Response to clothing

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“A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.”

–The Cardinal Vicar of Pope Pius XI

So what should I say when someone asks me what I think of their attire in todays times? Does the above quote still apply?
 
That was written in the 20’s when that was the current way of dress. I really don’t think that is appropriate anymore. If it is, just about every woman is sinning every day in the hot summer sun just by wearing short sleeves or shorts.
 
That’s my worry. That we are sinning. I try to dress that way, though I have nothing against capris. Also, short sleeves halfway down the upper arm seems adequate to me. I have not worn a bathing suit without a cover in years.

Had I a daughter, I would insist on modesty. I can think of many clever ways to dress fashionably and attractively while staying modest. It just takes imagination.

I do admit when I’m at home, I will wear a tank and shorts, but, not in public. Not anymore. Of course I’ve gained 40 pounds in the last 10 years, so, eww, why would I?
 
With all due respect, I think you should be modest in church and be relaxed out of it. That comment by the cardinal, though noble, was written at a different time in a different world.

When I try to evangalize the good news of Chris to people, I usually wear a rock and roll t shirts (Kiss T-Shirts, Avenged Sevenfold), blue jeans, and my leather jacket. A female wearing an Amish like dress would sort of freak me out and look like she wondered off a Children of the Corn 32 movie set.
 
The Vatican’s website has proper dress attire for visiting the Vatican, it is not as strict as you listed.

Sorry I don’t have time to look it up tonight, although maybe tell them what the Vatican fees in appropriate attire to visit them in. 👍
 
With all due respect, I think you should be modest in church and be relaxed out of it. That comment by the cardinal, though noble, was written at a different time in a different world.

When I try to evangalize the good news of Chris to people, I usually wear a rock and roll t shirts (Kiss T-Shirts, Avenged Sevenfold), blue jeans, and my leather jacket. A female wearing an Amish like dress would sort of freak me out and look like she wondered off a Children of the Corn 32 movie set.
:rotfl:
 
Clothing in western (European) society changed very little for hundreds of years. The last century saw incredibly radical changes in ‘societal’ definitions of modesty. . .and the fruits of those changes. . .look at the objectification of women, the incredible proliferation of eating disorders, poor self esteem, the sexualization of children. Yes, these things ‘existed’ in the world before the mini skirt. . .but they have skyrocketed and are being seen by many now not even as problems. What we call ‘objectifying’ women they call “giving the woman power” or ‘recognizing woman’s sexuality.’ Every time we bring up anorexia and bulimia’s effects, we get told how ‘obese’ Americans are anyway. Poor self esteem isn’t blamed on women trying to look like airbrushed models but on the “puritan thinking” that supposedly represses these women and is the real reason they aren’t gracing the latest Cosmo cover. And the people who scream at the ‘pedophile priests’ don’t even blink when their 4 year olds sashay in wearing midriff shirts proudly proclaiming, “Hottie”.

For all the supposed freedom we women are supposed to get from wearing pants to wearing the latest hooker duds, what did we get? My generation (now 50) were told we could 'bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and do it all". What did we wind up with? Most of us wound up with much more difficult marriages than our parents had. . . and those are the ones who managed to keep the family together. A lot of us wound up divorced single parents, scorned and sneered at, castigated by men and women alike, finding men being ‘conditioned’ to be selfish because, “hey, the woman wants to be in charge, let her --I’m off to greener pastures” and the women to be inimical “we don’t want you competing, so we’ll try to keep you feeling down because we want to be on top and have it all even though we see it doesn’t work for most. . .but we’d rather blame you than acknowledge society was wrong and this ‘have it all’ is wrong for both men AND women.”

And as we age we find that unless we’ve got the body of Cher that a simple and modest dress is actually more comfortable and flattering than those jeans we ‘lived in’ for decades. But boy, those modest dresses are hard to find. So many of us are relearning, or indeed learning, as a lot of us never bothered with the ‘domestic arts’ that were frowned on by the more vocal feminists most of us heard. . .to sew. We’re reclaiming our heritage as women. . .as CREATORS, as home-makers, without apologizing or feeling that ‘woman’s work’ was somehow LESSER than manly work.

Careers? Oh please. The average woman who works outside the home (and has children under 18 at home) works part-time, and doesn’t really get anywhere near a living wage. Plus, she has to make arrangements to have her OWN children cared for in order to do this glorious ‘paid’ work.

Now, for those woman who have satisfying careers, earn a decent wage, have excellent child care available, supportive spouses, etc. . . more power to them. I’m not going to tell them to quit. Society has always had women in this position–they used to be royalty, then nobility, etc. But there are a lot more women who are doing jobs they don’t particularly enjoy, and getting little satisfaction. . .while furthermore losing out in their own family lives. . .and there are a lot of men who have been made to feel miserable whether they ‘support’ their wife working outside the home or not. Just because they aren’t out there ‘pledging their faith’ to the Lord of the manor doesn’t mean they’re any more ‘free’; they have as much ‘tie’ to their employer as many villians did to their lord! Men who feel that no matter what they do, they aren’t really ‘important’ to their families and who are therefore much more inclined to walk away because, “She’s working, she can take care of them.”

Well, this didn’t all come about because of clothing changes. . .but clothing changes are a reflection of a society attitude that is I truly feel much less healthy than in the so-called ‘olden days’, especially when it comes to the area of modesty. . .and so the huge proliferation of immodest behavior, including immodest dress, is a symptom of society’s great illness that we should not be ignoring.

Remember, guys, dresses just below the knee, with elbow length sleeves, and high necklines, do NOT mean “Amish style.” Turn on TCM and look for a 1940s or 1950s movie. . .those women are NOT “AMISH style”. Far from it! A woman could be decently dressed and look downright alluring (yet modest). Doris Day, for example, Jackie Kennedy in her pillbox hat and suit. . .were wearing modest clothing that was current, stylish, and fashionable. So please, please, stop trotting out the old “do you want women dressing like Amish women?”. . the answer is NO. . .women can look modest and FASHIONABLE (even 2009 fashionable) and still confirm to the standards of the writing in the OP.
 
“A dress cannot be called decent which is cut deeper than two fingers breadth under the pit of the throat; which does not cover the arms at least to the elbows; and scarcely reaches a bit beyond the knees. Furthermore, dresses of transparent materials are improper.”

–The Cardinal Vicar of Pope Pius XI
This particular set of guidelines, and indeed the topic of modesty in general, has been done to death on these forums. A search should reveal all the discussion your heart desires and more.
Does the above quote still apply?
No. And even at the time, the above guidelines, were in fact, guidelines only.

Briefly, since no one has done it yet:

Modesty is not a set of rules for dressing. Modesty is a virtue, “an habitual and firm disposition to do good.” (CCC 1803)

Modesty in clothing indeed “refuses to unveil what should remain hidden” (CCC 2521) but modesty in clothing “varies from one culture to another” (CCC 2524.) See CCC 2521-2524

Briefly, anything that according to the wearer’s intention and within the context of the culture does not show off areas of the body that are sexualized is not immodest.

The context of the culture has changed since the 1920’s. Indeed, if the Vicar of Pius XI’s guidelines were universally applicable then various of the female Roman saints (St. Blandina, St. Agnes) (Roman garments for women were often sleeveless) and more notably St. Joan of Arc (wearing men’s attire— Pius XI’s Vicar doesn’t like this either) were “walking around sinning” (as another poster has said.)
So what should I say when someone asks me what I think of their attire in todays times?
Someone on your previous thread addressing this question had the perfect answer, I think. Something to the effect of inappropriate dress not enhancing a person’s beauty.

All of which said, I think dresses of transparent material (if they reveal “your goods”) are improper, too.
 
Clothing in western (European) society changed very little for hundreds of years.
This is not entirely accurate. Fashion has not always changed as rapidly as it does today, but still, even within the confines of a single (civilized) country, the clothing of 1700’s is markedly different from the clothing worn in the mid-late 1800’s. And the same is true for earlier centuries.
For all the supposed freedom we women are supposed to get from wearing pants to wearing the latest hooker duds, what did we get? SNIPAnd as we age we find that unless we’ve got the body of Cher that a simple and modest dress is actually more comfortable and flattering than those jeans we ‘lived in’ for decades.
I would like to say that, I for one, am profoundly grateful for “modern” clothing, including pants. I am very aware that I would not be able to complete a number of weekly tasks and activities wearing the clothes customary for women even 60 years ago-- no way could I:

ride my bike to the store (in comfort and without revealing things that shouldn’t be revealed or destroying garments by catching them in the chain), weedwhack the yard, go running, or walk the mugger-ridden streets in the bad part of DC, confident that I could at least run or put up a bit of a fight if accosted.

The fact that I can choose affordable clothing that does not inhibit these activities means as an unmarried woman I am not forced to be a burden on my parents, that I am free to work for Catholic organizations (that don’t pay much) and to live a more simple lifestyle, trying to avoid the materialism that erodes our culture daily.
 
Not to be impertinent, but because the ‘context of the culture has changed’. . .does that necessarily mean that the change is correct?

We agree that the standards of modesty have changed only in that certain groups–fashion designers, consumers, etc.–have tacitly ‘accepted’, or promoted, clothing that has become steadily more immodest. . .and while we know that say on Tahiti in the 18th century a bare-breasted woman was not seen as immodest, if you were on the street in Papeete TODAY and a woman was walking on that street topless, she would be arrested.

That in different times and cultures some groups saw the human body differently doesn’t make Christian modesty ‘wrong’. . .or just ‘one’ of ‘several legitimate options’. Unfortunately a lot of people have a ‘relative’ idea of modesty–that if it’s 'modest for ME" or in MY eyes, then it’s all right even if it isn’t in somebody else’s. And while we do have to be careful not to turn into despots, we likewise have to make a stand SOMEWHERE lest we permit everything in the name of 'freedom", whether it is morally good or not.

While not all clothing made today for women–or men–is immodest, a lot is. . .and what’s worse, it’s excused and accepted as promoting a ‘cultural change’. . .so much easier to swallow the idea that one isn’t really sinning because ‘things change’.

People have lost much of their sense of sin IMO. . .and they haven’t replaced it with good; they’ve made the sin into the good so that they can say, “it was the old ways that were wrong, our new ways are really good. Or at least neutral.”
 
I think it is a bit excessive to ask women to that degree of modesty but I do think there is a problem nowadays. I’m in college and every time I walk to class, the girls are wearing shorts that barely cover their butts and tops that show a gross amount of cleavage. My boyfriend agrees with me and luckily he says he prays for these girls instead of thinking lustful thoughts. I’m sure the other guys do not do this and I think the way girls dress today causes guys and the girls themselves a problem. Girls want to find a gentleman but it’s kinda hard when you’re dressed like a hooker.

The hot temperature is not an excuse to show everything. There is a way to still be modest in the heat.
 
Not to be impertinent, but because the ‘context of the culture has changed’. . .does that necessarily mean that the change is correct?
I don’t know how one judges if the change is “correct” or not in terms of clothing.

In the early 1800s in England societal moral standards were relatively high: not only was proper sexual morality largely observed, but there was some lingering sense of responsibility on the part of the upper classes for the well-being of the dependent lower classes (markedly unlike English society during and after the industrial revolution.)

But the clothing of women in particular (despite the length of the dresses) is not anything I would feel was modest today (necklines! they were loooow.)

Certainly our culture’s standards of sexual morality have all but vanished; however as you say, this is not caused by the clothing that people wear. The standard of modesty is not particular dress, but the intent of the wearer.
That in different times and cultures some groups saw the human body differently doesn’t make Christian modesty ‘wrong’.
“Christian modesty” is not a particular set of clothing guidelines, but an interior disposition. Per the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
While not all clothing made today for women–or men–is immodest, a lot is. . .and what’s worse, it’s excused and accepted as promoting a ‘cultural change’. . .so much easier to swallow the idea that one isn’t really sinning because ‘things change’.

People have lost much of their sense of sin IMO. . .and they haven’t replaced it with good; they’ve made the sin into the good so that they can say, “it was the old ways that were wrong, our new ways are really good. Or at least neutral.”
Certainly people have lost their sense of sin, but I don’t think a change in the common garments worn has much to do with it… loss of the sense of sin came first.

And really, the present decay of our culture did not begin in the immodest 1960’s, but in the prim and proper 1800s when Protestantism began to gravitate away from the notion that children are a good and toward a promotion of contraception.
 
Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on pants being more ‘freeing’. My aunts (born in 1918 and 1921) and my mother (born in 1929) all grew up riding their bicycles (in dresses), mowed the lawn, weeded, gardened etc. in dresses, and (in my oldest aunt, who lived in NYC in the 1940s) was able to walk those streets, in dresses, and able to run as well from muggers as she could have were she wearing pants.

Now I surely don’t disagree that pants can be easier in some ways to wear, and honestly, if I were out milking the cows in midwinter or something I’d sure wear them, along with thermals! But I don’t really think that most women, in most social situations (including riding the bike to the store or walking on the street) would say that they NEEDED to wear pants. They might prefer it (especially having grown up for the most part doing so. . .familiarity is a big factor for most women), but again in most situations, all things being equal, they would have no more difficulty doing things wearing a modest dress than they would wearing modest pants, IMO.

Plus, today’s fabrics are much easier to care for than even those of the 50s and 60s. A lot of us who maybe remember the stiff, scratchy dresses we wore as children and compare them to soft, comfy denims don’t realize that a nice linen blend fabric can make a modest, soft, comfy dress —plus come in dozens of colors and patterns. And not many of us wear ‘patterned’ pants. . .it’s ‘blue’ jeans or solid colors mostly. We are mostly so conditioned into thinking we HAVE TO just ‘buy’ what’s available, and a lot of time pants are more flattering, available, fit better, and cost less. . .so women buy them because they can’t buy the soft comfy dress and don’t realize they could MAKE said dress.
 
Guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on pants being more ‘freeing’. My aunts (born in 1918 and 1921) and my mother (born in 1929) all grew up riding their bicycles (in dresses), mowed the lawn, weeded, gardened etc. in dresses, and (in my oldest aunt, who lived in NYC in the 1940s) was able to walk those streets, in dresses, and able to run as well from muggers as she could have were she wearing pants.
I guess so. I have never been able to ride a bike in a skirt of non-revealing length without catching the skirt in the chain and destroying it. I’d hazard a guess that bikes from that era were designed rather differently (no deraileur on “leisure” (as opposed to racing) bikes, I’d be willing to bet.)

And I defy anybody to weedwhack (rental housing, no lawnmower, and I’m not about to buy one) in a skirt without destroying said skirt.

As for the muggers-- the ones I’ve met come with guns (and sometimes pretty vile intentions.) I’ll take any advantage I can get.
Plus, today’s fabrics are much easier to care for than even those of the 50s and 60s.
True. And thank goodness! Also thank heaven for non-chlorine bleach.
We are mostly so conditioned into thinking we HAVE TO just ‘buy’ what’s available, and a lot of time pants are more flattering, available, fit better, and cost less. . .so women buy them because they can’t buy the soft comfy dress and don’t realize they could MAKE said dress.
I’ve investigated making my own clothes (when I was still living with my parents) and my sense is, unless you buy your cloth wholesale, it’s just not cost effective to make your own clothes. That and a sewing machine does not fit in my budget, nor my storage space.
 
Oh, does the modesty factor call for dresses-only?

Someone of the Latin-Mass-only club made a remark that pants, especially blue jeans, show a woman’s curves and hind den and how enticing that is to a man.

I never had thought of it before, but, I am consciencious of it, now. I try to wear shirts that cover that particular area when I wear trousers of any kind.

Men are such lustful creatures. It really is alarming to me. I suppose it never bothered me before, I even enjoyed the attention, but, lately, it is rather a burden to me to be on the curvy side.
 
Men are such lustful creatures. It really is alarming to me. I suppose it never bothered me before, I even enjoyed the attention, but, lately, it is rather a burden to me to be on the curvy side.
This is primarily what I disagree with (no offense Ceil-1). I should not be overly burdened by my curvy (or not) body b/c it is a GIFT from God. While I should not flaunt it, I should not feel the need to go out of my way to hide it either. Isn’t there a happy medium? I think that happy medium is met by remembering that we are called to be modest in dress & action. We should strive to preserve our dignity (and others) both in dress & action. We should strive to glorify God for the wonderous gifts He’s given us without flaunting.

I also dislike the stereotypical “Men are such lustful creatures.” Yes, men are visual by nature (more so typically than women), but that does NOT mean they all lust after every woman. It also does NOT mean that they lust more than women. Instead, it simply means they have their weaknesses as well as their strengths. Women who wear flattering clothing that respects their dignity and behave with dignity are NOT leading men to sin. Nor is every man who sees a beautiful woman lusting after her.
 
I love these threads! Can we get started with posting pictures of the fashionable, lovely outfits that meet the criteria opposed by the pictures of the gunny sack dresses advocated by the marginal protestant sects?! 😃 Oh and then we can get into the bathing suit wars. I love the suits that are cotton dresses with bike shorts underneath and are much uglier than anything the Victorians ever wore! :tanning:
 
I suppose that some men are “stimulated” by any pants on women, but that would be a small minority of men. Most men are not as “lustful” as you accuse us of being, and would not have a problem with pants in general.

(The super-skin-tight jeans that some women wear are another story, but I’m assuming that you are not wearing these.)
Oh, does the modesty factor call for dresses-only?

Someone of the Latin-Mass-only club made a remark that pants, especially blue jeans, show a woman’s curves and hind den and how enticing that is to a man.

I never had thought of it before, but, I am consciencious of it, now. I try to wear shirts that cover that particular area when I wear trousers of any kind.

Men are such lustful creatures. It really is alarming to me. I suppose it never bothered me before, I even enjoyed the attention, but, lately, it is rather a burden to me to be on the curvy side.
 
In regards to God, men, women, and what to wear in church, I one time heard something very interesting.

Between an invisible God, and visible woman, the visible woman would win every time.
 
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