Response to Rev. 12

[Mannyfit75]

How is it justified then, that Rev. 12 is taken out of the context of the book of Revelation… and interpreted “literally” to describe Mary and her physical son Jesus.

It is not taken out of Context. To prove my case, early Christians believe that the woman in Book of Revelations is Mary.

[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course that was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied, “Be it done unto me according to your word” (Luke 1:38) (Dialogue with Trypho 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, “Behold, 0 Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.” Eve . . . who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband — for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children . . . having become disobedient [sin], was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

Origen

This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one (Homily 1 [A.D. 244]).

Hippolytus

He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 ante [A.D. 235]).

Ephraim the Syrian

You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is neither blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these? (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A. D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

Gregory Nazianzen

He was conceived by the virgin, who had been first purified by the Spirit in soul and body; for, as it was fitting that childbearing should receive its share of honor, so it was necessary that virginity should receive even greater honor (Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390]).

Augustine

We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Theodotus of Ancrya

A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns (Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446]).

Proclus of Constantinople

As He formed her without any stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain (Homily 1[ante A.D. 446]).

((Continue))

If that is the case, any other portion of Revelation can also be interpreted literally… in which case, preterism and subsequently, post-millennialism can be refuted quite easily.

BA

 

[Mannyfit75]

Fr. William P. Saunders:

Last Sunday [the Solemnity of the Assumption] we had a reading from the Book of Revelation that mentioned a lady clothed with the sun, a child and a dragon. Does the lady refer to the Blessed Mother? A Protestant friend in my Bible study said it did not. — A reader in Sterling

First, let’s refresh our memories with the passage from the Book of Revelation (11:19 - 12:6): “Then God’s temple in heaven opened and in the temple could be seen the Ark of the Covenant. There were flashes of lightning and peals of thunder, an earthquake and a violent hailstorm. A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Because she was with child, she wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. Then another sign appeared in the sky: it was a huge dragon, flaming red, with seven heads and ten horns; on his heads were seven diadems. His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, ready to devour her child when it should be born. She gave birth to a son — a boy destined to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and to his throne. The woman herself fled into the desert, where a special place had been prepared for her by God; there she was taken care of for 1260 days.”

Since the time of the early Church fathers, this image of “the woman clothed with the sun” has had a threefold symbolism: the ancient people of Israel, the Church and the Blessed Mother. Regarding the ancient people of Israel, Isaiah described Israel as follows: “As a woman about to give birth writhes and cries out in her pains, so were we in your presence, O Lord” (Is 26:17). Of course, one must remember too that it is from the ancient people of Israel that both Mary and the Messiah came.

The “woman clothed with the sun” may also represent the Church. Later in verse 17, we read, “Enraged at her escape, the dragon went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep God’s commandments and give witness to Jesus.” The “offspring” being the baptized children of God, the members of the Church. Pope St. Gregory posited, “The sun stands for the light of truth, and the moon for the transitoriness of temporal things; the holy Church is clothed like the sun because she is protected by the splendor of supernatural truth, and she has the moon under her feet because she is above all earthly things” (Moralia, 34, 12).

Finally, the woman can be identified with the Blessed Virgin Mary. Mary gave birth to our Savior, Jesus Christ. St. Bernard commented, “The sun contains permanent color and splendor; whereas the moon’s brightness is unpredictable and changeable, for it never stays the same. It is quite right, then, for Mary to be depicted as clothed with the sun, for she entered the profundity of divine wisdom much, much further than one can possibly conceive” (De B. Virgine, 2).

In identifying the image of “the woman clothed with the sun” as our Blessed Mother Mary, the fullness of the imagery of the ancient people of Israel and the Church emerges. Consider the ancient people of Israel. When the Archangel Gabriel appeared to Mary, he declared (as translated in the New American Bible, 1968), “Rejoice, O highly favored daughter! The Lord is with you. Blessed are among women” (Lk 1:28). Then continuing, he said, “Do not fear, Mary. You have found favor with God. You shall conceive and bear a son and give him the name Jesus. Great will be His dignity and He will be called Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give Him the throne of David His father. He will rule over the house of Jacob forever and His reign will be without end” (Lk 1:30-33). These statements reflect the prophecy of Zephaniah regarding the ancient people of Israel and the coming of the Messiah: “Shout for joy, O daughter Zion! Sing joyfully, O Israel! Be glad and exult with all your heart, O daughter Jerusalem! The Lord has removed the judgment against you, He has turned away your enemies. The King of Israel, the Lord is in your midst, you have no further misfortune to fear. On that day, it shall be said to Jerusalem: ‘Fear not, O Zion, be not discouraged!’” (Zep 3:14-16). Therefore, Mary, the mother of the Messiah, as the “woman clothed with the sun” represents the fulfillment of the prophecy given to the people Israel.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Fr. William P. Saunders:

Last week, we began our investigation of the image of “the woman clothed with the sun” as described in the Book of Revelation (11:19 - 12:6). Since the time of the early Church Fathers, this image of the woman has had a three-fold symbolism: the ancient people of Israel, the Church and the Blessed Mother. However, as we learned last week, the fullness of the image is the Blessed Mother, for she fulfills the prophecies regarding the coming of the Messiah, and she is the Mother of the Church.

There are other important reasons for identifying “the woman clothed with the sun” as our Blessed Mother. The passage in question began with a revelation of heaven, the temple, and the Ark of the Covenant. Remember in the Old Testament the ark housed the Ten Commandments, the Law of God and God’s Word. The ark also contained the priestly staff of Aaron and a golden jar containing an omerful of manna (Ex 16:32, Nm 17:25, Heb 9:14). As the Israelites journeyed to the Promised Land, a cloud, signifying the presence of God, would descend upon or “overshadow” the tent where the ark was kept. Later in the Temple of Jerusalem, the ark was kept in the Holy of Holies, the inner core of the Temple where the Jewish people believed God dwelt.

After the description of heaven, the temple and the ark, the next verse describes “the woman clothed with the sun.” Mary is the mother of Jesus, whom she conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit. As Archangel Gabriel announced, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; hence, the holy offspring to be born will be called Son of God” (Lk 1:35). The connection between Mary and the Temple, the Holy of Holies and the ark is clear.

Keep in mind also that when St. John saw this vision, the ark had been lost for over 500 years. The prophet Jeremiah had hidden the ark to prevent its capture and desecration by the Babylonians, and declared, “The place is to remain unknown until God gathers His people together again and shows them His mercy” (2 Mc 2:7). In this vision, St. John saw the ark and then he saw Mary. Mary carried in her womb our Lord, who is the Word of God, the true High Priest and the Bread of Life. Truly, Mary is the new Ark of the New Covenant, which our Lord as priest will make with His Blood spilled in the sacrifice of the cross.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If this “woman clothed with the sun” refers to our Blessed Mother, how then do the birth pangs mentioned in Revelation fit? Since she was free of Original Sin through her Immaculate Conception, Mary was free of child bearing pains. The pain, therefore, must refer to the pain she shared when she stood at the foot of the cross (Jn 19:25), a pain prophesied by the Priest Simeon at the circumcision: “This child is destined to be the downfall and the rise of many in Israel, a sign that will be opposed — and you yourself shall by pierced with a sword — so that the thoughts of many hearts may be laid bare” (Lk 2:34-35). Interestingly, St. Paul also speaks of “labor pains” in handing the faith unto his people: “You are my children, and you put me back in labor pains until Christ is formed in you” (Gal 4:19). So the pain takes on a spiritual significance, that pain in sharing in the sufferings of Christ, and that pain in being the Mother of the Church and bringing others to her Son.

Mary’s description as “the woman clothed with the sun” also depicts her glory fulfilled in her Assumption. Pope Pius XII in “Munifentissimus Deus,” the declaration of the dogma of the Assumption, recognized that the early Church fathers looked to “the woman clothed with the sun” when providing the New Testament foundation for the belief (No. 27). Note that is why the passage in question is read at the Mass for the Solemnity of the Assumption. Moreover, the Second Vatican Council in its “Dogmatic Constitution on the Church” (“Lumen Gentium”) taught, “Finally, the Immaculate Virgin preserved free from all stain of Original Sin, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, when her earthly life was over, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords (cf. Rv 19:16) and conqueror of sin and death” (No. 59). Note that in making this statement, the Second Vatican Council referenced the passage from Revelation in question.

 

[Mannyfit75]

One last point to consider: Pondering our entire exposition of this topic, we can step back and see how our Blessed Mother — her role and her imagery in this passage of Revelation — fulfills the Old Testament. For this reason, the early Church fathers identified Mary as “the New Eve.” In the third chapter of Genesis, the first Eve succumbed to the temptation of wanting to be like a god, disobeyed God’s command and sinned. In contrast, Mary is full of grace, free of all sin. At the Annunciation, she said to Archangel Gabriel, “I am the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done according to thy word,” submitting fully to the will of God (Lk 2:38).

Through the first Eve came death and the closing of the gates of heaven; through Mary came everlasting life won by the saving work of Jesus. While the first Eve is called “the mother of all of the living,” Mary is truly the Mother of all of those living spiritually in the life of grace.

Finally, after the Fall, God said to the serpent, Satan, "I with put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers … " (Gen 3:15). In Revelation, we find Satan represented by a dragon. The Hebrew word nahash used in Genesis means both serpent and dragon. Also, the enmity between Mary and Satan, between her offspring and Satan’s is found in Revelation. The New Eve typology was presented early in the Church by St. Justin Martyr, St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Tertullian, St. Augustine, St. John Damascene, just to name a few, and was also highlighted in Vatican Council II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, Chapter VIII, entitled, “Our Lady.”

Therefore, “the woman clothed with the sun,” as depicted in the Book of Revelation, is clearly a beautiful reference to the role of our Blessed Mother in the plan of salvation.

 

[Mannyfit75]

bibleapologist:

How is it justified then, that Rev. 12 is taken out of the context of the book of Revelation… and interpreted “literally” to describe Mary and her physical son Jesus.

If that is the case, any other portion of Revelation can also be interpreted literally… in which case, preterism and subsequently, post-millennialism can be refuted quite easily.

BA

Like I said before it isn’t taken out of context. We Catholics can interpret the woman in Revelation as the Church, Israel, and Mary. Neither of those interpretation is incorrect.

We interpret Scripture as a whole. Let put put this out.

In the OT, God promise a messiah started in Genesis 3:15, that passage speaks of a woman and the serpeant. The seed of the woman will crush the serpeant’s. This speaks of Mary and Jesus, the (seed), and the serpeant we know is Satan.

Let us fast forward. God promise a Messiah and this messiah will inherit a kingdom from the line of David. Jesus is this Messiah. If you read Luke, Gabriel said that “God will give him (the child) the throne of his father David and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever.”

In the OT, Jewish Kings have mothers as their Queen.

Read 1 Kings 2:17, 20, 1 Kings 2:18, 1 Kings 2:19, 1 Kings 15:13, 2 Chron. 22:10, Neh. 2:6.

Since Jesus inherited the kingdom, he continues this new dynasty that will not end. Further down in Revelation 12, there is a woman clothed with the sun with a crown on her head, and she appear in the heaven. This is Mary and we know queen have crown.

Catholic view is that Jesus’ own kingship is the only reason why he made his mother his Queen. He did not overthrown the Monarchy of ancient Israel, but fulfilled it.