Response to "Fruits of V2"?

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I have to say that as much as I love JPII, his management style is partially responsible for the state of the Church now. I think he’s been an excellent teacher and example for the Church, but his motto of “proposing” instead of “imposing” has allowed dissent far more room to grow than under previous popes. Perhaps Paul VI managed in the same way, I don’t know. But can you imagine our present-day “Catholic” politicians surviving so long without excommunication under Pius X? The mayor of Podunk would have been excommunicated for being pro-abortion, let alone a United States Senator. JPII’s is a different pastoral approach that has some positives, but being a student at Notre Dame and suffering under the effects of not reining in dissenting theologians I come to like it less and less every year.
 
Catholic Eagle:
Otm:
What abuses were there in the TLM when you were growing up. DO you remember them? Give me at least 3 please.
I’m not Otm but I can give you three. Now I admit these aren’t mine - I wasn’t there but I speak from my parent’s perspective.
  1. priests running through the words so fast they couldn’t be understood
  2. people either praying the rosary or otherwise not paying attention to the altar
  3. people worried about how late they could arrive and how early they could leave to make sure they attended a “legal” Mass
Was the TLM celebrated correctly? - most definitely - at times. Can the NO be celebrated correctly? - most definitely - at times. What frustrates me is the implication that TLM was perfect without any abuses and the world would be a better place if that was our only option. All liturgy is subject to abuses.

Kris
 
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kwitz:
  1. priests running through the words so fast they couldn’t be understood
  2. people either praying the rosary or otherwise not paying attention to the altar
  3. people worried about how late they could arrive and how early they could leave to make sure they attended a “legal” Mass
  1. How many people could speak Latin? Not many not even amongst Traditionalists.Anyway the focus of the Mass is on the Unbloody Sacrifice of the Cross not if we can hear and understand what Father is saying.
  2. Popes actually allowed people to pray the Rosary during Mass. I have been to a Catholic school elementary Mass, I saw kids sleeping through the whole Mass.[new Mass] Same at Sunday Masses. Unattentiveness is a personal problem.
    3.I have seen people who don’t care if the Mass is legal, who come in during the Readings and leave after Communion still today.
    The abuses you state are still around in many places.These abuses aren’t exclusive to the Traditional Latin Mass.
 
Catholic Eagle:
The abuses you state are still around in many places.These abuses aren’t exclusive to the Traditional Latin Mass.
You just made my point. There will be abuses in any version of the Mass that allows us imperfect humans to participate. The TLM is not a cure all for abuses. As long as it’s licit, I don’t care what Mass others choose to attend; I just resent the implication that all was perfect and rosy when TLM was the norm.

Kris
 
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kwitz:
I’m not Otm but I can give you three. Now I admit these aren’t mine - I wasn’t there but I speak from my parent’s perspective.
  1. priests running through the words so fast they couldn’t be understood
  2. people either praying the rosary or otherwise not paying attention to the altar
  3. people worried about how late they could arrive and how early they could leave to make sure they attended a “legal” Mass
These are not abuses - In a Latin Mass it is most common not to hear the priest at all. You should be praying the Mass not listening to it.

Praying the rosary during Mass is not the “Perfect” way to pray mass. But it is still very, very exceptable.

People who do the minimum just to cover their Sunday duties, that show their lack of devotion, not liturgical abuse.

Last Sunday, we went to an English Mass for the 1st time in 11 years. We were completely lost. I handed my daughter a rosary to pray, half way through the mass she handed it back. There was too much noise and distraction to pray. I wanted to yell for everyone to be quiet I couldn’t pray! I’m pretty sure we will not be back for a long time.
 
I would not hold that V.II caused the problems in the Church, but I don’t think V.II gave the Church what she needed. People sometimes cite Trent as a ‘hurling down of anathemas’, by which they mean to imply that it is inappropriate to anathematize; they argue that the Church was fighting the Protestant heresy and was thus led into a ‘shell’: the Church is always stronger when she clarifies herself through conflict. At every turn, when disagreement arose, the Church emerged the stronger for clarifying what the truth was. The clash with modernism requires equally clear treatment.

After Trent, the Church was quite healthy, but there are many, many problems now. It isn’t the case that V.II taught errors, but it isn’t necessarily the case that V.II was exactly ‘what the doctor ordered’. A lot of wiggle room was left in documents, room that was subsequently exploited by aggressive theologians and bishops who wanted to push the envelope and drive the Church toward what might be called modernism, e.g. refusing to assert the details of the faith and the differences between the faith and other views of God, and tampering with the liturgy far in excess of what the Council actually ordered.

What was needed at the time was not a series of vague, documents but, e.g., clear statements about modesty in dress, the importance of care in selecting reading and viewing materials: remember that we are in the world but should not be of the world.

“The fruits of V.II” might be thought to subsume all those things which happened in the wake of the Council, which strictly speaking aren’t necessarily the fault of the Council. They may be the fault of Church management. A commonplace example of faulty Church management is in the news every other month or so: the huge problem with bishops ferrying sexual predators from parish to parish: Why isn’t there a consequence for those who facilitated the sin for which millstones are prescribed? When someone asks you to comment on the ‘fruits of V.II’ you can’t deny that there are problems. The primary contribution of V.II is vague language that ended up permitting a great deal of mischief.

Many of the putative benefits of V.II are dubious. People believe that the Bible is now more fully read, but an article I have previously mentioned demonstrates that many critical segments of the Gospels are omitted from Sunday cycles, segments that detail hell, or woman in church, and other topics that modern man doesn’t want to hear. People believe that the liturgy is now adapted to the needs of diverse cultures, but with participation falling dramatically, and given the need for (and ecclesiastical tradition of seeking) unity, it is hard to suppose that needs are being met. Participation of the faithful is another oft-cited advance, but now only a small fraction of Catholics even attend Sunday Mass, so their participation is zero; also the traditional rite of Mass allows for very reverent partipation: this fact must never be a requirement for anyone, however, as that would breed resentment: indeed, the “traditionalist” does not seek to impose the traditional rite on all, but merely wants it to be available, without tampering. Lay people are now supposed to exercise ministries, but religious orders have collapsed; their growth is a standard measure of the life of the Church. Lay people are all very good and well, but it is the religious who lead the way in giving an example of a life of prayer.

Making these observations in no wise renders me unCatholic. Indeed it is my right, and my duty, to observe the objective reality, and to be clear about my spiritual needs. The Catholic faith has never ignored objective reality in any field – no, not even in astronomy. And, if you are asked about the “fruits”, you simply have to tell the truth: there are problems. Then you must be able to explain where the problems come from. Blaming the world is not good enough, not by a long shot.
 
Catholic Eagle: you asked for abuses (I am not sure I like that word; one person’s abuse is another’s annoyance; see, e.g. Archbishop Chaput’s response to holding hands during the Our Father), and kwitz gave three good ones.

Try twelve minute low Masses. By a drunken priest (and he was no an anomoly). We (altar boys) came to the conclusion that he could not only speak Latin breathing out, but also breathing in. Try it; it is quite a feat.

I don’t really care if some pope said that people could say the rosary during Mass; I still consider it an abuse, and I am not going to play trump with the issue. All too many people pre V2 reacted to the Mass as if it was magic, or something so indistinguishable from magic as to be not worth the parsing. The Mass wasn’t, and isn’t something to be done to us; it is the penultimate liturgical prayer of the Church; and as such, it should be prayed by all. It is our spiritual Food; it is hard to see how we are nourished if we don’t partake. And the partaking is not limited to Communion.

Try sloppy rubrics, with little real sense of presence; it seemed all too often that the priest was simply going through the motions. Try minimalism. I know that some people who are late and leave early truly have other issues (sick family members; rushing to allow the other parent to attend another Mass ; work schedules which they do not control); but my observation is that it is people born pre V2 who seem to be the minimalists. IMO I find that most people are at Mass because they want to be, not because they have to be, and that is a positive change.

Are some of the problems from pre V2 still with us? Yes. Strangely enough, V2 did not change the human condition. But all the squawking about V2 seems to be done by people with rose colored glasses as to “what it was like in the old days”.
 
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Mandi:
You should be praying the Mass not listening to it.

Praying the rosary during Mass is not the “Perfect” way to pray mass. But it is still very, very exceptable.

Sorry, Mandi. but I can’t figure out how to put these two together. We come together as community to celebrate the Lord’s Supper.
Praying the Rosary during Mass makes as much sense to me as going to your mother’s house for dinner; sitting there with your nose in a book, or bringing a friend along and having a private conversation with them while a conversation is going on amongst the rest of the family in a way that pointedly excludes them, and continuing this while dinner is being served and eaten. The Mass is the penultimate liturgical prayer of the Church. You are part of the Church. Saying the rosary is a nice devotion, but does not constitute participation at Mass. And I would welcome your reference to anything from Rome in the last 30 years; or for that matter, anything form a bishop, or group of bishops in concert in the last thiry years, anything the the Catechism, or any official documentation you can point to which says that saying the Rosary during Mass is very, very acceptabel; or for that matter, acceptable at all.

I am not sure what noise and distration you were referring to at the Mass in English you attended; was it children? Music? People responding to prayers with a response? Given that the whole Mass is a prayer, if you were paying attention, how could you not be praying? Or is it that we have different definitions of prayer? How can you listen to the readings from the Old and New Testament, and not be praying? How can you respond to the Psalm and not be praying? How can you say the responses to the priest and not be praying? How can you listen to the priest pray, in your own tongue, the Canon of the Mass and not be praying? That, I just don’t get. The only thing I can pick up from your comments is that prayer is something in silence; I see prayer as much broader than that.
 
CSR: I guess another of my pet peeves, along with the use of the word “abuse”, is the use of the word “modernism”. It is thrown around with fantastic abandon, mostly by people who have only the most minimal, if any, exposure to philosophy. Modernism, as a philosophical term, stems from a movement going back to near the beginning of the last century, if not before. Since then there have been any number of other philosophical theories and ventures (anyone recall Existentialism?). But now it becomes the bannner and rallying cry of people who don’t like what is going on, and have neither the time, the patience or the background to sort out what caused what.

V2 is not the source of the sexual abuse by priests. The Sexual revolution is, and that started in the 90’s. As in, the 1890’s. It got into swing (no pun intended) in the Roaring 20’s; was fueled by the gasoline thrown on the flames by the decision of the Lambeth Conference in 1930 to allow the use of birth control in limited circumstances within families by the Anglican?Episcopalian Church, went down hill from there until by 1965, the Catholic Church was the only church refusing to accept birth control; and blew wide open with the “free love” movement of the 60’s.

I don’t think that the documents of V2 are as vague as you would have them to be. And by your statement that what the Church needed at the time was staements about modesty in dress and care in selecting reading materials leads me to believe that you have not sat down and read the documents, and that you are unaware of where the Church was at when the Council convened, and what needed work. Not that modesty is not an issue; but to suggest that Ecumenism, or Ecclesiology, or any other of the number of issues addressed had no need of further work is to have no understanding at all of what Vatican 2 was about. Go read the documents; they are widely available.
 
Re: “V2 is not the source of the sexual abuse by priests. The Sexual revolution is, and that started in the 90’s. As in, the 1890’s.”

After Vatican II, the rules surrounding admission to seminaries, and the candidate characteristics sought/rejected by seminaries, were changed. The SSPX still uses pre-V2 guidelines for admission to the priesthood (1), which can be inspected to observe how key issues are/were handled. Vatican II has a lovely document describing the priesthood, but something got lost in the translation. So, it is true that V2 is not the “source”, but I didn’t say it was.

I did suggest that to blame (in some sense) the world for problems in the Church is an error. This pattern is encountered frequently in these discussions. An example is quoted above. The Church is divinely ordained, and must always accept responsibility for mis-steps. There is even a secular shibboleth: “Always accept responsibility.” That notion is found in get-ahead business-type books. It is not acceptable to say, “The Protestants are also having problems!” The Protestant heresy was not ordained by God. It is not acceptable to say, “Society makes our priests do dirty things proscribed by Scripture!” The Church must accept responsibility – and when she fails to do this, secular society steps in and enforces acceptance of guilt. This is exactly what is happening now. The Novus Ordo will lose many more parishes before this is through.
 
Whilst I accept that V2 is valid, because of the ambiguity of a number of its documents, it can only lead to error.

Why were some of the documents “ALLOWED” to be ambigious in the first place?

When abuses started occuring, why were they not dealt with immediately - Pope Pius X style?

The question we all must ask is this, as this is the most important question:

Are more Catholics informed of their faith and living their faith as a result of V2. Do Catholic’s now commit more Mortal Sins (e.g. Contraception, Divorce,Failure to Pray, Failure to Priovide for the Church) or less Mortal Sins as a result of V2.

Are more Catholics now on the road to perdition as a result of V2 and its fruits?

The Churches job has always been to be the roadmap to heaven, and the provided of the sacraments to help us get there. If less Catholics are making it now as many more die in mortal sin then V2 has failed. At least before V2 most Catholics were aware of sin and its eternal consequences. When these days do you hear sermons preached on the last 4 things? Seldom if ever.
 
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otm:
Sorry, Mandi. but I can’t figure out how to put these two together. We come together as community to celebrate the Lord’s Supper.
The Mass is not a celebation of the Lord’s Supper. You have been misinformed and mistaught - this is probably the BIGGEST bad fruit of Vatican II. That the Sacrafice has been forgotten and replaced with the idea that we are attending a party.

"Christ becomes present on the altar. But He is not merely present, He acts. He is not there as the Babe of Bethlehem, nor as the Child of Nazareth, nor as the Christ who went about doing good. He is there as the Crucified, as the Christ of Calvary, as the VICTIM offered for our salvation. He is there making intercession for us by the voice of His blood, praising and thanking His Heavenly Father for us, applying to us the expiatory merits of His Sacred Passion and Death.

I’m sorry to say if you are going to Mass like you go and visit your mother. You are not attending properly. You are to go with the intention of offering the Divine Sacrafice.

As for praying the Rosary, when done properly you are meditating on the life and death of Our Lord. There is no more perfect place than Mass.

The Seven Great Blessings
The Secret of the Rosary - St. Louis De Montfort
  1. It gradually gives us a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ;
  2. It purifies our souls, washing away sin;
  3. It gives us victory over all our enemies;
  4. It makes it easy for us to practice virtue;
  5. It sets us on fire for love of Our Blessed Lord;
  6. It enriches us with graces and merits;
  7. It supplies us with what is needed to pay all our debts to God and to our fellow men, and finally, it obtains all kins of graces for us from Almighty God.
 
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otm:
I don’t really care if some pope said that people could say the rosary during Mass; I still consider it abuse
That is a pretty anti-catholic statement - kind up ranks right up there with “I don’t care what JPII says, my ways right”
 
That is a pretty anti-catholic statement - kind up ranks right up there with “I don’t care what JPII says, my ways right”

No, Mandi, that is not anti-Catholic, it is extremely Catholic. It is Catholic to understand that popes make many statements, almost all of which are not infallible as in ex cathedra (there have only been to ex cathedra staements in the history of the Church). When they are teaching doctrines or morals, they are infallible in their teaching. A comment about a liturgical practice is not an infallible statment as it is not about doctrines or morals; and if you think I’m wrong about that, go ask Karl or Jimmy. The rosary does not belong in the middle of Mass, period. And I still wlecome you to refer to any authoritive statemnet to the contrary in the last 30 years.

And the official teaching of the Church is that the mass is both sacrifice and sacred meal. I will grant for the sake of argument that in some quarters there has been too much emohasis on the sacred meal and too little on the sacrifice. But let’s stick to what the Church teaches in its fullenss.

And as for properly attending, I was using an analogy; go back and read the comment again. Praying the rosary or any other personal devotion during the Mass is “doing your own thing”, rather than joining in with the rest of the community in the penultimate act of worship of the Church. And you and I, through the sacrament ob baptism, are members of that Church just as much as the priest.
 
CSR: I don’t follow all of the abuse cases around the United States; we have enough right here to casue our archdiocese to file for bankruptcy. And not all of the priests accused of abuse were pre V2; one of my seminary classmates has been accused by multiple defendants (interestingly, he was a chaplain at the state reform school, so the State of Oregon is a codefendant). However, most of the priests charged with sexual abuse were ordained pre V2. So while I would agree that there has been a change in admission policies, your argument doesn’t wash in too many circumstances. This is another reason that I get frustrated with people who accuse V2 of causing our problems. Do we have problems? Boy howdy! Are they due to V2? I think not.

I am not trtying to shift blame from the Church. But the Church is in the world, while not of the world. However, whatever is going on in the world is bound to be reflected in the Church; people in the Church are not removed from society. We are supposed to be the leven in the world; too often, we seem to end up making vinegar. I don’t want to appear as if I am blaming the world for the problems in the Church. But the problems in the Church are often sourced in the world. As the world becomes more sexually “free” (I use the term reluctantly), so do people’s attitudes in the Church.
 
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otm:
Praying the rosary or any other personal devotion during the Mass is “doing your own thing”, rather than joining in with the rest of the community
It always breaks my heart when I read or hear someone criticizing the way people went to Mass in the 50s or before. You don’t know what was in the heart and mind of the person praying the Rosary at that time. Comments like this ride roughshod in the most abusive way over the faith of millions. There are so many dimensions of prayer during Mass, and the Novus Ordo turns the whole affair into a rote routine with many interruptions: this you refuse to recognize.

Be very careful about condemning the pre-Vatican-2 church and church-goers. It is almost certainly the case that the critics are exaggerating the problems of the past to assuage their doubts about the present. The dead can’t “defend” their spirituality, and are easy to caricature (for those with the ‘heart’ to do so). What needs to happen in the Church is for those who find their needs better met with the traditional rites and the traditional catechesis to be respected and for their freedom to partake of those rights to be widely recognized. If you are against this idea, you are against the tide: not only are Novus Ordo Catholics dropping out of the Church at a fast pace over the decades, and not only are parishes and dioceses now in huge financial straits, but the Church spokesmen have plainly stated, with increasing certainty over the years, that the needs of “traditional” Catholics are to be respected. Obey.
 
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otm:
one of my seminary classmates has been accused by multiple defendants
YOU are a seminarian!!! Imagine my sorrow at this thought

We have a saying regarding the EXTREME responsiblity of those who take a religious vows, much is asked and you are responsible for actions, words and teachings.

“the walls of hell are lined with priest and the floor are paved with bishops.”

It is hard to imagine that one who would consider taking a religious vow would speak with such contempt regarding the rosary. And before you come back and tell me that contempt was not your intention. I will just say that that is what came across regardless of your intention. And that is serious business, if you want to be a religious.
 
Mandi: Try reading what is written, instead of simply reacting to it. I have expressed no disrespect for the rosary whatsoever. What I said was that it is a personal devotion that has no business in the Mass. Again, I invite you to direct me to any official documents out of Rome in the last 30 to 40 years that say anything indicating that it is ok to say the Rosary during Mass. The Mass is not something that is doen to you; it is something that you do with the Church; it is the penultimate liturguical act. Whether it is said in English, or Swahili, or Latin, you are still a participant, not an observer. Participation does not imply doing something else.

And obviously I was not crystal clear in part of my response to CSR, but the content should have given you a clue: My class mate as a chaplain (that means he was ordained, and at a post long enough to allegedly commit multiple abuses) was ordained. I am not a seminarian; I was, for two years just as V2 was closing. I see no contempt for the Rosary in anything I have said; and I am not trying to attack you. Read a little more carefully before you impugn my comments, attitudes or motives. :rolleyes:
 
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csr:
It always breaks my heart when I read or hear someone criticizing the way people went to Mass in the 50s or before.
Breaks my heart too! 2000 years of Church History so readily wiped out and condemned.

I have another saying “cut the root and destroy the tree”

How much fruit can a tree bear without any roots?

Just a thought
 
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csr:
It always breaks my heart when I read or hear someone criticizing the way people went to Mass in the 50s or before. You don’t know what was in the heart and mind of the person praying the Rosary at that time. Comments like this ride roughshod in the most abusive way over the faith of millions. There are so many dimensions of prayer during Mass, and the Novus Ordo turns the whole affair into a rote routine with many interruptions: this you refuse to recognize.

Be very careful about condemning the pre-Vatican-2 church and church-goers. It is almost certainly the case that the critics are exaggerating the problems of the past to assuage their doubts about the present. The dead can’t “defend” their spirituality, and are easy to caricature (for those with the ‘heart’ to do so). What needs to happen in the Church is for those who find their needs better met with the traditional rites and the traditional catechesis to be respected and for their freedom to partake of those rights to be widely recognized. If you are against this idea, you are against the tide: not only are Novus Ordo Catholics dropping out of the Church at a fast pace over the decades, and not only are parishes and dioceses now in huge financial straits, but the Church spokesmen have plainly stated, with increasing certainty over the years, that the needs of “traditional” Catholics are to be respected. Obey.
A: facts are facts, and I was there. I am tired of the attacks on what you call the Novus Ordo; I believe the correct term is the Ordo Missae. The only people I hear use Novus Ordo are those with an attitude somewhere between disdain and thinly veiled contempt. I am not attacking or condemning anyone. I am trying to point out that there is an attitude of romanticism about, which purports to say that all was better pre V2, and religiosity and piety went down the tubes with the changes in the Mass. I say hogwash. There were both good and bad priests before and after. There were people who understood what the Mass was about before V2, and altogether too many who didn’t.

B: It will be a long time, perhaps well beyond either of out lifetimes before the Liturgy will be sorted out to the point that it is as settled as the Tridentine Mass was settled 50 years ago (or, for that matter, 350 years ago). But I simply don’t see any massive movement to abandon the current Order of the Mass, and go back to the Tridentine rite.

I agree that a large number of Catholics have dropped out, but I don’t find any connection between the rite and the drop out rate. I find it to be directly connected to catechesis and the change that moral theology took when it hit the slippery slope of neo-situational ethics, if you will. Catholics got the idea that sin was done away with, and stopped going to Mass, and started cohabiting, and etc. The rite wasn’t the cause.

C; I don’t doubt the heart and the mind of those saying the Rosary was pious; but given how fantastic the liturgy is, if you have a clue of what it is all about, they were missing a whole lot.

D: the Mass in English turns it into a rout (I think you meant rote) routine with a lot of interruptions??? With more readings, with all the prayers said in my language, you call that rote? No more than the Tridentine Mass, and I experience a lot less of the roteness.
 
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