Responding to someone who says we don't need to go to church on sunday (building)

[Singinbeauty]

Sherlock:

You say that you “just don’t believe that”, but what does that matter? What matters is what God asks of us, not your personal belief system. How does one receive communion (the reception of which is deemed so important by Paul that he says that those who receive unworthily bring condemnation upon themselves) without attending Mass? Read Hebrews 10:23-25: “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, NOT NEGLECTING TO MEET TOGETHER, as is the habit of some…” Well, you’re the “some” referred to there. And God DOES dwell in every Catholic Church, in the Tabernacle. The church building, after all, is meant to house the Tabernacle, which is why we think churches should be beautiful. And no, we don’t think that God ignores us the rest of the week (this is a very ludicrous suggestion). Indeed, most parishes have daily Mass. And there’s no need to posit a dichotomy between church-going and a devout Christian life. That’s a false dichotomy, pure and simple.

Ok…

Point #1.

You say that you “just don’t believe that”, but what does that matter? What matters is what God asks of us, not your personal belief system.

The phrase ‘just don’t believe’ is one of ‘I am confused’ most of the time. Because what is being portrayed here is confusing to me. Now, could I be misunderstanding the view of the catholic church? Most definitely. But it doesn’t look as though that is the case.

What God asks of us? To Love the Lord our God with all of our hearts and to love our neighbors. These are the greatest commandments.

Ahem… My PERSONAL belief system is that of christianity. It’s led by God who speaks to me through the Holy Spirit.

Point #2.

How does one receive communion (the reception of which is deemed so important by Paul that he says that those who receive unworthily bring condemnation upon themselves) without attending Mass?

You are seriously asking me this question? Communion can be done at the small group meeting on a wednesday night. Jesus never said that you had to wait to have a priest bless the bread before you took it to remember Him. The ‘unworthy’ comment, if you read it in context, is condemning those who eat the bread and drink the wine to be full and before everyone is to get together. I do not follow where it says that it is unworthy if it is taken in someone’s home…

Point #3.

Read Hebrews 10:23-25: “Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, NOT NEGLECTING TO MEET TOGETHER, as is the habit of some…” Well, you’re the “some” referred to there.

Not neglecting to meet together… Hmmmmm… Nope, still nothing about meeting in a certain building. I never said to not meet with others… I just said it didn’t have to be in a building. Thank you for deciding without even knowing me that I am the ‘some’ mentioned there… That clears a lot up… note sarcasm

Point #4.

And God DOES dwell in every Catholic Church, in the Tabernacle. The church building, after all, is meant to house the Tabernacle, which is why we think churches should be beautiful.

God dwells within US… that is what the bible says, what Jesus taught, and what I beleive. You cannot house God anywhere because He will not be put into a box.

Point #5.

And no, we don’t think that God ignores us the rest of the week (this is a very ludicrous suggestion). Indeed, most parishes have daily Mass. And there’s no need to posit a dichotomy between church-going and a devout Christian life. That’s a false dichotomy, pure and simple.

With the comment about God ignoring us the rest of the week as a catholic perspective I was just driving in a point. You CAN go to mass every day but do you? And if you chose to praise God during the day because something wonderful happens does that mean you have to run to the church to do it? No. This was the point I was making.

 

[Therese_Martin]

General reminder:

Please keep posts charitable. Any further demonstration of a lack of charity will be grounds for closing the thread.

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**BTW, it is helpful to the moderation staff if participants do not quote posts they would like to see the staff act upon. It makes clean-up more time-consuming and difficult for the moderators. Thanks! **

 

[Singinbeauty]

Sherlock:

But how do you now that the Bible is the inspired Word of God? Because it says so? But that would be circular thinking: “How do you know the Bible is inspired? Because it says so. But how can you trust what it says? Because it’s inspired.” Tell me, what is your solution to that problem?

So you don’t believe that the words that Peter wrote down and is recorded in the bible was inspired by God? Come on… You can’t seriously be saying that…

Your second comment is offensive, and I will report it to the moderators. The only clergyman I know that ever molested anyone was a PROTESTANT, who molested my best friend’s little girl. So don’t throw that garbage in our face, when you know perfectly well that the majority of priests (96% or higher) have never done such things, and that non-Catholic ministers have approximately the same rates of abuse. It’s called an ad hominem argument, and if you want to make a point, you’d better discover more sensible, reasonable, and logical ways to get your point across.

It happens EVERYWHERE… I was merely making the point that just because a priest says it is so I will not take it at face value… Sure there are pastors who have done this… Will I believe everything that comes out of his mouth as truth? No. Because his life is contradicting his words. That is the point I was making. The comment may have offended you (but why did it offend you? I wasn’t even talking about you) and others and I apologize… looking back it was a little crass but I was trying to make a point.

 

[Sherlock]

Siningbeauty,

Your comments in quotes, mine follow:

“The phrase ‘just don’t believe’ is one of ‘I am confused’ most of the time. Because what is being portrayed here is confusing to me. Now, could I be misunderstanding the view of the catholic church? Most definitely. But it doesn’t look as though that is the case.”

I see a big difference between “I just don’t believe” and “I am confused”. Perhaps it would help if you were careful to write just what you mean.

“What God asks of us? To Love the Lord our God with all of our hearts and to love our neighbors. These are the greatest commandments.”

You’re forgetting the Third Commandment, to honor the Lord’s Day. This has always been done by assembling together for the purpose of public worship. One criterion used for deciding what was to be in the Bible was a particular books use in such worship—the liturgy. The Ten Commandments were not done away with.

“Ahem… My PERSONAL belief system is that of christianity. It’s led by God who speaks to me through the Holy Spirit.”

My personal belief system in Christianity as well. But if your interpretation of just what that belief entails is different than mine; and different from another Protestant denomination down the street; and we all claim the Bible as support for our contradictory beliefs, who is right? If we are all right, then there is no truth. Either the Holy Spirit is doing a lousy job of guiding us into truth, or we should be listening to the teaching authority that Jesus gvae us—His Church.

“You are seriously asking me this question? Communion can be done at the small group meeting on a wednesday night. Jesus never said that you had to wait to have a priest bless the bread before you took it to remember Him. The ‘unworthy’ comment, if you read it in context, is condemning those who eat the bread and drink the wine to be full and before everyone is to get together. I do not follow where it says that it is unworthy if it is taken in someone’s home…”

The priest does not merely “bless” the bread. You obviously do not believe in the Real Presence of Our Lord in the Eucharist, unlike the early Church and the Church through the centuries until recent times. And no, you’re misunderstanding the “unworthy” quote—though certainly eating merely to be full without discerning the body is unworthy. This might help: catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

"Not neglecting to meet together… Hmmmmm… Nope, still nothing about meeting in a certain building. I never said to not meet with others… I just said it didn’t have to be in a building. Thank you for deciding without even knowing me that I am the ‘some’ mentioned there… That clears a lot up… note sarcasm "

You’re forgetting the Tabernacle. Of course, a persecuted Church would have to be stealthy, but why would Christians not house the Tabernacle in a worthy manner, as our Jewish forebears did?

“God dwells within US… that is what the bible says, what Jesus taught, and what I beleive. You cannot house God anywhere because He will not be put into a box”

Then how come God dictated all of that stuff about the way to build the Tabernacle, and approved Solomon’s building of a Temple to house it? Like many Protestants, you are suffering from a case of “either/or”— It HAS to be a building, or it HAS to be in one’s heart, but apparently God can’t do both, in your eyes.

“With the comment about God ignoring us the rest of the week as a catholic perspective I was just driving in a point. You CAN go to mass every day but do you? And if you chose to praise God during the day because something wonderful happens does that mean you have to run to the church to do it? No. This was the point I was making.”

Again, it’s not either/or. I praise God all day long (or try to!) I also participate in the Mass, and so receive Jesus Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity as much as I can.

 

[Sherlock]

“So you don’t believe that the words that Peter wrote down and is recorded in the bible was inspired by God? Come on… You can’t seriously be saying that…”

No, I didn’t say that, so there’s no need to act as if I did. Or was this merely your attempt to ignore my question? Please answer the question.

“It happens EVERYWHERE… I was merely making the point that just because a priest says it is so I will not take it at face value… Sure there are pastors who have done this… Will I believe everything that comes out of his mouth as truth? No. Because his life is contradicting his words. That is the point I was making. The comment may have offended you (but why did it offend you? I wasn’t even talking about you) and others and I apologize… looking back it was a little crass but I was trying to make a point.”

First, ad hominem attacks are a feeble way of making a point. Try something new…logic, for example. But anyway, you should keep in mind Jesus’s words regarding the hypocritical Pharisees: he doesn’t say to ignore them because they’re not practicing what they preach (which is what you are saying you do). No, he says to listen to them and do what they say, but not to do as they do. A faulty messenger does not render a true message false, is the point he’s making, and one needs to search for truth instead of a perfect messenger.

 

[Singinbeauty]

“So you don’t believe that the words that Peter wrote down and is recorded in the bible was inspired by God? Come on… You can’t seriously be saying that…”

No, I didn’t say that, so there’s no need to act as if I did. Or was this merely your attempt to ignore my question? Please answer the question.

But this was the point I was making… You can’t say that the bible wasn’t inspired without saying that the authors aren’t inspired. If you think the authors were inspired then you have to believe that the bible is inspired because the people who wrote it are inspired… Wait… hehe… that sounds like it goes in circles but you can’t have one without the other. You can’t say that the bible isn’t the inspired word of God if you believe that the authors were inspired by God. They wrote what they were inspired by God to write. And who wrote a lot in the New Testament? Peter. And he is the first pope of the catholic church right? So by saying that the bible is not the inspired word of God then you have to say that Peter was not inspired by God in what he wrote. That was the reasoning behind my post…

“So you don’t believe that the words that Peter wrote down and is recorded in the bible was inspired by God? Come on… You can’t seriously be saying that…”

 

[mercygate]

Singin’, I don’t know how conversant you are with the Catholic theology of the Eucharist – it seems that you don’t quite have all the dots connected in the way Catholics do.

In an earlier post, for example, you say that we do not need a Priest to bless bread . . . Catholics have a very different view of the matter. The ministry of the Church, as witnessed throughout the New Testament is initiated by Jesus at the Last Supper, and affirmed by his breathing on them on Easter night, committing to these men the power to forgive sins. To the ministerial priesthood alone (as distinct from the universal priesthood we all share as Christians) consists of bishops, priests (presbyters or elders is the NT word – same as priest) and deacons. Through this threefold ministry the authenticity of the Eucharist is maintained. We believe – because Jesus said so – that the consecrated “bread” becomes the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

We come together because we know that we are not “church” unless we come together. Jesus does humble himself in this great mystery to be placed by human hands “in a box” (though as you surely realize, it does not contain Him entirely but only in this particular way where He is present in the Sacrament).

You express your thoughts in a way that is common for Protestants. (I should know; I was one.) You seem to feel that if God is present to us in a small group, if he is in our hearts, then he cannot be present in the Blessed Sacrament. Catholic theology does not do that. With us it is rarely either/or but nearly always both/and.

 

[mercygate]

Singinbeauty:

But this was the point I was making… You can’t say that the bible wasn’t inspired without saying that the authors aren’t inspired. If you think the authors were inspired then you have to believe that the bible is inspired because the people who wrote it are inspired… Wait… hehe… that sounds like it goes in circles but you can’t have one without the other. You can’t say that the bible isn’t the inspired word of God if you believe that the authors were inspired by God. They wrote what they were inspired by God to write. And who wrote a lot in the New Testament? Peter. And he is the first pope of the catholic church right? So by saying that the bible is not the inspired word of God then you have to say that Peter was not inspired by God in what he wrote. That was the reasoning behind my post…

Where do you get the idea that Catholics do not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God? Perhaps your interlocutor was nudging you to come up with the reason you believe the Bible is inspired. Catholics can be cocky about that. We know why we believe it. Often we find – and I am not placing you in this category – that Protestants are so convinced the Bible is inspired that they do not question why they believe that.

 

[Sherlock]

mercygate:

Where do you get the idea that Catholics do not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God? Perhaps your interlocutor was nudging you to come up with the reason you believe the Bible is inspired. Catholics can be cocky about that. We know why we believe it. Often we find – and I am not placing you in this category – that Protestants are so convinced the Bible is inspired that they do not question why they believe that.

Heh heh heh…yes, that’s exactly what the interlocuter was trying to do. But I’ll try to be less cocky in the future. God bless.

 

[Sherlock]

Singinbeauty:

But this was the point I was making… You can’t say that the bible wasn’t inspired without saying that the authors aren’t inspired. If you think the authors were inspired then you have to believe that the bible is inspired because the people who wrote it are inspired… Wait… hehe… that sounds like it goes in circles but you can’t have one without the other. You can’t say that the bible isn’t the inspired word of God if you believe that the authors were inspired by God. They wrote what they were inspired by God to write. And who wrote a lot in the New Testament? Peter. And he is the first pope of the catholic church right? So by saying that the bible is not the inspired word of God then you have to say that Peter was not inspired by God in what he wrote. That was the reasoning behind my post…

But I never said that the Bible wasn’t inspired. I asked you to give me a non-circular explanation of why you think it is. End of story.

 

[Catilieth]

Singin,
think logically, not emotionally.
Only God has authority in and of himself. All other authority is derived from elsewhere. For example, the President derives his authority from the constitution, and the constitution from the assent of the people.

Jesus did not write a book, nor is there any evidence anywhere that he ever told anyone to write a book about him. Therefore, there is no book (speaking especially about the New Testament) that has direct authority from God(I’m not talking of inspiration, but of authority). Therefore, the book we call the Bible, esecially the New Testament, has no authority in and of itself. It cannot authorize itself because it has no authority to do so.

Jesus did authorize a Church…he was very specific about it, and even designated who was to be its first leader…Peter. The Church existed, worshiped, taught, governed for centuries before there existed a New Testament. Because God (Jesus), who does have authority, gave authority to his Church (authority to bind and loose), that Church does have the ability to authorize the New Testament. Therefore, as Catholics, we believe in the Bible because the Catholic Church says so. No need to go in circles, it really is a straight line.

God has always commanded that worship requires a sacrifice(a living thing was required to be sacrificed,killed). From the time of Cain and Able, a sacrifice was required from some sort of altar. The Jews, following God’s commands, offered up sacrifices to God. When Jesus came, He became “the Lamb of God”, a very specific Jewish term for the lamb sacrificed at Passover. The sacrifice of the “Lamb of God” at Calvary is the perfect sacrifice to God, and it is made present each time Mass is offered. That is why worship in Church, at the* Holy Sacrifice of the Mass * is a world apart from “just me and God”.

Just me and God does not have God physically, in the flesh present. That is what happens at Mass.

 

[Philthy]

Singinbeauty:

Why do people take other’s posts and break them up?

So it is clear precisely what is being responded to. Here’s a perfect example: I said,“Your type of worship requires only you - ever” to which you replied…

Singinbeauty:

You are mistaken here… MY kind of worship requires only ME & GOD. If it were just myself that would just be silly wouldn’t it?

Actually, it would be impossible according to this…

Singinbeauty:

He dwells in US … God is there because you are there.

So dear, wherever you are, as you say, God is there, right? So how does this contradict my statement that all you need is you, since you claim that wherever you are God is there as well?

Singinbeauty:

It isn’t irrelevent because it was…showing why I believe that we don’t have to go to a church to worship.

This is my peeve. Why can people not take a second to read what someone writes and think about why they wrote it? Do you truly not lack a little intellectual humility? Here, let me say it again: NO ONE PROPOSED THAT YOU HAVE TO GO TO A CHURCH TO “WORSHIP” GOD. So there is no need for you to refute that idea - which is what much of your post was about. Therefore, when you start to defend against a statement or idea that no one has alleged, its irrelevent to the thread, and only significant in that it demonstrates that you lack an understanding of some of the intricasies and dynamics of what the actual topic is.
The sad part is that it means you have not understood, at all, what I said. I tried hard to be explicit, not introducing too many ideas at once. This thread is about why Catholics believe there are times that you do need to go to Mass. You should have been able to follow that there are several forms of worship and that Catholics make a special distinction for one form of worship - Holy Communion aka “the marriage supper of the Lamb”. Christ speaks of this unique event. Paul also speaks of the uniqueness of this form of worship as do the early Church Fathers, including St Ignatious who was a disciple of John the apostle, who wrote the Gospel of John, which includes the most strongly worded part of Scripture consistent with Catholic and early Church opinion on the Eucharist - Chapter 6. You, however, interpret “This is my body” to mean “this is not actually my body”. And, you interpret “unless you eat my body and drink my blood you have no life in you” to mean something different as well.

Singinbeauty:

But to some, they cannot afford to go to ‘mass’ every Sunday or any other time of the week.

Some? You mean like 1 in 250,000 people? Mass is free. Technically, its not limited to Sunday only - its the Sabbath and that includes saturday evening as well. And anyhow, there was no talk of having anything of your own in the early Church. Everything they had they brought to the Apostles and laid it at there feet and each received according to their need. This is how you believe we should be living, right?

Christians met in homes in the early church.

All of them, at all times? How do you know they didn’t meet in large groups as well?

Singinbeauty:

I feel like you can get a whole lot more out of worship in a small group than you can in a big one.

I understand what you mean, and I agree. I suppose some would disagree. Do you see, however, that that observation is not, of necessity, related to the thread? Group SIZE does not effect the NECESSITY of going. This thread is about the necessity of going, not what the incidentals should be.

Singinbeauty:

I do not believe that if they had been able to come out of hiding, they would have built a big huge building to meet in.

Well that’s something to bank on! Why take a look at the early Church and what they ACTUALLY DID over time when we can simply ask you?

Singinbeauty:

If I believed that He wasn’t with me except when I was in a church building I would be very depressed.

This is getting ridiculous. Please show me where ANYONE has suggested that they believe “He (isn’t) with me except when I (am) in a church building” No one has said that. You are not listening or not thinking or both.

Phil

 

[sara888]

**Singerbeauty said:You are mistaken here… MY kind of worship requires only ME & GOD. If it were just myself that would just be silly wouldn’t it?/**B]

**God is all around us, with us all the time, however if one chooses to pray by himself, rather than going to church as God commanded one to do that is his/her free will.

The bible does not say stay at home and pray, it clearly states “remember the sabbath day and keep it Holy”

"
Jesus also said to partake of the body and blood in rememberance and for the forgiveness of sins."

Some Christians just the hear the word, others hear and follow the Lords words**.

Sara

 

[Tonks40]

Catholics have a wonderful gift in that they can pray anywhere, in any liturgical form, at any time. They have available to them (in many places) Adoration of the Blessed Eucharist, some 24-hours-a-day, in which the faithful can come and sit in front of Our Lord to worship and meditate. They have the Rosary, which can be said anywhere, at anytime. Not to mention Novenas and the Liturgy of the Hours.

But our greatest form of worship is the Mass. We come together as a community of believers to praise the teachings of our Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ. We do this on holy ground, our Church, where the Lord resides, not only in the building, and amongst the gatherers, but in our hearts as well. When Christ told Peter that he will build his Church, I firmly believe that not only did he meant the Body of Christ as being all who believe in him, but He also envisioned a place where all who believed in Him can come together in worship and praise. I really can’t see how one can seperate the two.

The Catholic Church is very whole, very encompassing, very complete. You would have to really take the time and sincerely study it’s teachings, keeping the focus on having God open your heart and your mind to it.

 

[matthew1624]

Thank you all for your replies. For clarification, I was not implying that God must be worshipped in a building but rather wondered why some christians (non-denom flavor) want to toss out everything they don’t like. The NT is clear that the early church met at the synagogues until they were tossed out. They then gathered in homes but completed/fulfilled their worship with the celebration of the mass (i.e. “they devoted themselves to the breaking of the bread”). I believe in Hebrews, Paul instructs us not to forsake the assembly and as it has been stated already, we (catholics) can celebrate mass anywhere, it does not have to be within four walls. What is so contradicting about this is the fact that this close acquaintance of ours insisted that we forgo Sunday mass attendance in order to attend one of their church services which ironically was in a church building. Our response…“the church is just a building, why would we want to go there?”.

God Bless…and thanks again for your (name removed by moderator)ut…

 

[matthew1624]

Tonks40:

Catholics have a wonderful gift in that they can pray anywhere, in any liturgical form, at any time. They have available to them (in many places) Adoration of the Blessed Eucharist, some 24-hours-a-day, in which the faithful can come and sit in front of Our Lord to worship and meditate. They have the Rosary, which can be said anywhere, at anytime. Not to mention Novenas and the Liturgy of the Hours.

But our greatest form of worship is the Mass. We come together as a community of believers to praise the teachings of our Redeemer, the Lord Jesus Christ. We do this on holy ground, our Church, where the Lord resides, not only in the building, and amongst the gatherers, but in our hearts as well. When Christ told Peter that he will build his Church, I firmly believe that not only did he meant the Body of Christ as being all who believe in him, but He also envisioned a place where all who believed in Him can come together in worship and praise. I really can’t see how one can seperate the two.

The Catholic Church is very whole, very encompassing, very complete. You would have to really take the time and sincerely study it’s teachings, keeping the focus on having God open your heart and your mind to it.

Tonks40, I really enjoyed your comments. Great response!