Responding to Protestants Non-Denominationalists in Regards to Saints?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Melodeonist
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

Melodeonist

Guest
At work I told a Protestant coworker about the miraculous medal I found. This lead to some discussions relating to praying to Saints and how to tell somebody is a saint. I am poorly educated in regards to this, but very faithful. I was left with "umm uhh"s and failed to defend the Church as I am kind of ignorant on the subject.

She said something along the lines that the Bible says we should ask for the intercession of Jesus alone. I said something along the lines that we ask for the intercession of saints because it’s like calling somebody on the phone who lives close to God.

I feel I need some educating on defending the Church. Best option for me is to avoid all religious discussion with non Catholics.
 
I think you did well pointing that out!
I point to the Wedding at Cana when the couple ran out of wine.
Mary interceded for the couple and it was only because she asked
that Jesus turned water into wine. Think about if a friend of yours
needs something that your mother can provide. It is true that your
mother might meet their need if they ask her but how much more
so if you ask her on their behalf.

We should NOT be deciding where someone is located that is why
we pray for the deceased. ALL who reach heaven are saints!
 
Melodeonist said:
She said something along the lines that the Bible says we should ask for the intercession of Jesus alone.
Click to expand...
Ask her to show you where the Bible says that. It doesn’t. The Bible says there is one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5). What does this mean? If we take it in the strictest sense, then we have to do away even with preachers, let alone priests; but St. Paul asks (Rom. 10:12), “How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher?” When you pray for someone you are an intercessor, and in a sense, a mediator.

The meaning of “mediator,” then is not so obvious. How has the Church always understood this text? Check out the commentary by Witham and Challoner in Haydock’s Bible Commentary (scroll down to “Ver. 5-6”). Protestants of course have their Protestant Bible commentaries, which record Protestant tradition going back to the 1500s and forward. We have our commentaries which put us in touch with the Tradition of the Church going back to the Apostles.
 
We don’t pray to the Saints, rather we ask their intercession with the Lord on our behalf. Essentially, that they pray for us. It’s a very distinctive point for Catholics.

It’s really no different than asking a friend to say a prayer for you. Or the classic, put in a good word for me.
 
If the Church is truly united and one body, how can death separate us from communion with the whole Church? The belief in intercession of the saints is in no way diminishing Christ but recalling those who throughout history have always been part and parcel of the Church, who are for us today and are praying for our own welfare.

I think it would be good to emphasise that you are not putting the saints in the place of Jesus, that he is uniquely the saviour of humanity. Asking for a saint’s intercession is not a violation of that principle, it is a result of merely accepting that the Church is one body and death cannot separate us.
 
Remember though that many reformed Protestants are vehemently opposed to ANY communication with those who have died. It goes back to the Reformation. It was a hot topic, to say the least. If you want to have a discussion with someone who is from that theological tradition, you’ll have to come at it from a deeply rooted perspective.
 
Melodeonist said:
At work I told a Protestant coworker about the miraculous medal I found. This lead to some discussions relating to praying to Saints and how to tell somebody is a saint. I am poorly educated in regards to this, but very faithful. I was left with "umm uhh"s and failed to defend the Church as I am kind of ignorant on the subject.

She said something along the lines that the Bible says we should ask for the intercession of Jesus alone. I said something along the lines that we ask for the intercession of saints because it’s like calling somebody on the phone who lives close to God.

I feel I need some educating on defending the Church. Best option for me is to avoid all religious discussion with non Catholics.
Click to expand...
Salutations in Christ,
We are all Saints under construction. We haven’t completed our journey yet.
Does she ask friends to pray for her? Does her church have a prayer line? If we ask the living here to pray for us, can we not ask the living in heaven to continue our prayers. Did her love ones die forever, when they passed. Jesus rose from the dead. Can they not pray for us, if we ask.Skip purgatory, they don’t believe.
That is hard to explain and I hope it’s true. My format of my prayer to Saints and dead family members is: Dear St.Bernadette, I love you and hope you can be my spiritual sister. Could you continue praying for this need I have before the throne of the Father, where Jesus sit’s at His Right Hand? I have physical limitations which have changed my life style. I’m on meds that have me sluggish. I’m not getting to mass as I used to. Help me get courage to push myself to be more involved w my church and my God. You went through much w the TB of your leg, than lungs. I can carry the cross but not as gracefully as you. Ask Jesus if He could dispense some extra grace my way. Thank you, Sweet Bernadette.
in Jesus name, I pray.
Alice.
You are not asking her to heal me or send me grace. She continues my prayer before the throne.If I were healed out of God’s mercy, it would be God who healed me or strengthened me, not Bernadette. I would say God healed me through Bernadette’s continued intercession for me.
Just my thoughts. Too often, we say St. Jude healed me. WRONG!
in Christ’s love
Tweedlealice
 
In Revelation (Sorry I dont know the chapter and verses) John mentions a bowl on or under the alter, and this bowl
“…is filled with the prayers of the Saints”
 
Melodeonist said:
At work I told a Protestant coworker about the miraculous medal I found. This lead to some discussions relating to praying to Saints and how to tell somebody is a saint. I am poorly educated in regards to this, but very faithful. I was left with "umm uhh"s and failed to defend the Church as I am kind of ignorant on the subject.

She said something along the lines that the Bible says we should ask for the intercession of Jesus alone. I said something along the lines that we ask for the intercession of saints because it’s like calling somebody on the phone who lives close to God.

I feel I need some educating on defending the Church. Best option for me is to avoid all religious discussion with non Catholics.
Click to expand...
Ask her if she asks other Christians to pray for her. If she says, “yes, but they aren’t dead” remind her that Christians do not die, and they are as able to pray for us in heaven as they were on earth.
 
MysticalSelah said:
Ask her if she asks other Christians to pray for her. If she says, “yes, but they aren’t dead” remind her that Christians do not die, and they are as able to pray for us in heaven as they were on earth.
Click to expand...
Christians don’t die? I don’t think I’ve ever heard a person claim that before. Perhaps you mean that after a person dies, their soul lives on in the afterlife. Which is what Christians believe, as well as Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc, etc.

And your second statement is the one that reformed Christians disclaimed at the Reformation.
 
ComplineSanFran said:
Christians don’t die? I don’t think I’ve ever heard a person claim that before. Perhaps you mean that after a person dies, their soul lives on in the afterlife. Which is what Christians believe, as well as Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc, etc.

And your second statement is the one that reformed Christians disclaimed at the Reformation.
Click to expand...
This was denounced as a heresy, by St. Jerome:

calledtocommunion.com/2009/08/a-catholic-reflection-on-the-meaning-of-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-7404

Why travel to see the relics of saints or their shrines? Is this to pay respect, to offer penance, or to just to be close to those Giants who have gone before us?

The denial of the practice of venerating the relics of the saints, and denying their ability to hear our prayers was part of the heresy introduced by Eunomius and followed by Vigilantius in the fourth century, as St. Jerome tells us in his work against Vigilantius:

Does the bishop of Rome do wrong when he offers sacrifices to the Lord over the venerable bones of the dead men Peter and Paul, as we should say, but according to you, over a worthless bit of dust, and judges their tombs worthy to be Christ’s altars? And not only is the bishop of one city in error, but the bishops of the whole world, who, despite the tavern-keeper Vigilantius, enter the basilicas of the dead, in which “a worthless bit of dust and ashes lies wrapped up in a cloth,” defiled and defiling all else. Thus, according to you, the sacred buildings are like the sepulchres of the Pharisees, whitened without, while within they have filthy remains, and are full of foul smells and uncleanliness. And then he dares to expectorate his filth upon the subject and to say: “Is it the case that the souls of the martyrs love their ashes, and hover round them, and are always present, lest haply if any one come to pray and they were absent, they could not hear?”
 
pablope said:
This was denounced as a heresy, by St. Jerome:

calledtocommunion.com/2009/08/a-catholic-reflection-on-the-meaning-of-suffering/comment-page-1/#comment-7404

Why travel to see the relics of saints or their shrines? Is this to pay respect, to offer penance, or to just to be close to those Giants who have gone before us?

The denial of the practice of venerating the relics of the saints, and denying their ability to hear our prayers was part of the heresy introduced by Eunomius and followed by Vigilantius in the fourth century, as St. Jerome tells us in his work against Vigilantius:

Does the bishop of Rome do wrong when he offers sacrifices to the Lord over the venerable bones of the dead men Peter and Paul, as we should say, but according to you, over a worthless bit of dust, and judges their tombs worthy to be Christ’s altars? And not only is the bishop of one city in error, but the bishops of the whole world, who, despite the tavern-keeper Vigilantius, enter the basilicas of the dead, in which “a worthless bit of dust and ashes lies wrapped up in a cloth,” defiled and defiling all else. Thus, according to you, the sacred buildings are like the sepulchres of the Pharisees, whitened without, while within they have filthy remains, and are full of foul smells and uncleanliness. And then he dares to expectorate his filth upon the subject and to say: “Is it the case that the souls of the martyrs love their ashes, and hover round them, and are always present, lest haply if any one come to pray and they were absent, they could not hear?”
Click to expand...
I would say that, once again, Reformed Christians believe very differently. It’s not going to help to have such statements as above.
 
Dr David Anders describes his conversion through study.

One of the things he describes is his evolution on the understanding of the communion of saints:

youtu.be/R5NT32Y-Mrk

Additionally, the view of the church as one church on heaven and earth is part of this. The bible says the church is His body, there is one body, and that death cannot separate us from God.
 
ComplineSanFran said:
I would say that, once again, Reformed Christians believe very differently. It’s not going to help to have such statements as above.
Click to expand...
Truth is truth…not matter if it hurts one’s feelings.

I think you have to face the truth…disbelief in the intercession of saints was labeled as a heresy…in the early centuries of Christianity:

he denial of the practice of venerating the relics of the saints, and denying their ability to hear our prayers was part of the heresy introduced by Eunomius and followed by Vigilantius in the fourth century, as St. Jerome tells us in his work against Vigilantius:

By St. Jerome himself…who should be believed then…in your reckoning…St. Jerome or Reformed denial of the belief in saint intercession?
 
ComplineSanFran said:
Christians don’t die? I don’t think I’ve ever heard a person claim that before. Perhaps you mean that after a person dies, their soul lives on in the afterlife. Which is what Christians believe, as well as Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc, etc.

And your second statement is the one that reformed Christians disclaimed at the Reformation.
Click to expand...
A Christian who dies in Christ is alive. Yes, their body is dead, but their spirit is alive. The saints, for example, are alive. When Christ died on the cross, he conquered death (Isaiah 25:8) (1 Corinthians 15:54-55). This is why we ask for the prayers of the souls in heaven, because they are still alive, even though they are absent from the body (2 Corinthians 5:8).

As to your second statement, I’m not a reformed Christian.
 
MysticalSelah said:
As to your second statement, I’m not a reformed Christian.
Click to expand...
But the question that the OP asks is how to have a conversation with a non-Denominational Christian who does not believe the same things as RCs do about saints. It doesn’t help very much to explain that NOT believing in the saints is heretical. What DOES help is understanding what the friend does believe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top