Response to Dr. Mizzi's latest e-blast

[MarcoPolo]

I thought I would share my emailed response to Dr. Joe Mizzi’s latest e-blast which attempts, as always, to draw Catholics away from the Catholic Church.

Here’s how his e-blast goes:*Dear friends, I would like to share the following quotations for your consideration. Kind regards, Joe.

The Invocation of Saints

Is praying to the saints equivalent to asking other Christians to pray for us, as is often claimed by Catholic apologists? We can take a look at some prayers to check if this is so. I have selected a sample of prayers from a single source, the popular devotion by St. Alphonsus Liguori, The Glories of Mary, to facilitate easy reference [link]. As you read these prayers, please ask yourself, Do I speak like this when I ask a fellow Christian to pray for my needs? Is this the right attitude and language when addressing someone other than God?

· Oh Mary, I have the certain hope of being saved through thee (page 290).

· To thee, then, oh Mary, I present myself today, miserable as I am, and to thee I give myself entirely (page 474).

· Accept me, oh Mary, for thy own, and attend to my salvation, as I am thine own (page 38).*

etc…with other quotes asking Mary for intercession for our salvation…

Dr. Mizzi, you cannot verily present St. Alphonsus’ text as contrary to the Gospel without offering the sense in which it is meant. You would of course not criticize St. Paul for using similar language that he brings salvation to others: “If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and SALVATION…” (2 Cor 1:6). And you would not criticize St. James for also saying that members of the body of Christ bring salvation to others: “WHOEVER turns a sinner from the error of his way WILL SAVE HIM FROM DEATH…” (Jm 5:20). And you would not criticize the Lord for saying He would also bring salvation through His very people: “I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that YOU MAY BRING SALVATION to the ends of the earth.” (Act 13:47). Scripture attests that God will bring salvation to the world through His own children. This is the truth through which you should understand St. Alphonsus’ text or similar Catholic devotion if you a) which to honestly portray Catholic theology, and b) remain true to the same language found in Scripture. You attempt to put St. Alphonsus’ words as in competition with salvation through Christ. That is a false assertion. If Jesus tells His children that they will bring salvation to the world, are you going to accuse Him of teaching a false Gospel for saying salvation comes through members of the body? Of course not. So I’m afraid your interpretation of St. Alphonsus fails to see the truth of Christ’s grace operating through the members of the body.

 

[seanflynn]

That is fantastic, MarcoPolo. Thanks!

 

[LionHeart777]

good work Marco Polo, and very insightful to a “Tiber swimmer” like me. Please keep us posted if Dr. Mizzi responds.

 

[James224]

I thought I would share my emailed response to Dr. Joe Mizzi’s latest e-blast which attempts, as always, to draw Catholics away from the Catholic Church.

Here’s how his e-blast goes:*
Dear friends, I would like to share the following quotations for your consideration. Kind regards, Joe.
*

The Invocation of Saints

Is praying to the saints equivalent to asking other Christians to pray for us, as is often claimed by Catholic apologists? We can take a look at some prayers to check if this is so. I have selected a sample of prayers from a single source, the popular devotion by St. Alphonsus Liguori, The Glories of Mary, to facilitate easy reference [link]. As you read these prayers, please ask yourself, Do I speak like this when I ask a fellow Christian to pray for my needs? Is this the right attitude and language when addressing someone other than God?

· Oh Mary, I have the certain hope of being saved through thee (page 290).

· To thee, then, oh Mary, I present myself today, miserable as I am, and to thee I give myself entirely (page 474).

· Accept me, oh Mary, for thy own, and attend to my salvation, as I am thine own (page 38).

etc…with other quotes asking Mary for intercession for our salvation…

Dr. Mizzi, you cannot verily present St. Alphonsus’ text as contrary to the Gospel without offering the sense in which it is meant. You would of course not criticize St. Paul for using similar language that he brings salvation to others: “If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and SALVATION…” (2 Cor 1:6). And you would not criticize St. James for also saying that members of the body of Christ bring salvation to others: “WHOEVER turns a sinner from the error of his way WILL SAVE HIM FROM DEATH…” (Jm 5:20). And you would not criticize the Lord for saying He would also bring salvation through His very people: “I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that YOU MAY BRING SALVATION to the ends of the earth.” (Act 13:47). Scripture attests that God will bring salvation to the world through His own children. This is the truth through which you should understand St. Alphonsus’ text or similar Catholic devotion if you a) which to honestly portray Catholic theology, and b) remain true to the same language found in Scripture. You attempt to put St. Alphonsus’ words as in competition with salvation through Christ. That is a false assertion. If Jesus tells His children that they will bring salvation to the world, are you going to accuse Him of teaching a false Gospel for saying salvation comes through members of the body? Of course not. So I’m afraid your interpretation of St. Alphonsus fails to see the truth of Christ’s grace operating through the members of the body.

In the introduction of the Glories of Mary, St. Alphonsus Liquori has a caveat which says he totally submits to the church on any assertions he makes in the book. He also says, in so many words, that Christ is the source of our salvation. I’m going from memory but I remember answering someone about this a few years ago.

Salvation can definitely come THROUGH Mary. St. Alphonsus Liquori knew of Mary as Mediatrix and if a protestant honestly read about what we believe regarding mediatrix, he would have to admit that there is no contradiction between what we say about Mary and that Christ is the ultimate source of our salvation.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Thanks, all, for the nice comments. Edifying.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Somebody needs to familiarize Dr. Mizzi with Genesis 3:15.

That Woman is Mary. Israel, the other candidate, wasn’t at enmity with the devil.

And Revelation 12.

That Woman is also Mary. Israel didn’t give birth to Christ. Her children are the ones who “keep the testimony of Christ” – that’s not Judaism.

Keep us posted on any reply.

 

[MarcoPolo]

So here’s how the conversation with Dr. Mizzi has gone since what I posted here in the OP. I may still reply again, we’ll see…but it has gone nowhere so far.

*Hi Sam,
Thanks for your letter.
There are similar passages in Scripture that underline the preacher/christian’s role in the salvation of souls, mainily through the proclamation of the gospel message. But having preached the gospel, no Christian preacher will dare ask people to hope in him or his intercessory prayers on the grounds of his merits for their salvation. A faithful preacher of the Gospel tells people to trust in Christ, to hope in Christ, that they are justified by faith, and that Christ welcomes them with open arms as soon as they depart from this world.
Yours sincerely,
Joe.

Ok, that doesn’t address the Scripture I posted. But I think the false dichotomy comes in the “merits of a preacher” VERSUS Jesus. It’s not one versus the other. The merits of a Christian are Christ’s own, as St. Augustine said–Christ crowns His own merits (i.e. parable of the talents and all that). Catholic theology does not sever the members of the body from the Head. That’s why God’s people can be said to bring salvation to the world. It’s not their merits VERSUS Jesus’. And that’s why your interpretation of St. Alphonsus is unequivocally wrong. Have you ever read St. Alphonsus’ writings on Christ’s Passion? Let me share an excerpt:

The slave sins, and Thou, Lord, payest the penalty for him. If, therefore, I think of my sins, the thought of the punishment I deserve must make me tremble; but when I think of Thy death, I find I have more reason to hope than to fear. O blood of Jesus! Thou art all my hope. If you can wrap your mind around that as well as St. Alphonsus’ words on Mary, then you might be closer to understanding true Christian theology. As it stands now, you don’t.

Sam

Dear Sam,

St Alphonsus has written about the value of the death of Christ, and yet, it seems that Christ’s merits are not sufficient to ascertain the believer’s salvation, for he also appeals to the merits of others, for instance, in his book The Glories of Mary, St Alphonsus states plainly why we should seek intercession. He writes, “Hence St. Bernard exhorts every sinner to pray to Mary, and to feel great confidence in praying to her; because if he does not deserve what he demands, yet Mary obtains for him, by her merits, the graces which she asks of God for him.” Please note the reason why he exhorts us to seek Mary’s intercession - conscious of his unworthiness, the sinner is taught to hope in her merits.

It is futile to argue that our merits are ultimately the merits of Christ! The Council of Trent curses you if you say “that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified.” Your merits, Sam, are yours!

We are called to believe on Christ alone for salvation; seeking the aid of Mary or whoever else, or working to increase your merits for justification, is an indication of incomplete trust in the one whose name alone was given among men that we may be saved.

Kind regards,

Joe.

Yes, they are properly our merits (did I say otherwise?) but again, they are Christ’s gifts returned to Him just as the parable of the talents teaches and the verses I posted you originally that have gone unaddressed. Catholics believe God’s grace has some value in empowering us. Your theology apparently does not. Either we are members of the body of Christ or we are not. Either we are branches on the power source–the vine–or we are not. You desire to pit members of the body of Christ versus the head, but that is faulty thinking. If you cannot see the Christ in your Christian neighbor then that is a blindness problem. What can be said other than you have a different theology. It would be nice if you could accurately articulate the Catholic theology you oppose though. Maybe someday you’ll send the quotes from the Catechism that begin with Christ’s sacrifice and send that to your e-mail list. I hope you don’t find it much easier to segment the writings of St. Alphonsus to advance ulterior purposes instead.

God bless,
Sam

Dear Sam,
The question is not about God’s enabling Christians to perform good works; nor is it whether those works deserve to be rewarded, but whether a sinner is justified before God on account, at least in part, of the merits of those works. Sadly that is what Catholic theology, including St Alphonsus, teaches … and that is the denial of the gospel of gratuitous salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ.
Yours sincerely,
Joe.

​

*

 

[m134e5]

The communion of saints is a family. It isn’t just about me, God, and my bible. We have a responsibility to help each other and to pray for each other. That extends beyond this life; those who have already made it are in perfect communion with God- that means they love His commandments, and they love humanity for His sake. They want to help us grow closer to God, and they pray for us- as we should pray for each other.

 

[MarcoPolo]

Well, here’s what I ended up sending him. *I’m only going to respond to this comment of yours because I think what I’ve said to this point all still stands unrefuted: “Catholic theology… is the denial of the gospel of gratuitous salvation by grace alone through faith in Christ.”

Now in case you have missed the following on official magisterial teaching on justification, I’ll review it here. The council of Trent, session six teaches 180 degrees opposite what you claimed in the above quote.

TRENT: “And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that NONE OF THOSE THINGS WHICH PRECEDE JUSTIFICATION-WHETHER FAITH OR WORKS-MERIT THE GRACE ITSELF OF JUSTIFICATION. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.”

So in order to honestly portray Catholicism to your audience, you should provide the above teaching.

Now for Catholics, as opposed to most Protestants, justification has an initial stage that puts us in a position to enter heaven. That is what the previous Trent quote teaches. Protestants have a binary view of justification which excludes sanctification. Catholics also believe in a binary justification----in a sense—that one is either in a state of justification or not (aka, a “state of grace”) meaning a soul at any moment is bound either for heaven or hell. However, Catholics believe one can be more conformed to Christ throughout the course of their lives. Among many Scriptural examples, Hebrews 12 teaches that God still chastises His “sons” for the sake of their “holiness.” This is called sanctification. Expressed another way, it is an advancement in justification. Because the holier one gets by grace, the closer he is to his final heavenly self which will be fully united with God, presented spotless and without blemish, as Scripture says. So the closer one is to his final heavenly state, the more justified he can be said to be.

This is in full conformity with the entirety of Scripture, as Trent notes:

TRENT: “Before men…who have been justified…are to be set the words of the Apostle: “Abound in every good work, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Lord”; “for God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name”;…For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified,-as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches,-and THIS VIRTUE ALWAYS PRECEDES AND ACCOMPANIES AND FOLLOWS THEIR GOOD WORKS, WHICH WITHOUT IT COULD NOT IN ANY WISE BE PLEASING AND MERITORIOUS BEFORE GOD.”

Now your tradition does not believe grace capacitates a soul. Essentially, your tradition does not believe Christ’s very grace merits justification if that gift of grace should flow willingly through the soul to whom it is given. Politely, your tradition is truly the one that denies the power of Jesus Christ’s grace. If you argue that the soul utilizing the gift of grace he was given does not accomplish merit with that grace, then it’s the power of Christ’s grace you deny.

This is likely due to the Protestant tradition that justification is imputed, not infused. If the righteousness of Christ were merely imputed, that God pretends the unholy soul is holy like Jesus, then there would be no need for sanctification and Protestants would be correct. However, passages like the aforementioned one in Hebrews teach the need for sanctification and others like James 2 plainly teach that works are included in the Biblical concept of justification—i.e. the complete concept of justification, not the sans-sanctification concept held by most Protestants.

So you can continue to claim that Catholics deny salvation is by grace through Christ if you wish. If you continue to fail to represent the complete view of salvation in Catholic theology—if you continue to fail to acknowledge the Catholic teaching of salvation entirely founded in Christ’s grace—I know I certainly would not want to be in your position and have to answer for that.

God bless,
Sam*

 

[MarcoPolo]

And here’s Dr. Mizzi’s reply again. I can’t foresee responding anymore. He doesn’t engage with the material I provide and instead utilizes the ignore-repeat method of discussion. What he said below is already refuted by what I have already explained. He continues to deny the power of grace in man, pitting man versus grace. He continues reading into Trent that man “adds” to grace something separate from the power of grace. If God should capacitate man to merit reward by grace, Dr. Mizzi believes man therefore takes away from God, rather than recognizing the generosity of God, or that grace is a share of divine life. Of the concepts of vine and branches or Christ the head of the many members, Dr. Mizzi shows zero grasp.

It’s up to the Spirit.

Dear Sam,

In its official writings, the Catholic Church teaches that faith is important; but it also insists on the necessity of good works to merit eternal life, as can be verified from the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them, or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema.

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ’s sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life, provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Official Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome’s salvation by works!

But what about canon 1 which clearly asserts that we are not justified by our works. “If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.”

This canon gives an initial impression that Rome denies justification by works just as the Bible (and evangelicals) also do. In fact it does not! The canon simply says that a man cannot be justified by performing the works of the Law by his own natural powers. However, the same canon indicates that a man can ‘receive divine grace through Jesus Christ’ to perform the works necessary for justification. In other words, Rome teaches that God helps man to do good works and hence to fully satisfy the Law. Only then is a person qualified to enter heaven. The Council of Trent elaborates this idea in chapter 16:

“For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually infuses his virtue into the said justified, - as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, - and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works, which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, - we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace…”

 

[MarcoPolo]

To be fair, we should acknowledge that a great emphasis is placed on Jesus Christ and the grace of God. Good works do not originate in man’s natural ability but can only be performed through Jesus Christ. Yet, it is also true that these works do not cease to be the good works of the Christian; personal works give him the right to heaven.

So then, what is required for a person to be justified at the end, that is, to be accounted to have fully satisfied divine law, and therefore to merit eternal life? Trent answers: THEIR GOOD WORKS! Their good works fully satisfy the divine law. Their works merit eternal life.

Catholic theology insists that the Christian’s good works are truly his good merits, and by these works, he preserves and increases the initial righteousness received in baptism to finally attain eternal life (canons 24 and 32). Without doubt, the official documents of the Roman Catholic Church teach justification by works.

In contrast to this, the Bible declares:

"Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes (reckons, credits to one’s account) righteousness apart from works" (Romans 4:4-6).

The Bible asserts that he who “does not work” but “believes” is justified before God. Justification is not the reward for our works. Justification is the free gift of grace which we do not merit. The works that a Christian performs - and every true believer performs good works - are not the basis of their acceptance before God. The blood and righteousness of Jesus is the only basis for the believer’s justification. “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him… by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous” (Romans 5:9, 19).

That is the true Gospel; Rome’s message is counterfeit.

Sincerely,

Joe.