Response to gay marriage video?

[Awful_Things]

Perhaps I would be better understood is my history was known. Portion of my family lived in Mozambique in the 70’s. My favorite aunt was a missionary nun. The Catholic church was associated with the government there. The government used the Church for recruiting votes in exchange to legislation that promote catholic values. The government was also corrupt and had a profound disregard for human rights. Because of that association overturning the government evolved into religious prosecution. One of my aunts best friends was pregnant. She had the baby removed from her womb and parade in the streets on a stake. This is what happens when we don’t have separation of church and state. Give us new appreciation to the wisdom our forefathers does it not?
Today we live in a country were the majority is Christian… There is a little anti-catholic sentiment, it would be difficult to elect another catholic president, even after Kennedy. Americans did elect presidents Hover and W. Bush in part over anti-catholic sentiment. Yet because we Catholics are Christians we do not oppose the use of the bible in policy making. We think because we identify with the majority the separation of church and state is not that important. What if the public schools today start teaching the world is only 6000 years old and the fossil record is only a test from God to verify our faith. Again we Catholics have John Paul II wisdom guiding us to see evolution differently. (see John Paul II 1996 a message to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences)
What would happen then if Christianity would no longer be a majority? The Muslin faith is the fastest growing religion in the world. France does not have a Christian majority anymore. What would happen if 200 or 300 years from now the majority was muslin? How comfortable would you be than if the religious majority was to use religion to enforce morality legislation then. Would you be comfortable with your great grand daughter using a burka ?
I believe we should not use our faith to impose our values upon others. We should respect the separation of church and state when we are the majority instead of complaining it does not exists anymore we became the minority.

I get all of that. But please read my posts more carefully. The bulk of my argument (as to the definition of a civil marriage) is secular. The idea that making gay marriage legal might infringe on religious liberties (the other part of my main argument) is also a secular argument as it doesn’t involve theology, but liberties.

Thus, your background points to some tragic happenings and I respect the insight your experience brings, but doesn’t really have any bearing on either of those two secular premises, so my point still stands.

 

[social_aware]

I am afraid I may be misunderstood in the above poster. I just want to clarify that I DO NOT blame the church for the religious prosecution in Mozambique in the 70’s. I blame the rebels that today would be called terrorists. And I blame the lack of separation of church and state. Again it is very comfortable to be the majority. When you are majority you don’t feel the loss of rights and freedom. This advantage however should come with the responsibility of ensuring that the ones that are different from you are respected and treated equally.

 

[social_aware]

I get all of that. But please read my posts more carefully. The bulk of my argument (as to the definition of a civil marriage) is secular. The idea that making gay marriage legal might infringe on religious liberties (the other part of my main argument) is also a secular argument as it doesn’t involve theology, but liberties.

Thus, your background points to some tragic happenings and I respect the insight your experience brings, but doesn’t really have any bearing on either of those two secular premises, so my point still stands.

So why can we not separate religious marriage and civil/secular marriage?

 

[social_aware]

All of the benefits of marriage are built on the premise that marriage brings forth kids and the tax benefits are a suppliment to the couple for the costs associated with that. Will some couples chose not to have kids? Sure, and we can work on a solution to that, but this small problem doesn’t justify turning the governmental benefits of marriage into benefits designed to reward a man or a woman for companionship.

Some gay couples raise children. Some adopt chidren nobody wants. In my town there is a lesbian couple that adopted 5 down syndrome babies, some that are racial minority.

 

[Awful_Things]

So why can we not separate religious marriage and civil/secular marriage?

Sigh. This is what I explained in an earlier post.

Civil/secular marriage was designed to support an institution that, through the creation and upbringing of children. Various court cases, such as Morrison v. Sadler demonstrate this.

Any benefits, such as tax breaks and social security benefits shared among spouses exist primarily to this end.

No doubt there is a flaw in the system in that some married couples chose not to have kids or are not able to. But a flaw does not justify tossing the baby out with the bath water, so to speak.

Children who are brought into the world and raised in a stable environment are a benefit to society, which is why the government has a vest interest in investing in them by supporting the institutionof marriage and providing incentives for its survival.

However, government is not and should not be in the business of legitimizing emotions and sexual attraction. If it were, then sure, one could make the argument that gays are discriminated against.

This is not a religious argument. It is a secular one.

Also, the first amendment will be violated by redefining marriage in such a way that the civil liberties of many religious and other private entities are threatened. This is one instance where the liberties of one group infringe upon the liberties of another without good cause (as legitimizing romance is not a good cause), which is where, as a border-line libertarian, I draw the line.

This is also a secular, not religious argument.

Notice that I am not making theological arguments here. I am making secular arguments about a secular institution.

If you read my posts, I am not in favor of making gay sex or cohabitation illegal. I’m not in favor of legislating morality (in general) unless the safety or liberties of another are threatened.

 

[Holly3278]

Try showing him quotes from the early Church fathers about homosexuality. This will prove to him that the early Church did not believe homosexuality was ok and should destroy his argument.

 

[Awful_Things]

All of the benefits of marriage are built on the premise that marriage brings forth kids and the tax benefits are a suppliment to the couple for the costs associated with that. Will some couples chose not to have kids? Sure, and we can work on a solution to that, but this small problem doesn’t justify turning the governmental benefits of marriage into benefits designed to reward a man or a woman for companionship.

Some gay couples raise children. Some adopt chidren nobody wants. In my town there is a lesbian couple that adopted 5 down syndrome babies, some that are racial minority.

Sure, but there is much research to support the idea that a home with a father and a mother is the optimal situation. That situations exist where kids are raised by gay couples does not negate that. The state has an interest in investing in the optimal situation.

 

[social_aware]

Try showing him quotes from the early Church fathers about homosexuality. This will prove to him that the early Church did not believe homosexuality was ok and should destroy his argument.

The new cathequism say homosexuality is not a sin.

 

[social_aware]

All of the benefits of marriage are built on the premise that marriage brings forth kids and the tax benefits are a suppliment to the couple for the costs associated with that. Will some couples chose not to have kids? Sure, and we can work on a solution to that, but this small problem doesn’t justify turning the governmental benefits of marriage into benefits designed to reward a man or a woman for companionship.

Some gay couples raise children. Some adopt chidren nobody wants. In my town there is a lesbian couple that adopted 5 down syndrome babies, some that are racial minority.

How would you protect that stay at home mom of 5 disable children should her partner die? no inharitance protection, no social security benefits?

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Example of Politicians trying to ‘force churches to perform gay weddings.’ In Sweden, the Left Party leader is trying to include a provision to force pastors to wed gay couples. All political parties in the Riksdag, with the exception of the Christian Democrats, have given their support to a legislative proposal which would allow for same-sex marriages. The current measure allows pastors or other officiates to refuse to perform wedding cermeonies for gay couples if they so choose. The Left Part wanted to go further than the current proposal and remove the exception for pastors who wish not to wed same-sex couples. “We weren’t able to get the others to go along with that and what’s most important now is to move forward with gender-neutral marriage,” said Ohly. “In the long run it’s inappropriate to be allow discrimination like this. We don’t think that someone should be allowed to refuse to wed same-sex couples.”

thelocal.se/15612/20081111/

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[social_aware]

`Thank you for keeping the conversation secular. I am not arguing that the church should change the view on the sin of the homosexual act. I am glad the church does not see homosexuality as a sin any longer because it is a compationate response to inate carachteristics.
Still, why not separete civil secular marriages and religious marriages.
I would be much more confortable in my faith if I could atract other by example not by imposition. That is how you atract the prodigue sons

 

[Awful_Things]

Still, why not separete civil secular marriages and religious marriages.

I’ve already answered this question. You asked it just a couple posts ago and I explained it.



You can’t keep asking the same question over and over again.

 

[Awful_Things]

How would you protect that stay at home mom of 5 disable children should her partner die? no inharitance protection, no social security benefits?

I don’t mind giving assistance to any single mother who is performing her role in a healthy manner.

 

[social_aware]

Example of Politicians trying to ‘force churches to perform gay weddings.’ In Sweden, the Left Party leader is trying to include a provision to force pastors to wed gay couples. All political parties in the Riksdag, with the exception of the Christian Democrats, have given their support to a legislative proposal which would allow for same-sex marriages. The current measure allows pastors or other officiates to refuse to perform wedding cermeonies for gay couples if they so choose. The Left Part wanted to go further than the current proposal and remove the exception for pastors who wish not to wed same-sex couples. “We weren’t able to get the others to go along with that and what’s most important now is to move forward with gender-neutral marriage,” said Ohly. “In the long run it’s inappropriate to be allow discrimination like this. We don’t think that someone should be allowed to refuse to wed same-sex couples.”

thelocal.se/15612/20081111/

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

another example of why we want separation of church and state. Because if not, when Christians are not majority any longer the lack of separation between church and state serves only to restrict our fredom of religion

 

[social_aware]

Is it homophobia? It is very interesting to observe how much emotion the issue of homosexuality brigs up. Homosexual act is a sin in the church but so is adultery. Divorce, which I personally see as much worse than homosexuality because it has more victims. The homosexual act is between adults should be their business it does not affect other. Divorce has the potential of leaving destitute women and children. Yet our reaction to divorce and adultery is less strong. We even separate civil marriage and religious marriage in the catholic church when it is heterosexual. I know of a divorced man who married a woman in the church because he was only married to the first wife in the court, so the second marriage could still happen because it would be the first marriage in the church

 

[Awful_Things]

Is it homophobia? It is very interesting to observe how much emotion the issue of homosexuality brigs up. Homosexual act is a sin in the church but so is adultery. Divorce, which I personally see as much worse than homosexuality because it has more victims. The homosexual act is between adults should be their business it does not affect other. Divorce has the potential of leaving destitute women and children. Yet our reaction to divorce and adultery is less strong. We even separate civil marriage and religious marriage in the catholic church when it is heterosexual. I know of a divorced man who married a woman in the church because he was only married to the first wife in the court, so the second marriage could still happen because it would be the first marriage in the church

Again, this is judgemental, social aware, despite your earlier insistance that you are not. Suddenly anyone who disagrees with you is a homophobe. You have responded to almost none of the arguments against your posts. Instead you resort to name-calling. We will never get anywhere without that kind of division.

The only one in this thread who has given concrete examples of an “emotional reaction” is you - the one wants to leave the sacraments because the Church upset you.

Plus, as much as I have been trying to keep this a secular argument, per your request, you are the one who suddenly turns it into a religious attack.

And, it is a red herring to say that the church is focused more on homosexuality than divorce and adultery. The reason that homosexuality is such a hot topic now is because there isn’t any current legislation that proses to legitimize divorce or adultery.

The church is simply responding to what society brings up. It isn’t the other way around. In fact, take a look through the different threads on homosexuality. The majority of them are started by people who side with you or by people who are responding to off-line interaction with people who side with you, and others have to step in to defend the church. Rarely if ever do you see a thread started on the subject of “Let’s all chat about how evil homosexuality is”.

It isn’t homophobia to respond to current issues and attacks.

But calling someone a homophobe certainly helps win arguments, doesn’t it?

Jump back a couple of years to the no-fault divorce debate and you will see the Church was much more focused on divorce than homosexuality.

It was dealing with a current event.

social aware, let’s keep this discussion civil instead of name-calling, judging, and using faulty-cause-and-effect. I originally though you could discuss these things with some level of mutual respect.

 

[social_aware]

Some gay couples raise children. Some adopt chidren nobody wants. In my town there is a lesbian couple that adopted 5 down syndrome babies, some that are racial minority.

How would you protect that stay at home mom of 5 disable children should her partner die? no inharitance protection, no social security benefits?

Ok let’s be specific how should we respond to this?

 

[Awful_Things]

How would you protect that stay at home mom of 5 disable children should her partner die? no inharitance protection, no social security benefits?

Ok let’s be specific how should we respond to this?

I already did respond and, for the second time, you are repeating a question as if there has been no answer.

Seriously, this is unreal.

Is this a hidden camera show? Am I on TV right now?

 

[social_aware]

Although the level of conversation was great in the beginning it detonated below a level I am willing to engage. Asking if there was a relationship between the negative feelings towards gay marriage is only offensive if it stroke a nerve of true we are unwilling to acknowledge. Forcing other people to follow our faith or be financially or legally disadvantaged if they don’t is an abuse of our majority status in this country. We will have only ourselves to blame when our religious freedom is taken away. We cannot be intolerant now and then complain later that people are intolerant towards us because we are the different ones now.
Sound like people justifying racism because there is reverse racism. After 100 years of slavery followed by another 100 of civil rights denied followed by a level of racism that did not allow interracial marriages in Alabama until November of 2000, why would those people be mad or suspicious. Enough already don’t you know it has being almost 50 years of civil rights (8 if you consider Alabama) should you not “get over it” already? It is very intolerant of us now to camplaint that they are being intolerant. It is much easier to say it is their falt now. They are the intolerant ones.

I am not homophobic I am just willing to deny the protection of the law to a group of people I don’t understand or don’t agree with or believe sinful. It does not matter that these people are having the same functioning society as parents, they live in sin, and although they don’t believe in the same things they need to abide by the same rules.
Is this country homophobic? Yes, Farwell (not a Catholic, we are better that that, Thanks be to God!) once said: The HIV virus was send by God to alleviate America from the evils of homosexuality. To agree with that means that a person who does not share your religious views deserves to die. How different is that from the believes of Osama Bin Laden? I find comfort in knowing the we Catholics do not share those views. Again, the new cathequism says homosexuality is not a sin, it only condemns the act. It is a reasonable question to ask ourselves: has the pollution of mainstream polluted my heart in this regard? My intention was not to be offensive but to offer an insight for reflex ion.
The same Jesus that asked me to not cast the first stone to spare a prostitute we would have no problems sending to prison today. Who explained to me why I should not judge, because it would be like the blind leading the blind, who are we to even think that even if we had many lives to dedicate to theology we could comprehend why God does what God does. Perhaps He create people with great diversity, race, sexual orientation, same health, some mentally disabled to verify our compassion. Is homosexuality a sin, probably, but I believe He will come to judge the living and the dead, and I believe He is more qualified to do so. I know that all this different people, black, white, gay, strait, sick and health are my brothers and sisters. When judgment day comes and God asks me: I made you perfect and whole, how did you use it to help my sons and daughters? Did you do upon other as you would wish it done on you? Did you forgive the trespasses of others? I will say I try to defend my brothers and sisters.
If I was that gay woman mother of 5 disabled children I would not want to lose my house, or to live without my spouse social security. So I will not use the bible to cause that to happen to her either. She may be sinful, not my call.
While on earth I will defend gay rights, work with prostitutes, and anyone who needs me. I lost count of how many pancake breakfasts I cooked for fundraising. My parish in Brazil was involved with a home for young prostitutes. They were 12 to 17 years old and the majority was HIV positive. We could have send them to jail, prostitution is illegal in Brazil. By loving them we saved some. Not all, some died, some went back to a life of prostitution, I pray they will come back. Some fell out of the wagon, we received them back, they changed their ways. I don’t think we would have saved any of those girls had we send them to juvenal hall.
On judgement day hope to be able to say: Sir I tryied.

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Is homosexuality a sin, probably, but I believe He will come to judge the living and the dead, and I believe He is more qualified to do so. I know that all this different people, black, white, gay, strait, sick and health are my brothers and sisters. When judgment day comes and God asks me: I made you perfect and whole, how did you use it to help my sons and daughters? Did you do upon other as you would wish it done on you? Did you forgive the trespasses of others? I will say I try to defend my brothers and sisters.
If I was that gay woman mother of 5 disabled children I would not want to lose my house, or to live without my spouse social security. So I will not use the bible to cause that to happen to her either. She may be sinful, not my call.
While on earth I will defend gay rights, work with prostitutes, and anyone who needs me. I lost count of how many pancake breakfasts I cooked for fundraising. My parish in Brazil was involved with a home for young prostitutes. They were 12 to 17 years old and the majority was HIV positive. We could have send them to jail, prostitution is illegal in Brazil. By loving them we saved some. Not all, some died, some went back to a life of prostitution, I pray they will come back. Some fell out of the wagon, we received them back, they changed their ways. I don’t think we would have saved any of those girls had we send them to juvenal hall.
On judgement day hope to be able to say: Sir I tryied.

Aren’t you going to help people stay out of hell? Defend gay rights is an ambiguous term. Defend their right to be loved, appreciated, valued, and protected from violence is one thing. Defend gay marriage is defending their right to go to Hell, in which case you become their worst enemy. Didn’t you hear the ex-gays who protested the American Psychiatric Association saying, “Don’t affirm Me into a lifestyle that was killing me spiritually and emotionally!” It’s like defending abortion. Defend the unwed mother’s right to be loved, appreciated, valued, protected from violence, and even helping her to raise her children - wonderful! Defend her right to murder her child and you are helping her send her own soul to hell. And we know it is a grave sin because the Bible as well as Jewish custom tells us so. Unless you don’t believe in Hell and that it really exists, if so you should read the Diaries of St. Teresa of Avila. She was shown the place in hell that the devil had prepared for her for her sins during her youth: catholicfirst.com/TheFaith/CatholicClassics/StTeresa/life/teresaofavila.cfm or Diary of St. Maria Faustina: Divine Mercy in My Soul who was shown Hell so that she could warn others or the three little children of Fatima, who predicted a sign that was reported by the New York Times, Chicago Daily Tribune, Los Angeles Times (I can post if you need to see the evidence) and who also saw Hell. It is not ignorant supersition to believe in Hell and to believe that certain mortal sins can drive you there without repentance. What kind of friend stands by while their other friends run to Hell for eternity?

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Imaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *