Bible shows instances of a woman destroying evil rulers in the OT:

Judges 4:21: Then Jael Heber’s wife took a nail of the tent, and took an hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was fast asleep and weary. So he died.

So, we indeed have a woman delivering a fatal blow to the head of an evil rulere. Look what happens after that:

Judges 5:24: Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

The woman who delivers the fatal blow to the evil head is called blessed above women.

More:

Judges 9:53: And a certain woman cast a piece of a millstone upon Abimelech?s head, and all to brake his skull.

Here we have a woman literally crushing the head of evil.

This is an OT foreshadowing - the verse in Genesis begining to be played out - not final because the devil isn’t crushed, but a foreshadowing as prefigures of evil receive fatal blows to the head. This is God’s Word being fulfilled.

If this sounds strange, consider that in Genesis, the enmity is personal between the woman who gives birth to Jesus and the devil. Jesus, her offspring is at war with the devil’s offspring.

THIS TAKES NOTHING FROM JESUS, but just offers consideration of what the verse in Genesis actually says, and how its played out in scripture. Scripture clearly shows women as prefigures delivering fatal blows to the head of prefigured evil, and scripture clearly shows direct enmity between the woman and the devil and the devil at war with her.

If the shadows of Mary were needed, interceded, destroyed evil, and were honored, what does this point to? We NEED Mary.

If they needed the ark, then we need Mary. The Bible shows us this very clearly. Never forget that not only did good things happen when the ark was present, but also disaster when there was no ark present. Don’t leave Mary out of your life.

Most of the parallels are from 2 Sam 6, with some from 1 Sam. If you need further citation, just ask! More to follow…

 

[RyanL]

Now, what we just showed you was the type, or prophetic foreshadowing of Mary. The thing is…it’s not explicit. Even though John links Mary and the Ark together at the end of Rev 11 and the beginning of Rev 12, and the Holy Spirit links the two through the textual parallels, Scripture never out-and-out says “MARY IS THE ARK!!” (just as it never comes out and says “GOD IS TRINITY”). Scripture does, however explicily say that Mary was immaculately conceived! We just have to know the words…

In Luke 1:28, the angle of the Lord says to Mary, “…Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee…” (KJV). We have to understand something before we discuss this… In the OT (and in the new), when a person’s name is changed by God it shows who they are, as well as what they are called. God changed Abram’s name to Abraham (father of many), Sarai’s to Sarah (princess), Jacob became Israel, Jesus was called Emmanuel, Simon became Peter, etc. EVERY TIME this occurs, God is telling us something about the person and their role in His plan. So it is with Mary. Let us return to Luke 1:28. “thou that art highly favoured” is a translation of a single Greek word - “Kecharitomene”. What the angel said, then, was, “Hail, Kecharitomene, the Lord is with thee…”. What the angel is doing here is calling Mary by her title (much as Jesus was called Emmanuel). Without further adu, let me tell you what this word means. Kecharitomene comes from the Greek word ‘chartoo’, or *’*graced’. Kecharitomene, however, is the perfect passive participle, which shows a completeness with a permanent result. This specific word is unique to Luke 1:28, and we’re about to see why:

     Accord: The Greek perfect tense denotes         the present state resultant upon a past action * (*New Testament Greek for         Beginners*, *p. 187).[biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm](http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm)

The perfect tense in Greek is a past tense with a special meaning: it is used to refer to a past action which has effects felt in the present.pcea.asn.au/WPG/Christ_Crucified.htm

•     Kecharitomene* denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W.         Smyth,  Greek Grammar [Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968],         p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p.175).

What the angel says (to belabor the point) is “Hail, one who has been *perfectly *and *completely *filled with the grace of God at some point in the past, with continued effects in the present, the Lord is with thee…”.
This is the revelation of the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Like Adam and Eve before her, Mary was created with a special grace, completely free from original sin - in other words, *perfectly *graced (i.e., without stain or blemish). Again, this was not her doing, but God, her Savior, doing this “great thing” for her (Luke 1:49). This is how we can say that Mary was sinless, yet still needed a Savior (Luke 1:47).
Now, re-read the angelic encounters in the NT and OT, and see that typically the angel will say, “Do not be afraid!” as the opening line. Here, however, we see something different. Here, we see the angel saying, “HAIL!”. Rather than a command, the angel comes to Mary with a request. Rather than intimidation, the angel comes to Mary a humble servant who greets her with a pledge of allegiance. Can you see how this 14 year old girl was greatly troubled at what manner of greeting this was (Luke 1:29)? She didn’t know God’s plan at that point! All she knew was this angel of the Lord was greeting her with a greeting the likes of which was never before uttered. Without this understanding, it’s easy to see how this kind of greeting could be troubling to a young Jewish girl! But WITH this understanding, we can now see exactly what God was revealing to us through His appointed messenger.

Hope this helps, and if you need further explaination…ask!
May God bless you and keep you,
RyanL

 

[Malachi4U]

Here we go again!

Chick tracts? When will Satan stop?

Try these links:

religioustolerance.org/hallo_ev3.htm
jhuger.com/tract/dtr/index.php
mafg.home.isp-direct.com/jtchick/jtc02r.htm%between%
members.cox.net/jimmyakin/x-meet-jack-chick.htm
catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p1.asp
monsterwax.com/chickchurch.html
bismikaallahuma.org/God/Hazor/
geocities.com/atypicalcommentary/tricktracts/index.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_Publications

Say a rosary for Jack and his dupes, they need our prayers for God to forgive them. God loves us all.

 

[RyanL]

I don’t know if that is right or not and anyways I would much rather spend my time praying to God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit!

So I was thinking about it, and it seems that your friend may need an illustration to help see where we’re coming from. Here’s an analogy:

Let’s say you get engaged. You love your fiance more and more every day, and you simply can’t get enough of them. Then, your fiance says, “I’d like to introduce you to my family.” Imagine, if you will, responding, “No thanks. I just want to focus on loving you. I don’t really care about your parents, brothers, sisters, or cousins. They kinda’ get in the way of my loving you. I don’t really want anything to do with them; I just want to love you and you alone.”

Wouldn’t anyone want their fiance to meet, love, and honor their family? If I become best friends with my wife’s brother, would she be offended? Would she think that I’m somehow taking away from the love I give her? Of course not.

The Catholic way of thinking about eachother and our relationship with God is a family way of thinking. We love all of our brothers and sisters, we honor those who have died for God, we cherish people who have spent their lives serving our Savior and bearing witness to His glory. We honor most our brothers and sisters who have placed our family above all things, and have obeyed the Father in faith and love. We believe that God sees us as His family, as well. When children play together and love eachother, the Father is not offended - rather, He is glad that the family is growing strong. To say that we simply don’t want to acknowledge our brothers and sisters in heaven is like saying, “I don’t want to play with my brother. I don’t really even want him as a brother. I just want my Father to be my dad, and that’s all.”

Perhaps these two ideas might help illustrate what we’re really thinking about with the Communion of Saints…

RyanL

 

[JCaudle]

Thank you all for all of your help. I’m going to set up at time during which I will be able to Instant Message him. He no longer seems to be quite as anti-Catholic as he was before, and he is very receptive to any suggestions or corrections on things he says. I thank you all so much for your prayers and guidance. He’s not about to join an RCIA group or anything, but I think he’s much more informed than he was before. Please keep both Neil and I in your prayers. I know that he appreciates it and I do to. Thank you. I’ll let you all know how the conversation goes. I won’t talk to him until Monday probably.

 

[JCaudle]

Ok, I just talked to Neil for about an hour online. I don’t know how far I got. We both seemed to be pretty adamant in our stances. I tried to use the grammatical analysis of kecharitomene. I’ve taken Greek for the past two years, so I knew the grammatical analysis, I just didn’t know that specific point. I don’t think he quite understood what I was saying, and then he cited Romans 3:23 where Paul wrote that all have sinned. I tried to refute that by saying that infants haven’t sinned and that Christ didn’t sin, but he said that infants are born into sin, and that Christ was fully divine and therefore could not sin. So, I tried to use Christ’s full humanity to say that there was a human who had not sinned, but he would not accept Christ in the “all.” So I tried to go for even a possibility of God making a human soul without sin. He accepted that, but said that God would do that for everyone if he did it for one. I tried to refute that by saying that He did it for Adam and Eve, and somehow got to the idea of Christ as the New Adam. I think that’s in Paul’s Epistles, but I don’t know for sure. If anyone knows about that, and where the idea originated please help me.

Anyway, I was planning on changing to the parallels between Mary and the ark of the Covenant, but my parents were telling me that I needed to go set the table for dinner, so I had to cut off our discussion early, before we were anywhere near reaching a conclusion.

If anyone has any tips about what I can do better the next time I talk with him, please let me know. I also do not think I will be able to talk with him for a while I think. He is going on a mission trip to Cambodia, and I don’t know how long he’ll be gone. Please pray for me and for him. Also pray for his team that is going to Cambodia. I don’t know what I should do about his trip. I know I should pray for him, but I don’t know what I should do about him going and spreading the message of Christ, without His body, the Catholic Church. Once again, any help is appreciated. Thank you all.

 

[Axion]

JCaudle:

Ok, I just talked to Neil for about an hour online. I don’t know how far I got. We both seemed to be pretty adamant in our stances. I tried to use the grammatical analysis of kecharitomene. I’ve taken Greek for the past two years, so I knew the grammatical analysis, I just didn’t know that specific point. I don’t think he quite understood what I was saying, and then he cited Romans 3:23 where Paul wrote that all have sinned. I tried to refute that by saying that infants haven’t sinned and that Christ didn’t sin, but he said that infants are born into sin, and that Christ was fully divine and therefore could not sin. So, I tried to use Christ’s full humanity to say that there was a human who had not sinned, but he would not accept Christ in the “all.” So I tried to go for even a possibility of God making a human soul without sin. He accepted that, but said that God would do that for everyone if he did it for one. I tried to refute that by saying that He did it for Adam and Eve, and somehow got to the idea of Christ as the New Adam. I think that’s in Paul’s Epistles, but I don’t know for sure. If anyone knows about that, and where the idea originated please help me.

It sounds like you did very well.

The idea of Christ beng the New Adam is indeed in Paul’s letters. Mary as corresponding 2nd Eve appears in some of the earliest writings of the Church Fathers. Justin Martyr 155 AD, and St Irenaeus 190AD.

Also the word ALL (pas) in the NT is rarely an absolute with no exceptions…
John 12:19, “All (pas) the world has gone after him!” Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ?

Mt 3:5-6, “Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL (PAS) Judea, and ALL (PAS) the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.”
Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?

Luke 2:1 “And an order went out from Caesar Augustus that ALL (PAS) the world should be counted.”
Was everyone in the whole world counted?

Unless PAS means “All - 100% without exceptions”, which it clearly does not, its use in Romans cannot be used as an argument against the sinlessness of Mary.

He is going on a mission trip to Cambodia, and I don’t know how long he’ll be gone. Please pray for me and for him. Also pray for his team that is going to Cambodia. I don’t know what I should do about his trip. I know I should pray for him, but I don’t know what I should do about him going and spreading the message of Christ, without His body, the Catholic Church. Once again, any help is appreciated. Thank you all.

Some protestant “missionaries” target local catholics/orthodox. So I would be careful in praying for his success. It may probably be better to pray for the Catholic Church in Cambodia, for its growth, and that your friend’s mission will help people to come to the Church.

 

[RyanL]

Axion offers sound advice, and proper praise. Remember, you will never convert anyone - that is the job of the Holy Spirit. Many have won arguments, but lost souls - keep in mind that you’re planting seeds. The Holy Spirit will work in His own time.

I might also offer this link to discuss Mary as the New Eve:
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0312sbs.asp
I would also try to re-emphasize Christ as a Davidic king, and Davidic kingdoms have specific offices - Prime Ministers and Queen Mothers. Once this understanding is in the back of your mind, it’s hard to read the OT without seeing it!

Good luck, and God bless both you and Niel. May you both receive God’s grace in ample measure!

RyanL

 

[mercygate]

JCaudle:

Ok, I just talked to Neil for about an hour online. . . .

Formidable, young man! Formidable!

But keep it soft. Make your points gently and with assurance, never without complete support of your position. It’s OK to say, “that’s a great [interesting, insightful, other adjective] point; let me find look into it from my own sources and see what I find.”

Prayer, patience, and the grace of the Holy Spirit will do the work. It could take decades.

 

[yqbdd]

javelin:

He’s incorrectly interpreting “More than that…” to mean “Greater than Mary…”, as though “more” meant “greater”. However, that phrase, and the word “more” specifically, can also mean “Additionally”, with the word “more” meaning “added to”. So we could paraphrase Jesus this way, which in-context makes more sense: “But Jesus said, 'Yes she is. But blessed, too, are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”. His interpretation is kinda funny to me simply because in my own speaking day-to-day, I use “more than that” to mean “additionally” all the time!

i’m not sure if the Messiah is saying hearers and keepers are greater than Mary, but i don’t think the Messiah is saying Mary is greater than the hearers and keepers. I think the Messiah is either saying they are blessed equally or negating what the certain woman said, hence the “rather” (answers.com/rather) defined as *1.) More readily; preferably: 2.) With more reason, logic, wisdom, or other justification. 3.) More exactly; more accurately: 4.) To a certain extent; somewhat: 5.) On the contrary. 6.) Chiefly British. Most certainly. Used as an emphatic affirmative reply. *

i doubt the “rather” would there is chiefly British. if you interpret “Yea rather” to mean “Yes she is. But” and “too”, then we should expect that to fit in the other places the Greek menounge is used. (blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=3304) Luk 11:28, Rom 9:20, Rom 10:18, and Phl 3:8. Let’s try with Romans 10:18.

Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.

is he saying, a.) “Yes, they have not heard, but their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world, too.”; or b.) “Rather, they have heard.” ?

a.) would agree with the question, but b.) would disagree or “answers by which what was previously said is corrected.”

there is also a similar pattern in verse 19 as in verse 18.

maybe it is like a parent saying to child when the child was warn not to play with matches, a.) “child, did i not warn you? yes, i did not warn you, but you played with matches, too.”; or b.) “child, did i not warn you? yes, i warned you, and you burned your eyelashes off playing with matches.”

 

[wcknight]

As Bishop Sheen say, no one hates the Catholic Church for what it is. They hate it for what they THINK it is.

Your friend had some very erroneous opinions about what we believe. Probably most or all of what he thinks about us have come form some Catholic bashers or some non-Catholic book.

IF (and that is a mighty big if) he really wants to learn more about what we really believe he needs to either visit these forums or get a copy of the Catholic catecism. He probably has a slew of half truths and out right lies from various sources.

There is no way you can answer all of them to his satisfaction. You can only address one or two at a time and even then he will be predisposed to think you are lying or that you are misinformed about your own faith.

He needs to get a legitimate Catholic source (and even then it is doubtful he will believe any of it but at least it will present our true beliefs.) The thing you need to convince him of, is to have an open enough mind to see that what he thinks about our faith or what he has read about us may indeed bbe totally false.

You need to ask him, who knows more about the Catholic faith, a real priest or Catholic, or some writer or preacher who is trying to ridicule or denigrate our beliefs ?

When he can answer this question with all sincerity, only then, will he even bother to investigate what we relly believe.

Before this, he will continue to list off outrageous and even insanely silly accusations.

wc

IF praying to Mary is equivalent to praying to Satan, why does Marian devotion always lead to more devotion to God and Jesus ? Why do Marian devotees, not commit more sins, why do they lead holier lives ? Why do they become better people and why do they not become more evil ?

Jesus says, the Devil does not work against himself…