Response Needed

[thomann2]

I’m in dicussions with my neighbor who is a Southern Baptist. Does any one have suggestion on a response to this garbage and distortion. This is what she wrote to me after she she wasn’t able to answer questions I had on her interpretation of the bible. I’m just wondering if someone has responses for this garbage already or do I need to do the work and refute each piece with catechism and catholic answers. Any help refuting peices or all of this would be appreciated. This is PART I -I will send part two as well.

Would this be a synopsis of your beliefs?
Catholicism teaches that there is much a person can and must do to help pay the penalty and gain entrance to heaven. He must be baptized. He must receive the sacraments. He must expiate his own sins by suffering here on earth and/or in purgatory. Prior to his death he must be absolved (by a priest) of every previously unconfessed mortal sin. When a Catholic claims that he too believes in salvation by grace alone, he is saying that through the Roman Catholic Church, through its saints and its sacraments, God provides the grace necessary for him to do the works required to merit eternal life. Yet the Bible teaches that salvation is “through faith…not of works…it is the gift of God” (Eph 2:8-9). If you pay for a gift, it’s no longer a gift; man’s works can have no part in his redemption. Yet if a Catholic were to believe this biblical truth, his Church would condemn him. The “sacred, infallible, and irrevocable” decrees of the Council of Trent declare (and every Catholic therefore must obey or be condemned to hell) that “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, let him be anathema *.” 2

PURGATORY - MAYBE…MAYBE NOT…

Catholics are taught that the cleansing fires of purgatory exist for the punishment of their sins “so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.” 3 Again, this is a teaching which every Catholic must believe (even though it rejects Christ’s sacrifice in full payment for sin): “If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.” 4

NO PICKING & CHOOSING

The Catholic Church imposes damnations (more than 100 specific anathemas are listed) upon Catholics who decide not to accept some of its teachings and practices. While liberal, lax, and even biblically leaning Catholics attempt to justify their contrary-to-official-belief views, they are mutinying against their Church which (according to Roman Catholic dogma) is their only means to heaven. The laws of the Roman Catholic Church, however, explicitly condemn those who hold “mutinous” beliefs. In other words, if a Catholic hopes to gain eternal life as a Catholic, he must abide strictly by his Church’s proclaimed infallible rules. This manmade religious system does not tolerate a pick-and-choose approach to its faith.

 

[thomann2]

I’m continuing…

NO PICKING & CHOOSING
The Catholic Church imposes damnations (more than 100 specific anathemas are listed) upon Catholics who decide not to accept some of its teachings and practices. While liberal, lax, and even biblically leaning Catholics attempt to justify their contrary-to-official-belief views, they are mutinying against their Church which (according to Roman Catholic dogma) is their only means to heaven. The laws of the Roman Catholic Church, however, explicitly condemn those who hold “mutinous” beliefs. In other words, if a Catholic hopes to gain eternal life as a Catholic, he must abide strictly by his Church’s proclaimed infallible rules. This manmade religious system does not tolerate a pick-and-choose approach to its faith.

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE “LEFT-OVER” EUCHARIST?

Most evangelicals (other than former Catholics) are not aware of how Catholic beliefs and practices critically differ from the Bible’s teachings. For example, the Holy Eucharist, which Baptist Bill Clinton and Methodist Hillary received at a Catholic Church in Africa not too long ago, is the antithesis of the biblical remembrance of Christ’s death and resurrection instituted by our Lord. This Catholic ritual, referred to as “the Sacrament of sacraments,” is a total rejection of who Christ is and what He accomplished on Calvary’s hill. In the Mass the priest (and only a priest) is said to transform a wafer of bread into "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."5 “For in the sacrifice of the Mass Our Lord is immolated [killed as in a sacrifice] when `he begins to be present sacramentally as the spiritual food of the faithful under the appearances of bread and wine.’” 6 The Catholic Church teaches that Christ is fully present in each of the wafers—millions offered simultaneously around the world each day—for as long as they exist (even though the leftover consecrated bread/body often putrefies—in direct contradiction to the biblical prophecies that His body would never experience corruption).7

ARE CATHOLICS AS GUILTY AS THE JEWS WHOM THEY BLAME?

If you have ever wondered why some of the great teachers/preachers of biblical faith have referred to the Catholic Mass and Eucharist as an “abomination before God,” and why many saints of old chose to be burned at the stake rather than give credence to such a terrible perversion, I hope it’s becoming tragically clear. What every Catholic is participating in is an occult ritual in which a man calls down the resurrected and glorified Christ from heaven, changes His body into a pre-crucified, pre-resurrected body, then turns bread into His body and blood, and kills this Christ on an altar. It is beyond ironic that daily Catholic priests do what their Church historically has blamed and persecuted the Jews for having done once.

 

[thomann2]

CHRIST’S DEATH - ONCE FOR ALL OR EVERY DAY?

Since this Eucharistic ritual claims to “re-present” all that Christ suffered for our sins, Jesus must undergo the same experience millions of times every day. Worse yet than the unending brutality and mockery He must suffer is the continual experience of the agony of separation from His Father, which caused Jesus to “sweat…as it were great drops of blood…” and to appeal to His Father to “remove this cup from me” if it were possible (Lk 22:44,42). Hebrews is unequivocal in rejecting this ritualistic Catholic travesty: “[Christ] needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice…for this he did once, when he offered up himself”; “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many”; “By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Heb 7:27; 9:28; 10:10). And Peter, regarded by Catholics as their first pope, writes, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit” (1 Pt 3:18).

AUGUSTINE

All Catholic communicants must believe they are eating the “real” flesh and blood of Jesus, otherwise they commit a mortal sin: “If anyone denies that in the sacrament of the most Holy Eucharist are contained truly, really and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ, but says that He is in it only as a sign, or figure or force, let him be anathema.” 8 One of the many reasons we cannot take John 6:53 literally (“Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you”) is that doing so would constitute cannibalism and the drinking of blood, which both the Old and New Testament specifically forbid. Even Augustine, the father of modern Catholicism, rejected the literal interpretation for this reason.9

CONSECRATED HOST

Finally, Catholics must worship the “consecrated host” (wafer) as God: “If anyone says that in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is not to be adored with the worship of latria [worship given only to God]…or is not to be set publicly before the people to be adored and that the adorers thereof are idolators, let him be anathema.” 10 The Catholic weekly Our Sunday Visitor reported that one of Promise Keepers’ top evangelical executives was so overwhelmed by the “Real Presence of Jesus” at a Franciscan University Eucharistic Holy Hour adoration that he was compelled to prostrate himself before the sacred host.11

BIBLE

The Bible teaches that a person is saved by faith alone in Christ alone. 1 This is so because only Christ could pay the penalty for our sin, which He did in full. There is then nothing we can do for our salvation except put our trust in Him. Any attempt to add anything to our Lord’s finished work on the cross 1) is a denial of His complete atonement, 2) is a rejection of His “free gift” of eternal life, and 3) presumes that we can pay something for our salvation, which is impossible. Why impossible? Because the penalty for sin is death, spiritual separation from God forever (Gn 2:17). That infinite penalty cannot be paid in part. Death, physical or spiritual, doesn’t function on a partial basis you’re either dead or you’re not. Only Christ can save us from so great a penalty.

 

[Joanna]

Buy her her own copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (paperback) and suggest that if her questions are serious then here is a serious answer well worth her time and eternity.

 

[yinekka]

I think that you have to ask if, when you answer this woman’s objections, she will correspond with the grace the Holy Spirit is offering her and convert to Catholicism. If you think that the answer is yes it might be worth your while to continue. If the answer is no and she will probably just come up with more anti Catholic stuff then you are wasting your time. You would be better to read more to develop your spirituality and interior life than by wasting your time with this person. Continue to pray for her though.

Joanna has advised that this person read the Catechism of the Catholic Church and I think that this is a very good idea. Some more books she might find useful are:

Catholicism for Dummies, Frs Trigilio and Brighenti.
Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine - Archbishop Sheehan, edited by Fr Peter Joseph
Defend the Faith - Christ the Teacher Series Volume IV. Can be read online at www.lumenverum.org

If you wish to continue speaking with this person have her give you her queries one at a time; this is much more managable. You might find that the websites of Catholic Answers, Nazareth Resource Centre (Jimmy Akin’s site), Dave Armstrong’s site helpful.

Good luck

 

[Scott_Waddell]

This is what I call Death-by-a-Thousand-Objections. The idea is to overwhelm you with every objection conceivable. Thing is, most of these are paper thin and ancient.

Best thing to do is not try to answer all of these at once. Ask which she thinks is the most compelling objection and work just on that.

Scott

 

[Tom]

My question to you is; are you prepared to answer her questions? If not, then you should thank her very much for making you get off the couch and learn about your own Church. She is a blessing in disguise. If you are ready, congratulations. You know how to proceed, take the objections one at a time, prepare well, and teach her. She is falling under the common misconceptions of so many. As I read the laundry list, I had to chuckle, the typical objection and misconceptions. Teach her we’re not the evil Church she’s been taught.

 

[JimG]

You and your neighbor are discussing this by exchanging letters?? Sounds like maybe she is just giving you anti-Catholic tracts. If so, get your own Catholic tracts right here.

 

[aSaintoneday]

I am a recent Catholic Apologetic, but i was reading through all that this southern baptist thought were Catholic beliefs. The saying from Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, “*There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.” *
The southern baptist it seems to me, has a very twisted preception of the Catholic Church and Catholic beliefs.

There are many websites that you can direct her towards. such as www.catholic.com ofcourse, home.inreach.com/bstanley/index.htm,
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/

A taste of St. Thomas Aquinas theology. and catholicoutlook.com/, plus ofcourse the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Peace and Joy!

 

[mtr01]

Wow, that’s a whole lot of stuff to respond to, but that is a favorite tactic of those arguing against the Catholic faith…throw out a bunch of issues in rapid succession, which require a bit of time to respond to.

As far as her initial point, sola fide, or salvation by faith alone. The way I would respond is by pointing out that this doctrine is taken exclusively from a misinterpretation of St. Paul’s letters. When he talks of justification not being from works, he is talking about “works of the law”, i.e., the Law of Moses. In the verse she quoted from Ephesians, take a look at what Paul says a couple of verses later. In verses 11-14. He is specifically talks about circumcision; particulary uncircumcized Gentiles. He is writing for a purpose, he is answering the Judaizers who wanted Gentile converts to Christianity to be circumcised first. Thus Paul says justification is not by works of the law (circumcision, eating only ritually clean food, etc.)

If one looks at the entire New Testament, the truth of the Catholic position is evident. In James 2:16-20 it is made clear that faith without works is dead faith.

Also, look at what our Lord Jesus Christ Himself said (I often wonder why the sola fide crowd never quote the words of Christ ) Our Lord, in Matthew 19 says:

16 And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting? 17 Who said to him: Why asketh thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He said to him: Which? And Jesus said: Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness. 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 20 The young man saith to him: All these I have kept from my youth, what is yet wanting to me? 21 Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come follow me. 22 And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions. (DRV)

Notice what Christ said. In order to enter into eternal life, we must keep the commandments. He also told the youth to go sell what he had and give it to the poor (selling selling a kind of good “work”?) Keeping the commandment implicity entails works also. Nothing about “faith alone” is mentioned by our Lord.

Further, He says in Matthew 7:

21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. (DRV)

This seems to indicate that not everyone who has faith (says “Lord, Lord”) will enter heaven. However, those who **do **the will of the Father will enter heaven. “Doing” implies an action, hence works.

Again, looking at the entirety of the New Testament (especially the words of our Lord and Savior Himself), and not just a misinterpretation of Paul’s letters, we see that works are necessary to enter heaven. The truth of the Catholic position reflects the fullness of Scripture.

 

[Exporter]

Thomann,

The lady is using Protestant language with you. It’s like she is speaking French and you are speaking English.

One thing I learned when talking to a Baptist. THEY WILL NEVER agree with you even if you show it to them in the Bible and the Catechism. They will contenue to laugh at you behind your back.

They are Sola Scriptura ( Bible only) they spit on our Tradition ( the sayings and writtings of the early Church Fathers). They actually think they can interprept the Bible better than the Bishops!!

I would avoid the Baptist lady. She wouldn’t belive you if Jesus came back and told her that you were correct.

 

[mtr01]

Ok after all that, I think those who posted before me are also on the right track. There are many great apologetics sites that will give you the info that you need (however, It was fun stretching my apologetics muscles briefly). Another site you may also find helpful is John Martignoni’s “Bible Christian Society” website. The 2 minute apologetics series is excellent (and if you direct your friend here, the name of the site is innocuous enough to Protestants). Here’s the link:

biblechristiansociety.com/default.asp

 

[Joanna]

JimG:

Sounds like maybe she is just giving you anti-Catholic tracts. If so, get your own Catholic tracts right here.

I love this one! :yup:

 

[Fidelis]

Scott Waddell:

This is what I call Death-by-a-Thousand-Objections. The idea is to overwhelm you with every objection conceivable. Thing is, most of these are paper thin and ancient.

Best thing to do is not try to answer all of these at once. Ask which she thinks is the most compelling objection and work just on that.

Scott

I agree. Don’t let her give you a book to read that she just cut and pasted from an anti-Catholic website expecting you to be overwhelmed and admit you don’t have an answer. Tell her to be resonable and ask one question (in her own words), and you’ll be happy to discuss it with her. That way you’ll have a chance to research it, grasp it for yourself, then present it to her in *your * own words.

Either that or give her Karl Keating’s book Catholicism and Fundamentalism (if she’ll read it). If she’s going to give you a veritable book, you may as well give her one too.

 

[Writer]

Some excerpts below from letters I wrote to a friend who is an anti-Catholic Protestant.

The issue of Purgatory is not as big a deal as Protestants believe. No one knows whether we will even be conscious of the time spent there; it may be concluded in the blink of an eye. I think of it as simply the process of stepping through the gate and into heaven beyond. Revelation 21:27 reminds us that “nothing impure will ever enter it {heaven}…” Purgatory is simply the process of cleansing the Spirit in preparation to stand before God. If anything, it takes the prospect of standing in God’s presence more seriously than the Protestants. Our priest mentioned that Purgatory has been badly misunderstood by non-Catholic’s ever since the rise in popularity of Dante’s Inferno. There are also other Biblical passages in support of Purgatory. 1 Corinthians is another passage which appears to support a belief in Purgatory. 2 Timothy also contains a prayer for a person who has died, which Catholics believe further supports the concept of Purgatory.

Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble - each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is
burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. [1 Cor 3:12-15]

May the Lord grant mercy to the household of Onesiphorus… may the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that Day… [2 Tim 1:16 & 18]

One last note on the concept of Purgatory. It is a part of heaven and not hell. It is not a punishment, but a purification. For further insight into this, look up how many references there are in the Bible concerning the fire of heaven–from Old Testament through the New. (See Matthew 3:11, 1 Thessalonians 5:19, and Acts 2:3.)

***I believe in purgatory… Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Would it not beak the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know.’ ‘Even so, sir.’ - C.S.Lewis ***

Regarding the confession of sins to the priest, this is one of the
most challenging doctrines for me personally. The Catholic Church believes in what is called Apostolic Succession. That is, Saint Peter, the rock on which Christ’s Church is built (Matthew 16:18), is considered as the first pope. Matthew 16:19 and John 20:21-23 (and other verses) make it clear that apostles were given the authority to forgive sins as servants of Christ. As priests are ordained (indirectly) by the Pope himself, this authority is then conveyed to them. As I understand it, confession is a way of dealing with our more serious transgressions. If one analyzes it, though, the Sacrament of Confession strengthens the sense of Christian community and permits the sinner to do penance to begin to right his wrongs. This gets into the whole issue of works vs faith, which is also misconstrued by Protestants. If one reads James, for example, works will exist as a reflection of the faith within. If you have the faith, but don’t display it in any way, what good are you to the Christian community? Just like you can’t have a flame without light, you can’t have true faith without works. (If you want to read more, see newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm.)

 

[jimmy]

thomann2:

Would this be a synopsis of your beliefs?
Catholicism teaches that there is much a person can and must do to help pay the penalty and gain entrance to heaven. … Prior to his death he must be absolved (by a priest) of every previously unconfessed mortal sin. … Yet the Bible teaches that salvation is “through faith…not of works…it is the gift of God” (Eph 2:8-9). If you pay for a gift, it’s no longer a gift; man’s works can have no part in his redemption. Yet if a Catholic were to believe this biblical truth, his Church would condemn him. The “sacred, infallible, and irrevocable” decrees of the Council of Trent declare (and every Catholic therefore must obey or be condemned to hell) that “If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, …be anathema *.” 2 *
Hello thomann2. To this first question this is my answer. The Catholic Church does not say that yo have to do anything to pay for your sins and be saved. We were saved by Christs sacrifice at Calvary. But we must try to conform to the way of Christ. Salvation. By doing good works you are attempting to try to conform to Christ.

In the bible Jesus compares Heaven to a great wedding reception, where all who are invited are required to wear a white robe. There is one man who shows up wearing a brown robe. People ask him, “Why are you not wearing a white robe.” He responds, “because I do not have one.” In this parable the white robe is supposed to represent purity. The brown robe represents sin and impurity. When we enter Heaven we must be perfect, so while we are here on earth our job is to try to conform to the love of Christ and to shed the hate from ourselves. By doing good works it helps us to conform to Christ more and more and more each time we do good. In James 2 he talks about faith without works. He says

24

Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
He also says that faith without works is dead. James is very clear about faith and works.

Jesus also tells the rich man that he must follow the commandments in order to get into Heaven. It is a work to follow the commandments. He also says that you must love the lord your God with all your heart, all your mind, all your strength, and all your soul. To love is also a work. Love is a verb. It is something we do.

There is nowhere that says that you are saved by faith alone. If you can find that in the bible I will give you any amount of money you want. The only place where faith and only are found beside eachother in the entire bible is in the verse quoted above. It specifically says not by faith alone.

You quote Eph 2;8-9 and say that we are not saved by faith also. But verse 10 says

10

• For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them.

This is clear that we are meant to do good works. Paul also says in Romans 2.

5 But according to thy hardness and impenitent heart, thou treasurest up to thyself wrath, against the day of wrath, and revelation of the just judgment of God. 6

• Who will render to every man according to his works. 7 To them indeed, who according to patience in good work, seek glory and honour and incorruption, eternal life: 8 But to them that are contentious, and who obey not the truth, but give credit to iniquity, wrath and indignation. 9 Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek.

This is very clear that we are judged by our works.

So, your claim that we are saved by faith alone is not only unbiblical but it is completely anti-bible. If you can show me one place that says we are saved by faith alone then maybe I will agree, but I am very confident that you will never find that verse.

 

[Writer]

Lastly… This Baptist appears to perhaps be well read. If that’s the case is she familiar with C.S. Lewis’ writings? Many Protestants, as I myself was, place a great deal of weight in what he has to say on the Christian faith. Read C.S. Lewis and the Catholic Church by a Catholic scholar named Joseph Pearce. Lewis was much more Catholic in his thinking than was he Anglican–at least by today’s standards. Does she hold great respect for Rev. Billy Graham? Bring his possitive comments regarding the Catholic Church to her attention. Below was sent to me from another Catholic Forum member, and perhaps it will be interesting to you. (Thanks, Neil!) More examples available, if interested…

1. Quote: “My goal, I always made clear, was not to preach against Catholic beliefs or to proselytize people who were already committed to Christ within the Catholic Church. Rather, it was to proclaim the Gospel to all those who had never truly committed their lives to Christ.”

From: “Just As I Am”, Graham’s autobiography, p. 357.

1. Quote: “When she (Mother Teresa) walked into the room to greet me, I felt that I was, indeed, meeting a saint.”

The full quote, which follows, appeared in an AP article ("‘World’s saint’ transcended religions, politics" - David Briggs, Associated Press) cataloguing responses by various world leaders and public figures to Mother Theresa’s repose:

“It was my privilege to be with her on several occasions. The first time was at the Home of Dying Destitutes in Calcutta. I had a wonderful hour of fellowship in the Lord with her just at sunset, and I will never forget the sounds, the smells and the strange beauty of that place. When she walked into the room to greet me, I felt that I was, indeed, meeting a saint.”

s-t.com/daily/09-97/09-07-97/a03wn015.htm

1. Quote: “Mother Teresa is a heroic individual on whom the youth of America and the world could well model.”

I can’t locate the exact source for the quote but one on-line site says that in May 1984, Graham pointed to Mother Teresa as a hero model for American youth (reported in Calvary Contender, Nov. 15, 1985); I suspect I had a fuller version from somewhere.
See:

summit1.edu/gun11/gun01.htm

1. Quote: “Pope John Paul II has emerged as the greatest religious leader of the modern world, and one of the greatest moral and spiritual leaders of this century.”

Quoted in Saturday Evening Post, Jan.-Feb. 1980.

Also cited at an anti-Graham website:

hissheep.org/catholic/billy_graham_politician_preacher_prophet_heretic.html

1. Quote: “No other man in the world today could attract as much attention on moral and spiritual subjects as John Paul. He is articulating what Catholic and Protestant churches have traditionally held, the moral values from the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount. The country is responding in a magnificent way. It shows there’s a great spiritual hunger. The Pope has reached millions of Protestants. The organized ecumenical movement seems to be on the back burner and ecumenicity is now taking place where Roman Catholics and Protestants share beliefs in matters like the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection of Christ.”

Quoted by Pastor D.W. Cloud in “Some Frightening Facts About Billy Graham”, 1984, ‘Oh Timothy’, Vol. 1, Issue 4. Also quoted by Dr. Cathy Burns in “Billy Graham and His Friends: A Hidden Agenda”, on p. 408.

Cited at the website of Cutting Edge Ministries:

cuttingedge.org/news/n1606.cfm

 

[jimmy]

thomann2:

PURGATORY - MAYBE…MAYBE NOT…

Catholics are taught that the cleansing fires of purgatory exist for the punishment of their sins “so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.” 3 Again, this is a teaching which every Catholic must believe (even though it rejects Christ’s sacrifice in full payment for sin): “If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.” 4
There are two dogmas that all Catholics must believe about Purgatory. The first is that it exists. The second is that prayers for those in purgatory are efficacious.

That said, there is nothing else that you must believe as a Catholic about Purgatory. The easiest way to think of Purgatory is a place or state of cleansing. The bible teaches that nothing unpure can enter Heaven. This can be illustrated by the parable about the wedding reception in my above post. It is also stated in Revelation that nothing unpure shall enter Heaven. There are no people that are pure when they die, so that necesitates some kind of middle state or place where we are made pure and released of all attachment to sin.

thomann2:

NO PICKING & CHOOSING

The Catholic Church imposes damnations (more than 100 specific anathemas are listed) upon Catholics who decide not to accept some of its teachings and practices. While liberal, lax, and even biblically leaning Catholics attempt to justify their contrary-to-official-belief views, they are mutinying against their Church which (according to Roman Catholic dogma) is their only means to heaven. The laws of the Roman Catholic Church, however, explicitly condemn those who hold “mutinous” beliefs. In other words, if a Catholic hopes to gain eternal life as a Catholic, he must abide strictly by his Church’s proclaimed infallible rules. This manmade religious system does not tolerate a pick-and-choose approach to its faith.

First of all no biblically leaning Catholic would reject any of the teachings of the Catholic church because it is all very biblical.

God is not pick and choose. If you can show anywhere in the bible with your sola scriptura view that the believers should choose whatever they want to believe then maybe I will concede the arguement. I am very confident that you will not. If you read the writings of Ignatius(100-110AD) you can see that he specifically talks about following the bishops and being submissive to there teachings. Ignatius was ordained a bishop by either Peter or Paul, I can’t recall which. I believe he says which in one of his letters.

What the Catholic Church says is Dogma is found to be the truth. What you are saying when you reject the dogmas of the church for your own views is that you would rather believe what you want to believe and that you reject the authority of the church that Christ set up for all of us to belong to.

The truth about Christ is very objective. Meaning that the truth of God for me is the same as the truth of God for you. But you reject certain truths that have been revealed to us by God. When you reject part of God you reject the entirity of God.

 

[Gail]

Thomann2,

Get a copy of Karl Keating’s book at Catholic Answers “Catholicism and Fundamentalism.” Give it to her as a gift and ask her to read it and you can share ideas with her on the book. It has made many people think and won many converts.

Gail

 

[MariaG]

Others have started to answer specifically to the points raised in the letter. But I just want to encourage you to continue in a dialogue with this person. God’s word will never come back void. Sometimes all a person’s role is, is to plant a seed that someone else will water will God’s truth at a later time. It is never a waste of time to be in a dialogue with someone who is willing even if that person doesn’t believe Catholics are Christians. When I do talk with people like that, I also pray to God that one day, if it is within His will, He allow me to see the what the Holy Spirit has done through me. Allow me some small encouragement that what I am doing is truly God’s work. And so far, every single time I start to wonder if I should even try to do apologetics, I get some encouragement and affirmation that I am on the right path.

God can take my good intentions and poor words and turn them into wonderous things. Always keep in mind that you can’t change anyone’s mind, but the Holy Spirit can.

God’s word will never come back void. Keep talking if she is willing to listen. Be a seed planter.

God Bless,
Maria

p.s.

You know, I wish I could find every person that choose to talk to me and plant seeds even though I was not always receptive to what they were saying. I Thank God that they choose to keep talking to me even though they never saw the fruit of the discussions. Speaking God’s Truth is never wrong no matter if you think they are listening to you or not.