Response to a Muslim Apologist

[nsper7]

During a conversation with a Muslim on another website, they posted this defense of Islam and critique of Catholicism. Could someone give a good critique of this?

My dear brother, It is a great thing you are being all very intellectual about it for it is said in Islam [and this is obvious to the common sense too] that intellect and truth goes together, for the former is indeed needed to discern the latter; so lets anylise what is likely to be Gods guidance from this intellectual point of view:

God, i’m sure we can agree is the Most Mercifull and loving, thus His religion will be clear and outstanding from the rest in such a way that when a person starts seeking for it and uses his intellect to discern from the different religions, truth will indeed stand out from error; i.e, the former will be in accordance with logic and the latter wont

The first intellectual problem of christianity my dear brother i’ll present to you is the concept of trinity; does it not seem contradictory that when foundation of Gods religion is that God is One, and then this Oneness of God will be confused by a doctrine of three trying to be explained as one?

And i’m sure you may have heard other ‘logical’ problems with Christianity, but what i’d like to point out at this stage is that, with God being most Mercifull and with truth and falsehood being two distinct paths leading to the ultimate dichotomous destinations, then as long as a person is sincere is his investigation then the truth will indeed stand out as far different rather than the person being left with a choice analogous to ‘cutting a wire to defuse a bomb’

Now my dear friend inshALlah i will lay out the very clear signs to look out for when investigating between the three Abrahimic religions or just the latter two; the Quran you will see is totally uncontradictory and it is everything like what God is likey to reveal; i.e, it enjoins all things good and forbids all things bad and enjoins the best of humanity in people; it warns of satan and hell and gives glad tidings of the garden of heaven awaiting the obedient worshippers of Allah; and the Quran being the truthfull Book from God that it is claimed, should be and indeed is in conformity with modern science too, i.e, none of the scientific facts discovered in recent decades contradicts the truth God has revealed in the Quran; for an analysis of this my dear brother see links:

witness-pioneer.org/vil/B…QS/default.htm [this link compares the three Books, Bible, Torah and Quran in the light of modern science]

miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_index.html

youtube.com/watch?v=FUUPYs0gElU

islamicmedicine.org/amazing.htm

And here is a post from my archives on this issue:

Q. Can you show me the thing you have that gives you the truth that your religion is the only valid one and how it can be shown, to these other traditions, that you are with out a doubt, correct?
This is what I wonder about.

A. wow, what a question!; this question is really the crux of the matter isn’t it? , for if this one can be answered and verified, then voila!, we have the truth

Well my friend I’ll try and answer the islamic response best as possible

Allah has given all mankind an intellect; the power to discern with the qualities of common sense, logic, and also our innate nature and intuition, for all mankind has been created with an innate nature inclined towards recognising the truth

Hence my dear friend, we have to investigate these religions and compare the evidences and be sincere and objective about what conclusions we reach; at the same time we should ask God for guidance which will illuminate our understanding inshAllah

Lets just focus for now on the three Abrahimic faith, for the others are a lot more obviously [with all due respect] fantasies and myths

Well first i’ll point out the contradictions in the old and new testaments; these contradictions are even attested to by Bible Scholars:

Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

"…Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men…It is Human

this establishes that the bible is not the book revealed to Jesus [pbuh] by God, for it is human thoughts on what God is believed to have revealed to Jesus [pbuh]…

Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

“…Not so the New Testament…There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history…”
[2]

“It is well known that the primitive Christian Gospel was initially transmitted by word of mouth and that this oral tradition resulted in variant reporting of word and deed. It is equally true that when the Christian record was committed to writing it continued to be the subject of verbal variation. Involuntary and intentional, at the hands of scribes and editors.”[3]

“Yet, as a matter of fact, every book of the New Testament with the exception of the four great Epistles of St. Paul is at present more or less the subject of controversy, and interpolations are asserted even in these.”[4]

Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin Von Tischendorf, one of the most adamant conservative Christian defenders of the Trinity was himself driven to admit that:

“[the New Testament had] in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually written”[5] ((cont’d))

 

[nsper7]

After listing many examples of contradictory statements in the Bible, Dr. Frederic Kenyon says:

“Besides the larger discrepancies, such as these, there is scarcely a verse in which there is not some variation of phrase in some copies [of the ancient manuscripts from which the Bible has been collected]. No one can say that these additions or omissions or alterations are matters of mere indifference”[6]

Let us see what these thirty two Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by fifty cooperating Christian denominations have to say about the Authorized Version (AV), or as it is better known, the King James Version (KJV). In the preface of the RSV 1971 we find the following:

“…Yet the King James Version has GRAVE DEFECTS…”

They go on to caution us that:

“…That these defects are SO MANY AND SO SERIOUS as to call for revision”

The Jehovah’s Witnesses in their “AWAKE” Magazine dated 8th September 1957 published the following headline: “50,000 Errors in the Bible” wherein they say “…there are probably 50,000 errors in the Bible…errors which have crept into the Bible text…50,000 such serious errors…”

www.islamreligion.com/articles/584/

more in link:

scribd.com/doc/7533044/10…-Old-Testament

so now, given that the two testaments are so obviously distorted and full of contradictions; man-made interpolations, we really cannot be sure of whether it’s teachings that go against the final revelation, Al-Quran, is true or not, for whats to say they are not the fake man-made stuff?

Also my friend I’ll bring your attention to the fact that the concept of monothiesm in Christianity is so obviously severely distorted to the point where to our common sense, it is more in accordance with polythiesm, and also in the Jewish scriptures there is a lot of anthroporphormism there, allthough technically the jews say that God is one; see shaykh hamza mention this in the following vid [from 0:16]:

youtube.com/watch?v=mKW3LCMsP0E

thus this concept too is contradictory is it not?, for if God is One in the sense that nothing at all is associated in His divinity, and then if we say that He is like man, then in this idea do we not bring God down to the level of man [in certain aspects, thus contradicting His infinite transcendence] and likening man to God too, in other words, associating manly attributes [which are part of the creation] to God?

Now lets discuss of what evidence there is in the Bible or Torah that God will not send another Messenger, or that a Messenger will not be sent for all-mankind, abrogating all other religions; there simple isn’t any, and a few verses which the christians refer to, can easliy be interpreted a different way for they do not clearly or decicively mean that Jesus [pbuh] is the last Messenger by a far stretch; also lets bear in mind the fact that whatever these books may say…, they cannot be trusted to be correct due to the proof of them being distorted, hence we really need to look at what type of evidences there are that the prophet Muhammad [saw] is indeed a true messenger of God and for the Quran being a true revelation of God

Basically, there is nothing at all from the former two religions, or from a scientific, logical, intellecutal point of view that can refute or even cast a reasonable doubt that they are indeed what they claim to be, but rather there is lots of evidence that indicates their veracity

Here are some of them, encapsulated in a post from my archives that explains why the Prophet muhammad [saw] couldn’t have been suffering from a psycological condition [mental ilness] called TLE, that is said to induces hyper religiousity and spontaneous outbursts of ‘spiritual’ poetry:

The Quran is consistent from start to finish; it has no contradiction in it, it is every bit like what God would reveal; it’s message is consistent to the extent where it even points out the errors of the past heavenly revealed religions [and not just agrees with them] and corrects the doctrine of the Prophet Jesus [pbuh]. It has many scientific miracles in it, It has a complete code of a way of life that cannot be refuted and which is in total accordance with justice and all the attribute of God mentioned in the Quran and Sunnah. The Prophecie/s of the Quran have come true and some may be pending.

The above are just some signs indicating that the Quran cannot be the halucinations or the ‘inspirations’ of person suffering from mental illnesses.

There is further proof indicating the objective truth of Islam in the Sunnah; all the Prophecies of the Prophet Muhammad [saw] have come true so far; the interpretation of the Quran, that is the Sunnah, fits the verses of the Quran without any contradiction whatsoever and it harmonises intellecutally any seemingly contradcitions in the Quran. Basically, the Quran and the Sunnah is a hundred percent according to logic; the ‘supernatural’ stuff in the Quran and Sunnah is in accordance with Gods powers and attributes. The Sunnah contains some ‘medical miracles’ too.

All of the above is, in my opinion, enough to know that the Quran [or the Sunnah] cannot be the result of TLE; surely TLE dont inspire people to automatically come out with scienctific facts that havn’t been ‘discovered’ yet?, and surely it cannot inspire or instinctively induce such a perfect, comprehensive, vollumous, miraculous, and an ocean of knowledge that the Quran is? ((cont’d))

 

[nsper7]

As well as all the miraculous aspects of the Quran mentioned above [see link for confirmation of scientists themselves of the sceintific miralces of the Quran: YouTube - * [Holy] Quran : Top Scientists Comments on Scientific Miracles in the Quran * # Faith and Science # ], the Prophet muhammed [saw] performed other miracles too, which have all been verified; here are some of them…:

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 388:

Narrated Abdullah:

The moon was cleft asunder while we were in the company of the Prophet, and it became two parts. The Prophet said, Witness, witness (this miracle)."

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 780:

Narrated Jabir:

My father had died in debt. So I came to the Prophet and said, “My father (died) leaving unpaid debts, and I have nothing except the yield of his date palms; and their yield for many years will not cover his debts. So please come with me, so that the creditors may not misbehave with me.” The Prophet went round one of the heaps of dates and invoked (Allah), and then did the same with another heap and sat on it and said, “Measure (for them).” He paid them their rights and what remained was as much as had been paid to them.

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 779:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

We used to consider miracles as Allah’s Blessings, but you people consider them to be a warning. Once we were with Allah’s Apostle on a journey, and we ran short of water. He said, “Bring the water remaining with you.” The people brought a utensil containing a little water. He placed his hand in it and said, “Come to the blessed water, and the Blessing is from Allah.” I saw the water flowing from among the fingers of Allah’s Apostle , and no doubt, we heard the meal glorifying Allah, when it was being eaten (by him).

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 777:

Narrated Al-Bara:

We were one-thousand-and-four-hundred persons on the day of Al-Hudaibiya (Treaty), and (at) Al-Hudaibiya (there) was a well. We drew out its water not leaving even a single drop. The Prophet sat at the edge of the well and asked for some water with which he rinsed his mouth and then he threw it out into the well. We stayed for a short while and then drew water from the well and quenched our thirst, and even our riding animals drank water to their satisfaction.

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 115:

Narrated Anas:

A man came to the Prophet on a Friday while he (the Prophet) was delivering a sermon at Medina, and said, “There is lack of rain, so please invoke your Lord to bless us with the rain.” The Prophet looked at the sky when no cloud could be detected. Then he invoked Allah for rain. Clouds started gathering together and it rained till the Medina valleys started flowing with water. It continued raining till the next Friday. Then that man (or some other man) stood up while the Prophet was delivering the Friday sermon, and said, “We are drowned; Please invoke your Lord to withhold it (rain) from us” The Prophet smiled and said twice or thrice, “O Allah! Please let it rain round about us and not upon us.” The clouds started dispersing over Medina to the right and to the left, and it rained round about Medina and not upon Medina. Allah showed them (the people) the miracle of His Prophet and His response to his invocation.

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 454:

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Two of the companions of the Prophet departed from him on a dark night and were led by two lights like lamps (going in front of them from Allah as a miracle) lighting the way in front of them, and when they parted, each of them was accompanied by one of these lights till he reached their (respective) houses.

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 783:

Narrated Ibn Umar:

The Prophet used to deliver his sermons while standing beside a trunk of a datepalm. When he had the pulpit made, he used it instead. The trunk started crying and the Prophet went to it, rubbing his hand over it (to stop its crying).

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 779:

Narrated 'Abdullah:

We used to consider miracles as Allah’s Blessings, but you people consider them to be a warning. Once we were with Allah’s Apostle on a journey, and we ran short of water. He said, “Bring the water remaining with you.” The people brought a utensil containing a little water. He placed his hand in it and said, “Come to the blessed water, and the Blessing is from Allah.” I saw the water flowing from among the fingers of Allah’s Apostle, and no doubt, we heard the meal glorifying Allah, when it was being eaten (by him).

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 814:

Narrated Anas:

There was a Christian who embraced Islam and read Surat-al-Baqara and Al-Imran, and he used to write (the revelations) for the Prophet. Later on he returned to Christianity again and he used to say: “Muhammad knows nothing but what I have written for him.” Then Allah caused him to die, and the people buried him, but in the morning they saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, “This is the act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and took his body out of it because he had run away from them.” They again dug the grave deeply for him, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. They said, “This is an act of Muhammad and his companions. They dug the grave of our companion and threw his body outside it, for he had run away from them.” They dug the grave for him as deep as they could, but in the morning they again saw that the earth had thrown his body out. So they believed that what had befallen him was not done by human beings and had to leave him thrown (on the ground). ((cont’d))

 

[nsper7]

Volume 3, Book 39, Number 517:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet said, “While a man was riding a cow, it turned towards him and said, 'I have not been created for this purpose (i.e. carrying), I have been created for sloughing.l” The Prophet added, “I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar believe in the story.” The Prophet went on, "A wolf caught a sheep, and when the shepherd chased it, the wolf said, ‘Who will be its guard on the day of wild beasts, when there will be no shepherd for it except me?’ "After narrating it, the Prophet said, “I, Abu Bakr and 'Umar too believe it.” Abu Salama (a sub-narrator) said, “Abu Bakr and 'Umar were not present then.”

It has been written that a wolf also spoke to one of the companions of the Prophet near Medina as narrated in Fath-al-Bari:Narrated Unais bin 'Amr: Ahban bin Aus said, "I was amongst my sheep. Suddenly a wolf caught a sheep and I shouted at it. The wolf sat on its tail and addressed me, saying, ‘Who will look after it (i.e. the sheep) when you will be busy and not able to look after it? Do you forbid me the provision which Allah has provided me?’ " Ahban added, "I clapped my hands and said, ‘By Allah, I have never seen anything more curious and wonderful than this!’ On that the wolf said, ‘There is something (more curious) and wonderful than this; that is, Allah’s Apostle in those palm trees, inviting people to Allah (i.e. Islam).’ “Unais bin 'Amr further said, “Then Ahban went to Allah’s Apostle and informed him what happened and embraced Islam.)” palm trees or other trees and share the fruits with me.”

now the proof that all these miracles did happen is that, they are all Sahih [rigorously authenticated] Bukhari hadiths which is the most authentic and reliable hadith compilation

But my dear friend, allthough there is tons of intellectual evidence for the veracity of the Quran being divine, yet ultimately, faith comes from Allah alone in the form of a light that He puts in the hearts of those who do not reject the signs of ALlah; here is yet another post from my archives [yes I know, i’m absolutely full of em ] that sheds light on what i mean; it was originally meant for a sister having ‘doubts’:

Islam is not all about the intellect sis, and there has to be a point where one has to try and see/hear from the eyes/ears of the heart [the spiritual heart] and if a person dont reject or dont deny what his heart and soul tells him to be true, then that is when Allah instills faith in his heart…; Shaykh Hamza Yusuf said that the arabic/Islamic word ‘aql’ [intellect] differs in it’s definition from the western definition; the word ‘aql’ is litterally a light that Allah puts in the heart, via which a person can see the true nature of things; that is why for those who are firm in their belief of Islam, it is not just a matter of intellect and they can see the truth from the eyes of their heart; try to let all the Islamic logic, and signs of Allah seep in your heart and see if you can look at the Quran and Sunnah via the same light; beg Allah for guidance at the same time.

The most ‘lenient’ interpretation of kufr [desbelief] that I have heard, was from Shaykh Hamza too, and he said that there will allways be critical voices regarding Islam, and when a person chooses the critical voices over the overwhelming evidence, that is kufr; now dont get alarmed sis, I’m not making takfir [anthemetising] here, but am just saying that what this definition of kufr indicates is that, once a person is faced with overwhelming evidence, then that is enough for his soul to consciously or subconciously know that that is true, but yet, although the persons common sense [and fitrah] will tell him that the overwhelming evidence is true, if he wants to be too ‘intellectual’ about it at this stage and dont let go of the idea of the ‘1 in a million chance’ of the ‘critical voices’ being true, then ‘aql’ wont enter his heart.

So my two cents to you sis will be, dont work your intellect too hard, and just give in to the eyes and ears of your heart when it is appropriate, rather than stick to the critical voices. and above all. beg and cry to Allah for guidance, for if He dont save you, nothing can or will.

This is a statement from Abu Hamid Al-Ghazali:

Whoever assumes that faith is realised through speculative theology, abstract proofs or academic divisions is an innovator. To the contrary, faith is a light that Allah [swt] casts in the hearts of his servants with bounty and grace from His presence. Sometimes faith is evidenced internally and it is impossible to express; sometimes, through a vision while asleep, other times, by witnessing the state of a pious man and recieving the emanation of his light as a result of his companionship and presence; and there are times when faith comes by the concurrence of circumstances. Indeed a beduin came to the Prophet [saw] denying and rejecting him, But when his eyes fell upon his radiant aspect - May Allah increase it’s dignity and nobility - he saw in it the light of Prophethood and exclaimed, “By Allah!, This is not the face of a lier!” He then beseeched the Prophet [saw] to tell him about Islam and immediately embraced it.

[ref: The Creed of Imam Tahawi, translated by Hamza Yusuf]

Thus the way we know that it is the absolute truth, is due to this light of faith in the heart, but as shown, the intellectual evidence backs it up overwhelmingly ((cont’d))

 

[nsper7]

…

Sorry to inundate you with so much to read my dear brother, but since your an intellectual person into studying, I thought you wouldn’t mind; take your time to read it if neccessary but hopefully all this info. will contain some good evidence of why Islam is indeed the Truth from God

There is also proof of the prophethood of the prophet muhammad [saw] from his prophecies, i.e when his prophecies come true, this is indeed a sign that he was Gods messenger; here is a link that gives some fascinating examples of prophecies of the prophet muhammad [saw] that have come true; it includes even a talking shoe! :

youtube.com/watch?v=UjpHz8LAneY

my dear brother, also Gods revelations strikes our innate nature/intuition as being Divine, so take your time to read some of the translation of the Quranic verses; here is a link of it:

usc.edu/schools/college/c…/muslim/quran/

And last but not least my dear brother, the Quran in it’s orginal Arabic sounds truly divine too; it is composed in such a way and with such a soothing and harmonic tone that it just oozes signs of divinty throughout; here are a couple of chapters of the Quran in it’s orginal Arabic; listen to the ‘Creator talking’:

youtube.com/watch?v=FPdlV…eature=related

youtube.com/watch?v=lrR1qBYbqvU

And here is a video that shows the reaction it has with some non-Muslims; a pseudo german gangsta just burst into tears when he heard the Arabic recitation of the Quran, allthough he did not understand it it just struck his heart as being the truth:

youtube.com/watch?v=2X-nOIAzEW4

this is How God manifests the truth to those who sincerely seek Him my dear freind so my advice to you like others have suggested is that seek God sincerely and investigate objectively and beg God to be guided to the truth and the truth shall be manifested to you beyond all doubt and you dont have to worry about having to “pick a wire to defuse a bomb” anymore

hope this helps

ps: there are basically two strong views as to what will happen to ‘trinitarians’; both these views are based on the Quran but only one of these views will come true on the Day of judgement; one is that if a person just adheres to it out of a passive ignorance, then he will be excused on the Day of Judgement or put to a further test, of which the outcome of it will decide his fate, and if his being a trinitarian is out of an active denial, then he will face the consequences of hell , and the other is that as true monothiesm is ingrained in our very souls and as there is overwhelming signs in the universe of Gods Oneness, then wether or not such a person comes across the message of Islam, yet he is responsible for working out monothiesm and anything less than that will not be excused ; alltogether, i’d say, given the difference of opinion on it, it is incredibly risky for a person to remain a non-Muslim once he has received a Message of Islam or in the case where he has not, then to be anything but a true monothiest

And one word of sincere advice my dear friend, whatever you do, please do not hate God even a bit and especially with an extreme passion, for God has indeed been Most mercifull to us wether we are believers in His true religion or not [for every bounty/blessing we have is from Him], and to hate him could make God decide to put a barrier before our eyes from discovering His truth:

Translations of the Qur’an, Surah 2:

6 -7: As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

 

[jakasaki]

@ OP - I know you are asking the Catholic Apologetics but let me tell you where your muslim friend got all of this - Ahmed Deedat - although he is dead now, he was one of the biggest hater of Christianity and preached to his many followers this sort of stuff…

I stopped reading your thread when I got to this portion from your muslim friend…

**Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

"…Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men…It is Human**

I noticed your muslim friend stopped at the … It is Human…

Too bad he didn’t finish because he is trying to throw you off… he left out the word DEVINE…

The name of the book Dr Scroggie wrote is called… **It is Human, Yet Devine **

**Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

“…Not so the New Testament…There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history…”**

Kenneth Cragg,
Book: The Call of the Minaret,
Read it to understand what Mr Cragg was writting about…

And one last note from me - They will quote you things from the JW’s & Mormons books, again to throw you off…

**If you are going to engage in a conversation/forum with muslims/islam, know more about them, but more important, know more about your faith as a Catholic. **

 

[SonCatcher]

It doesn’t appear this “apologist” wants to engage in honest dialog. He’s trying to filibuster the “conversation” with large blocks of text he doubtlessly copy-pasted from a script.

It took 5 posts for you to get his text into here and how many questions did he ask? I have not counted any that he did not (falsely) answer himself.

It’s not worth the time.

 

[jakasaki]

It doesn’t appear this “apologist” wants to engage in honest dialog. He’s trying to filibuster the “conversation” with large blocks of text he doubtlessly copy-pasted from a script.

It took 5 posts for you to get his text into here and how many questions did he ask? I have not counted any that he did not (falsely) answer himself.

It’s not worth the time.

They like to do that and throw you all over the place with confussion…

I just noticed his closing statement:

**

Translations of the Qur’an, Surah 2:

6 -7: As for the Disbelievers, Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering. Theirs will be an awful doom.

**

You do know he wrote this for you - (OP) - since you are not a believer in allah & mohamad & the koran, therefore you are in this “awful doom” he is writting about.

We have heard these arguments & have read these postings before on islamic forums and also right here on CAF in the Non-Catholic section.

 

[nsper7]

Well, I was a Sunni Muslim site asking about Islam and talking about my experiences as a Christian (which have been largely and horrendously negative–Scrupulosity/OCD, fear of Hell, feelings of despair leading to anger and hatred, etc.) and so I was asking about Islam. Obviously, even though my Catholic faith torments me, I don’t want to abandon the Truth.

 

[nsper7]

Well, I was a Sunni Muslim site asking about Islam and talking about my experiences as a Christian (which have been largely and horrendously negative–Scrupulosity/OCD, fear of Hell, feelings of despair leading to anger and hatred, etc.) and so I was asking about Islam. Obviously, even though my Catholic faith torments me, I don’t want to abandon the Truth.

I meant to say “I was on a Sunni Muslim site…”

 

[Sam_777]

I noticed your muslim friend stopped at the … It is Human…

Too bad he didn’t finish because he is trying to throw you off… he left out the word DEVINE…

The name of the book Dr Scroggie wrote is called… **It is Human, Yet Devine **

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon14.gif jakasaki, as usual, you are right on target…

nsper7, you better post your questions one by one in the “Non-Catholic Religions” section so that you would get precise answers.

 

[utunumsint]

Is there anything you find convincing in these posts?

He keeps on talking about how full of contradictions is the Bible. He criticises the fact that the Bible was not revealed directly by Jesus as supposedly it was for Mohammed. He accuses the Bible of being full of man made stuff, quotes scripture scholars out of context.

Then he makes a really weak argument that the Koran is exactly the kind of thing God would write. He seems to know a lot about God’s likes and dislikes!

Honestly, is there anything in these posts that gives you doubt, except for the Bible bashing and Trinity bashing?

God bless,
Ut

 

[jakasaki]

Oh yes, the moon split into 2 pieces - strange that this happen and no one on the globe documented this “miracle” - not one person, not one nation - and gee, when did the moon become one again… ???

**

Narrated Abdullah:

The moon was cleft asunder while we were in the company of the Prophet, and it became two parts. The Prophet said, Witness, witness (this miracle)."

**

 

[nsper7]

sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?58897-Scared-Angry-Scrupulous-Catholic-Wondering-About-Islam/page5

That is the original thread I was on on that forum. So none of this causes anyone to doubt their faith? I worry because I do want to make sure I follow the Truth, but I also find my Catholic faith sometimes quite tormenting (I explain this in other threads here on CAF and on that thread on the Muslim site).

 

[SonCatcher]

nsper7:

Well, I was on a Sunni Muslim site asking about Islam and talking about my experiences as a Christian (which have been largely and horrendously negative–Scrupulosity/OCD, fear of Hell, feelings of despair leading to anger and hatred, etc.) and so I was asking about Islam. Obviously, even though my Catholic faith torments me, I don’t want to abandon the Truth.

nsper7:

I worry because I do want to make sure I follow the Truth, but I also find my Catholic faith sometimes quite tormenting (I explain this in other threads here on CAF and on that thread on the Muslim site).

Nsper7, I understand the Catholic faith can be difficult. The issues you cite won’t go away by exploring other religions and likely would be compounded if you apostatized.

[BIBLEDRB]Philippians 2:12-13[/BIBLEDRB]

St. Paul doesn’t describe an easy faith at all, but hang in there.

[BIBLEDRB]Matt 24:13[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[anns82]

sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?58897-Scared-Angry-Scrupulous-Catholic-Wondering-About-Islam/page5

That is the original thread I was on on that forum. So none of this causes anyone to doubt their faith? I worry because I do want to make sure I follow the Truth, but I also find my Catholic faith sometimes quite tormenting (I explain this in other threads here on CAF and on that thread on the Muslim site).

Notice that the poster presented the false notions of various protestant churches as evidence against the Catholic church. Gospels were not written by the hands of the Apostles? Yes, we know that, the apostles were busy teaching, it were their followers who wrote. Muhammad was illiterate, so he did not write the Koran with his own hands either. God is inconsistent between the old and new testament? Not really, the Jewish books reveal an understanding of God through laws, it is where God establishes his covenant with the people as their Lord. In the New Testament, God (Jesus) brings this covenant to a more full understanding of the relationship God wants to have with us - not as simply a ruler, but as a Father. The New Testament is a deeper understanding of the Jewish teaching.

I find it interesting that the Muslim apologist continually insists that the Koran is consistent, yet they teach that God changes His mind. If God changes, then how are we to be sure Muhammad is actually the last prophet? God might decide to send someone else. Also, within the Hadith, the story of Muhammad’s life which is supposed to show how we are to live, men find justification for polygamy and marrying a child 9 yrs old. I’m not sure if Muslims believe in Genesis (they should if they do in fact believe in the same Judeo/Christian God), but God mad one man and one woman in marriage - not Adam and Eve and Linda and Tammy. Traditional understanding of the story presents Adam and Eve being close in age (God did not wait until Adam was x years old to give him a young Eve. There are a lot of issues I could go on about which cause me to question the Muslim faith. (I am open to refutations on these topics too if anyone is wants to correct my understanding of the Muslim faith)

Essentially, the arguments the apologist presented are not against the Catholic understanding of Christianity, but rather are against Protestant understanding of Catholic teaching. If he would have went directly to church teaching and refuted Encyclicals or the Church Fathers, then that would be something worth addressing, but the person you sighted apparently does not know the difference between Protestants and Catholics.

 

[rtconstant]

Well, I was a Sunni Muslim site asking about Islam and talking about my experiences as a Christian (which have been largely and horrendously negative–Scrupulosity/OCD, fear of Hell, feelings of despair leading to anger and hatred, etc.) and so I was asking about Islam. Obviously, even though my Catholic faith torments me, I don’t want to abandon the Truth.

I wanted speak to this real quick. You mention that you suffer from Scupulosity, I also notice that you correctly put an /OCD afterwards. I too suffer from this condition. However, please keep in mind that Scrupulosity is not a spiritual problem but a psychological one. It actually has absolutely nothing to do with your religion. I would encourage you to seek treatment for the Scrupulosity before making any sort of decision regarding your faith.

It is actually telling that you have curiosity in a more rules intensive system like Islam, as that aspect of the religion would appeal to your OCD. Dietary rules, strong gender, and social rules. All of these things add a quantifiable quality to a religion which your Scrupulosity can really run with. Deal with your scrupulosity first, find peace between you and God. Because at this point I can tell you from experience that you are in no condition to be making serious spiritual decisions.

Honestly? You’re lucky in one respect. You are blessed to be in a religion that has (along with Judaism) recognized since the middle ages that Scrupulosity is a psychological instead of spiritual issue.

I’m sorry to distract from the original meaning of your post. You are getting good apologetic advice. But please don’t worry about which religion to be right now. Get help with the Scrupulosity. After you resolve that, then you’ll have clearer eyes by which to judge the Truth.

 

[Windfish]

sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?58897-Scared-Angry-Scrupulous-Catholic-Wondering-About-Islam/page5

That is the original thread I was on on that forum. So none of this causes anyone to doubt their faith? I worry because I do want to make sure I follow the Truth, but I also find my Catholic faith sometimes quite tormenting (I explain this in other threads here on CAF and on that thread on the Muslim site).

I am sorry that you have not been able to get a more thorough treatment of what you think is causing your doubt. It’s just a lot to peruse through, and I think it would be helpful if you choose specific points that we can respond to. These words may be empty to you now, but believe me, I’ve been there and back. I know exactly what you’re going through, especially with regards to Islam.

Before we can tackle that, we should start at a place that is nearer: the Catholic faith that you have now. What is troubling you about it? Once we address these issues and establish a firm foundation, then we can move on from there.

My advice for you right now: be patient and have confidence in God’s love for you.

 

[IHeartAquinas]

I stopped reading when he said the Koran is not self-contradictory.

The fundamental difference in how Muslims view the Koran and how Catholics (and most Christians in general) view the Bible is that Muslims view their book as the revealed word of God whilst Catholics view the Bible as the inspired word of God. The revealed word is sacred to an extreme that anyone not of a like tradition has trouble understanding. This is one of the reasons an American soldier desecrating a Koran makes media headlines whilst rebellious little teenagers in suburban America that have just discovered the Satanic Bible never even makes the local headlines for burning their family Bible in the driveway. To a Muslim, even a glaring contradiction or even something that is glaringly untrue will be glossed over. To accept any fragment of any sentence of any part of the Koran as untrue undermines the legitimacy of the entire book, whereas recognizing that human error allows real error to slip in has saved Catholics, Jews, Orthodox, and other Christians lots of headaches in explaining their own faiths. Imagine if we had to explain the historical inconsistencies. It would be a monumental nightmare. But we don’t have to because we recognize and understand that the Bible is not inerrant in science and history, it is only inerrant in morals and faith. For the Muslim, this is not true. To them, the Koran must be scientifically, historically, morally, and faithfully inerrant. And this is where a lot of the problems seep in.

An interesting point of fact is that the Koran (please somebody more well-versed in confronting Muslim apologetics help me in finding the citation for this) states the Christian trinity as God, Jesus, and Mary. The entire Christian world knows that this is not true. Refuting does not even require a Biblical quote. It is common knowledge (like defending Kevin Bacon’s role in Footloose–absolutely common knowledge). This alone proves that the Koran fails to be the revealed word of God, because an inerrant God could not reveal an errant scripture. He could inspire it, because God is not going to possess the writer and control the motion of the pen, but He could not possibly reveal it.

I agree with rtconstant. You absolutely must, must, MUST deal with your Scrupulosity before making any major spiritual decisions. This is of utmost importance for you right now. But once that is taken care of, please be aware that Islam is the LAST religion you should consider conversion to. I would, and I think the entire CAF community would as well, prefer that you not leave the Catholic faith at all. You have an enormous treasure trove of information on this forum. I find stuff all the time that I had no idea I didn’t know, and it doesn’t discourage me, nor does it make my cross any heavier to bear. It enriches my faith and makes my cross lighter to better understand and appreciate my faith. I have read Protestant apologetics, Mormon apologetics, and even strange New Age apologetics, and I have even read all of their attacks against Catholicism. You know what? So far, I haven’t found a single hole in Catholic dogma or doctrine that is not explainable by scripture and tradition. Anything I am confused about I find answers that cannot be refuted. And any refute that is present is far weaker than the way I like my tea.

Catholicism is the fullness of truth. If you must walk away from it, please do so fully armed with an understanding of what you are leaving behind. But do NOT allow Islam to cloud your judgments. The spread of Islam is a dangerous force that we have not even begun to properly address. Please do not allow it to confuse you further. Make peace with your scrupulosity before you readdress your confusion concerning your faith.

 

[gmcbroom]

I recommend the writings of gregory palamas, specifically his capture by Muslims and his exposition of the faith to them.