Response to the new English translation

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We wouldn’t expect anything less. It’s only been going on for over 400 years. And how many English revisions of the Bible have we had? Everytime a word changes meaning (a good example: “gay”) a new Bible must be written. 😃
Maybe it would be easier and less expensive in the long run to just teach Catholics Latin?! I’m only half joking here–think of the other educational benefits that would accrue. That way the bishops could sit in on a few classes… 🙂

Jews teach their kids Hebrew (or at least make a valiant attempt at it)–why not?
 
Maybe it would be easier and less expensive in the long run to just teach Catholics Latin?! I’m only half joking here–think of the other educational benefits that would accrue. That way the bishops could sit in on a few classes… 🙂

Jews teach their kids Hebrew (or at least make a valiant attempt at it)–why not?
Not to worry. The universities are teaching Latin again. (It was a popular class when I took it at the University of Illinois. Still have my Cornelius Nepos book.)

users.ipa.net/~tanker/universa.htm

users.ipa.net/~tanker/universb.htm

users.ipa.net/~tanker/universc.htm
 
Exactly–as a non-Catholic this truly confuses me, so maybe someone here can help me out…

Since the bishops are going to all this work and expense, why not at least correct the most obvious errors?
But those are not errors if they accurately represent the sense that is meant. Consider for instance the Italian
Mi chiamo Marco.
A literal translation would be:
  1. My name is Mark.
    But a stupidly literal translation would be:
  2. I call myself Mark.
    And a translation perhaps in the pseudo-dynamic spirit of the 1970 ICEL text might be:
  3. You can call me Mark.
    Notice that (1) and (2) are both completely grammatical, intelligible English sentences, and yet even a “literal” translator would never pick the latter over the former, except in an unusual circumstance like trying to illustrate how Italian grammar can vary from English. The same applies to Latin “Mihi nomen est Marcus.” Imagine complaining that the translation ought to be “The name to me is Mark” – maybe even snidely commenting, Haha, you must have flunked Latin if you somehow get “my” out of “mihi,” LOL!!
No, the right (“literal”) translation is “My name is.” There really can be no debate about it, even though the Latin theoretically could have expressed “My name is” (“Nomen meum est,” but this would be bizarre), and even though

So are we really so sure that “The Lord with you” is in this sense the right (“literal”) translation of “Dominus vobiscum”? “The Lord with you” is a strange non-sentence; it that what the Latin really says? As of 1815 people thought the right translation was –

http://books.google.com/books?id=E3...0aOvudhxsnSrQ8YyJ7w&ci=70,1308,915,219&edge=0

not to mention the “Lift up your hearts”:

http://books.google.com/books?id=E3...HftFjs5bP12m2A7rQMg&ci=77,1226,859,146&edge=0

– I guess ICEL was running amok with their non-literal translations back then too, eh?
 
But those are not errors if they accurately represent the sense that is meant. Consider for instance the Italian
Mi chiamo Marco.
A literal translation would be:
  1. My name is Mark.
    But a stupidly literal translation would be:
  2. I call myself Mark.
    And a translation perhaps in the pseudo-dynamic spirit of the 1970 ICEL text might be:
  3. You can call me Mark.
    Notice that (1) and (2) are both completely grammatical, intelligible English sentences, and yet even a “literal” translator would never pick the latter over the former, except in an unusual circumstance like trying to illustrate how Italian grammar can vary from English. The same applies to Latin “Mihi nomen est Marcus.” Imagine complaining that the translation ought to be “The name to me is Mark” – maybe even snidely commenting, Haha, you must have flunked Latin if you somehow get “my” out of “mihi,” LOL!!
No, the right (“literal”) translation is “My name is.” There really can be no debate about it, even though the Latin theoretically could have expressed “My name is” (“Nomen meum est,” but this would be bizarre), and even though

So are we really so sure that “The Lord with you” is in this sense the right (“literal”) translation of “Dominus vobiscum”? “The Lord with you” is a strange non-sentence; it that what the Latin really says? As of 1815 people thought the right translation was –

http://books.google.com/books?id=E3...0aOvudhxsnSrQ8YyJ7w&ci=70,1308,915,219&edge=0

not to mention the “Lift up your hearts”:

http://books.google.com/books?id=E3...HftFjs5bP12m2A7rQMg&ci=77,1226,859,146&edge=0

– I guess ICEL was running amok with their non-literal translations back then too, eh?
I guess this is what ProVobis meant by “ingrained”!

As ProVobis points out several posts above, the Latin text says “The Lord is with you.” (It’s not a non-sentence at all–it’s a nominal sentence, perfectly acceptable in Latin, as in Greek and Hebrew, for that matter.) If the Latin text wanted to say “The Lord BE with you” there’s a perfectly good way of doing it with the subjunctive–and “Dominus vobiscum” doesn’t do that. (That’s why I posted the comparable Latin text for the English “The peace of the Lord be always with you.”)

To me there is a pretty big difference between the declarative sentence and the wish or entreaty inferred through the use of the subjunctive. I guess one could just say that the whole thing just doesn’t matter–but then why bother with the project to begin with?–That’s my basic question, really.
 
I’ve been looking at these for a while. What I still see though are ICEL interpretations and changes in the text, although not as glaring as we had before.

2010 first line and 2008 second line

For when your children were scattered afar by sin,
For, when sin had scattered your children afar,

through the Blood of your Son and the power of the Spirit,
through the Blood of your Son and the power of the Spirit,

you gathered them again to yourself,
you chose to gather them again to yourself

that a people, formed as one by the unity of the Trinity,
so that a people made one from the unity of the Trinity

made the body of Christ and the temple of the Holy Spirit,
the Body of Christ and the Temple of the Spirit,

might, to the praise of your manifold wisdom,
to the praise of your manifold wisdom.

be manifest as the Church
might be revealed as your Church,

There are differences. Saying that the people are “revealed as” the Church is different than to “be manifest as” the Church. The difference is that if they are “revealed” then they have to be that way to begin-with, and they are later “revealed”, but to be “manifest as” means to be formed-into. The time is different.

The 08 version doesn’t talk about being “made into” the Body of Christ, but instead being revealed as such. In other words, Christ doesn’t make us the Body of Christ, He only reveals what we already are. Problem with that? Well, yes.

Also “you gathered them” is different from “you chose to gather them” Is the verb “choose” there in the Latin? I don’t know, but if it isn’t it’s something the 2008 translators added. Perhaps the 2010 translation neglected to do so? Less likely.

Let’s look at the first line.
For, when sin had scattered your children afar, (08). That’s too passive. The subject of that sentence is “sin”

For when your children were scattered afar by sin, (10). The subject of that sentence is “children” (albeit still passive voice).

Not much difference, but when we compare the 2 sentences, the 08 version puts more emphasis on the act done by sin, rather than on the people who sin. The 10 version is the better one.

The more I look at these translations, the more I appreciate the new versions.

Just for reference, here’s the current version

When Your children sinned and wandered far from Your friendship,
You reunited them with Yourself through the blood of Your Son
and the power of the Holy SPirit.
You gather them into Your church,
to be one as You, Father,
are one with Your Son and the Holy Spirit.
You call them to be Your people,
to praise Your wisdom in all Your works.
You make them the body of Christ
and the dwelling-place of the Holy Spirit.
I wish there was a high-five smiley! 👍

It just seems to me that the folks who are “sounding the alarm” about this whole thing have forgotten that Archbishop DiNoa is the Secretary to the CDWDS and, he is an American. Furthermore, prior to the change in leadership, another English-speaker held that post, now-His Eminence, Malcolm Cardinal Ranjinth. Somehow, I have a hard time believing that between Archbishop DiNoa, Cardinal Ranjinth (who is now a member of the Congregation) and George Cardinal Pell (the chair of Vox Clara) there was a plot to commit some sort of sabotage.
 
If the Latin text wanted to say “The Lord BE with you” there’s a perfectly good way of doing it with the subjunctive–and “Dominus vobiscum” doesn’t do that. (That’s why I posted the comparable Latin text for the English “The peace of the Lord be always with you.”)
And if it had wanted to express a simple present, there’s a perfectly good way of doing that, too; “Dominus vobiscum est.”

Consider how often in English we use verbless constructions intended with a subjunctive sense: “Good morning!” “Happy trails!” “Many happy returns!” “Merry Christmas!” I find it very easy to believe that “Dominus vobiscum” is intended, and understood, in the same fashion in Latin. And, as far as I can tell, that’s the universal view of translators, over several centuries. I’m curious – are the defenders of the simple-present rendering aware of any reliable source that would support such a reading, or are they just working off of their own knowledge of Latin, such as it may be?
 
And if it had wanted to express a simple present, there’s a perfectly good way of doing that, too; “Dominus vobiscum est.”

Consider how often in English we use verbless constructions intended with a subjunctive sense: “Good morning!” “Happy trails!” “Many happy returns!” “Merry Christmas!” I find it very easy to believe that “Dominus vobiscum” is intended, and understood, in the same fashion in Latin. And, as far as I can tell, that’s the universal view of translators, over several centuries. I’m curious – are the defenders of the simple-present rendering aware of any reliable source that would support such a reading, or are they just working off of their own knowledge of Latin, such as it may be?
Since I’m not Catholic, I have no idea if there are “defenders”; I’m just reading the text. As for reliable sources, I’d suggest consulting any Latin grammar under the heading “coupla” or “nominal sentence.”

The English illustrations you list aren’t copulative constructions (X is Y), so they aren’t really the same thing; the equivalent construction doesn’t exist in English.

If you want to prove your point against the plain grammatical meaning, you’d need to find a similar copulative construction in Latin where the subjunctive is clearly the intended meaning (and I can’t recall ever seeing one–but I’m certainly open to learning), plus you’d probably need a reasonable explanation as to why the subjunctive is used in “Pax Domini…” and not here.
 
I noticed that Fr. Ruff posted his letter on the Pray Tell blog but, interestingly enough, he seems to not be allowing any commentaries on this issue.
Rita Ferrone is now the acting editor of Pray Tell, and at the end of the post, she says:
Anyone who wishes to discuss the letter should do so at America magazine’s site. In this way, the whole discussion will happen in one place, and America’s graciousness in publishing the letter will be acknowledged.
Since only two excerpts were posted at Pray Tell, and whole letter is at America Magazine, the preference is for comments to be made at America’s web site. That seems logical to me.
 
Since I’m not Catholic, I have no idea if there are “defenders”; I’m just reading the text. As for reliable sources, I’d suggest consulting any Latin grammar under the heading “coupla” or “nominal sentence.”

The English illustrations you list aren’t copulative constructions (X is Y), so they aren’t really the same thing; the equivalent construction doesn’t exist in English.

If you want to prove your point against the plain grammatical meaning, you’d need to find a similar copulative construction in Latin where the subjunctive is clearly the intended meaning (and I can’t recall ever seeing one–but I’m certainly open to learning), plus you’d probably need a reasonable explanation as to why the subjunctive is used in “Pax Domini…” and not here.
As I mentioned before, these types of constructions were formed by Cranmer around 1545AD according to my research on this. And he seems to be inconsistent and/or doing some guessing. “Adjutorium nostrum in nomine Domine” becomes “Our help IS in the name of the Lord” not “May our help be in the name of the Lord.”

If Cranmer had any defenders he certainly didn’t find them at the doctrinal Council of Trent who responded to him and others by making this pronouncement:
Canon IX.—Si quis dixerit, Ecclesiæ Romanæ ritum, quo submissa voce pars canonis et verba consecrationis proferuntur, damnandum esse; aut lingua tantum vulgari missam celebrari debere; aut aquam non miscendam esse vino in calice offerendo, eo quod sit contra Christi institutionem: anathema sit.
CANON IX.–If any one saith, that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or, that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vulgar tongue only; or, that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice, for that it is contrary to the institution of Christ; let him be anathema.
As I stated before Cranmer was later burned at the stake for being a heretic. Yet even the old Latin-English missals contained his guesswork formulas (although the priest was never permitted to use them) and passed them down to us.
 
:doh2: :banghead:
From Vatican Council I, Session 4 H.H. Pope Pius IX
  1. In order, then, that
    the episcopal office should be one and undivided and that,
    by the union of the clergy,
    the whole multitude of believers should be held together in the unity of
    faith and
    communion,
    he set blessed Peter over the rest of the apostles and
    instituted in him the permanent principle of both unities and
    their visible foundation.
  2. Upon the strength of this foundation was to be built the eternal temple, and the church whose topmost part reaches heaven was to rise upon the firmness of this foundation [41] .
  3. And since the gates of hell trying, if they can, to overthrow the church, make their assault with a hatred that increases day by day against its divinely laid foundation,
    we judge it necessary,
    with the approbation of the sacred council, and
    for the protection, defence and growth of the catholic flock,
    to propound the doctrine concerning the
    institution,
    permanence and
    nature
    of the sacred and apostolic primacy,
    upon which the strength and coherence of the whole church depends.
  4. This doctrine is to be believed and held by all the faithful in accordance with the ancient and unchanging faith of the whole church.
  5. Furthermore, we shall proscribe and condemn the contrary errors which are so harmful to the Lord’s flock
Chapter 1

2.So, then,
if anyone says that
the Roman pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and
not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole church, and this
not only in matters of
faith and morals, but also in those which concern the
discipline and government of the church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that
he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that
this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful:
let him be anathema.
  1. Furthermore, it follows from that supreme power which the Roman pontiff has in governing the whole church, that he has the right, in the performance of this office of his, to communicate freely with the pastors and flocks of the entire church, so that they may be taught and guided by him in the way of salvation
  2. But since in this very age when the salutary effectiveness of the apostolic office is most especially needed, not a few are to be found who disparage its authority, we judge it absolutely necessary to affirm solemnly the prerogative which the only-begotten Son of God was pleased to attach to the supreme pastoral office.
  3. Therefore,
    faithfully adhering to the tradition received from the beginning of the christian faith,
    to the glory of God our saviour,
    for the exaltation of the catholic religion and
    for the salvation of the christian people,
    with the approval of the sacred council,
    we teach and define as a divinely revealed dogma that
    when the Roman pontiff speaks EX CATHEDRA,
    that is, when,
    in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
    in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
    he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,
    he possesses,
    by the divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter,
    that infallibility which the divine Redeemer willed his church to enjoy in defining doctrine concerning faith or morals.
    Therefore, such definitions of the Roman pontiff are of themselves, and not by the consent of the church, irreformable.
    So then, should anyone, which God forbid, have the temerity to reject this definition of ours: let him be anathema.
The Church is not a democracy. Do not equate western government philosophy against the Church as instituted by Jesus Christ.

Vatican Council I, Session III
4. While we recall with grateful hearts, as is only fitting, these and other outstanding gains, which the divine mercy has bestowed on the church especially by means of the last ecumenical synod, we cannot subdue the bitter grief that we feel at most serious evils, which have largely arisen either because
the authority of the sacred synod was held in contempt by all too many, or because
its wise decrees were neglected.
  1. Everybody knows that those heresies, condemned by the fathers of Trent, which rejected the divine magisterium of the church and allowed religious questions to be a matter for the judgment of each individual, have gradually collapsed into a multiplicity of sects, either at variance or in agreement with one another; and by this means a good many people have had all faith in Christ destroyed.
 
From Vatican Council I, Session 4…
I’ve read that before, yes, thank you.
The Church is not a democracy. Do not equate western government philosophy against the Church as instituted by Jesus Christ.
I don’t.

What I find funny is that people will say “why don’t we just do it in Latin” or “why don’t we just do it this way” or “that way”. Those people are offering their opinions or preferences on how the translation should or should not be done, and I bet they would love to have their advice at least heard and acknowledged. Why not extend the courtesy to priests?
 
As I mentioned before, these types of constructions were formed by Cranmer around 1545AD according to my research on this. And he seems to be inconsistent and/or doing some guessing. “Adjutorium nostrum in nomine Domine” becomes “Our help IS in the name of the Lord” not “May our help be in the name of the Lord.”

If Cranmer had any defenders he certainly didn’t find them at the doctrinal Council of Trent who responded to him and others by making this pronouncement:

As I stated before Cranmer was later burned at the stake for being a heretic. Yet even the old Latin-English missals contained his guesswork formulas (although the priest was never permitted to use them) and passed them down to us.
Errors often have interesting histories!
 
What I find funny is that people will say “why don’t we just do it in Latin” or “why don’t we just do it this way” or “that way”.
Japhy, you yourself seemed to be most supportive of that idea under a different thread. Why the turnabout?

Look at it this way. Take π, for example. It’s a mathematical truth very few outside of mathematicians and scientists really understand. But if someone asks them what it is, they “translate” that meaning to be 3.14 for him so he understands it better. Fine, he’s good with it. But what we’re arguing here is basically whether 3.14159 might be better as an understanding but does it really? And what’s the point because chances are even if he designs a perfect rocket, he’s going to miss the moon anyway, given his level of understanding of π.

The Church has promulgated two forms of Mass in Latin. It seems as if after 400 years, we should have learned nothing beats understanding it in that language. If we don’t want to understand it in that language, then we probably won’t ever understand it fully.
 
What I find funny is that people will say “why don’t we just do it in Latin” or “why don’t we just do it this way” or “that way”. Those people are offering their opinions or preferences on how the translation should or should not be done, and I bet they would love to have their advice at least heard and acknowledged. Why not extend the courtesy to priests?
From my perspective, I’m not at all offended that no one ever asked for my (name removed by moderator)ut. Seriously, I’m not. Sure, there are times when I say to myself, or say to someone else, “I’d like to see it this way…” But then reality sinks in.

I remember things like diocese-wide meetings of priests, and I think of all the “(name removed by moderator)ut” everybody wants to have on something like a diocese program. These things can drag on forever while we have to sit there and listen to someone describe a wedding 15 years ago, at length, when the topic is something like priest automobile insurance. And it’s not just priests either, it happens in all segments of our society: “whenever two or more of you are gathered, people will ramble on forever about minutia.” (I can’t remember where, but it’s somewhere in one of the Gospels).

Seriously, from a practical perspective, how would something like that happen? Should the Vatican open a special Vatican PO Box and say “anyone who has something to say, drop us a letter” (or I suppose a special email address nowadays). The Church has over a billion people. It just isn’t possible to allow everyone to have some (name removed by moderator)ut into something. Even if we narrow it down to just English-speaking (since translation is the topic after all), or even English-speaking priests, the logistics alone of sorting through all the comments would be mind-boggling.

Over the years, I’ve occasionally made “suggestions” about liturgical matters to my bishops. They have always at least listened, and a few times, taken the idea to the next level (after all, if the idea itself is a good one, others will also make the same suggestions).

The current Sacramentary is 1,100+ pages. Just try to imagine all the comments that would flow in. “offertory prayer for 8th Sunday of Ordinary Time, change the word offerings to the word gifts…” Seriously, how many such comments would be received if the process were open to every priest offering (name removed by moderator)ut? Who would sort those comments, who would decide what’s worthy of consideration? We all know the answer, and that is “the bishops.” Well, guess what, we already have such a process in place. The draft copies of these prayers have been available for years. Any priest who had a serious and legitimate suggestion already did have the opportunity to take that suggestion to his own bishop–and I venture to guess that many did in fact do that.

Even in our democratic society, we don’t craft our laws that way. We tell our legislators “what” we want, and we leave it to them to find the right words. If we opened up our legislative process to allow everyone to have (name removed by moderator)ut on the exact words of every law, our governments would never get anything accomplished.

Let’s all keep in mind that we’re talking about a process of translating here. Not a process of composing new texts. While translating is not an exact science, if the translators themselves stick to the principles outlined by Rome, there won’t be too much variation from one to the next, and what little variation does exist will come down to a matter of personal preference; things like “I think it sounds better to say it this way when it’s spoken aloud”

The actual words being translated don’t vary all that much. When one simply thinks about it, our Mass texts have a rather limited vocabulary. That’s why I can say Mass in Spanish even though I don’t know the language–precisely because the vocabulary is so limited that a priest says the same words over and over again from one week to the next, with very little in the way of changes. This is not at all like translating a novel from Russian or German into English. We’re dealing with a limited number of Latin words, and we already have English equivalents for them. In other words, it’s not as if we have to translate cultural ideas or nuances that might exist in one language but not another.

The bottom line is that we don’t really need (name removed by moderator)ut from a lot of people. What we do need are translators whom we can trust to faithfully translate the texts from Latin into English, without giving any thoughts as to how they can change or alter the Latin into something else in English. If only we had that from the very beginning, we wouldn’t be in this mess in the first place.
 
Japhy, you yourself seemed to be most supportive of that idea under a different thread. Why the turnabout?
I’m not opposed to Mass in Latin, nor Mass in the vernacular. My point is that people want their voices heard on the translation matter, but then say “why should the priests have a say?” and condemn any sort of consultation as “western democracy” and totally abhorrent to the Holy Catholic Church founded by our Lord Jesus Christ!
 
I’m not opposed to Mass in Latin, nor Mass in the vernacular. My point is that people want their voices heard on the translation matter, but then say “why should the priests have a say?” and condemn any sort of consultation as “western democracy” and totally abhorrent to the Holy Catholic Church founded by our Lord Jesus Christ!
Jesus Christ trusted St Peter and his successor with decisive power. Only the bishops had to consent with him (and vice versa he with the college of bishops). Priests as members of lower clergy, even theologians have no voice on their own.

The Roman emperor was first consul and tribune in one person, but ruled in the name of the senate and the people of Rome.

The pope rules in the name of Jesus Christ.

The reason why the Apostolic See did not asked the people in this question is that the media is in hands of non Catholic neither Christian powers, and without proper flow of information there is no free decision. Jesus Christ set the structure of the Church in times similar to hours, and he know what he had done.
 
I’m not opposed to Mass in Latin, nor Mass in the vernacular. My point is that people want their voices heard on the translation matter, but then say “why should the priests have a say?” and condemn any sort of consultation as “western democracy” and totally abhorrent to the Holy Catholic Church founded by our Lord Jesus Christ!
I cannot speak for anyone but myself, so here is my take: Regardless of how I feel about any changes that come from Rome, I accept them as promulgated. Am I personally happy with what has happened to the Church in the last forty years? NO. Do I still hold to all of Sacred Tradition and the Tenants of our faith? YES! Do I go to Mass every Sunday and Holy Day? Yes! I guess what I am saying is that although I may question certain decisions and changes personally, I am in no position to question the Holy Father or the Magesterium. That is what Luther did, along with his other complaints. I accept the leadership of Rome. I wish we had fewer Bishops, Priests and Religious that, either directly or by innuendo, failed to follow the example as laid down both in writing and by action of H.H. Pope Benedict XVI. The tide of the Spirit is moving and although some do not wish it, many welcome the return to more traditional worship. There will be bumps along the way, but we as Catholics must stay in union with the Holy Father if more than just a remnant of the Church will survive.

Pax Christi
 
I remember things like diocese-wide meetings of priests, and I think of all the “(name removed by moderator)ut” everybody wants to have on something like a diocese program. These things can drag on forever. . . .
And I can recall interminable business meeting which were similar, thinking, “Lord, deliver us from “(name removed by moderator)ut.””

I recall being very young back just post-Vatican II when for some reason the local diocese did actually ask for “(name removed by moderator)ut” about the liturgy. I sent in a comment saying something like “the liturgy should loosen up a little.” Now, after all that’s happened, I feel guilty about that comment! Surely nobody could have been inclined to take such a callow comment seriously!" Mea culpa.
 
And I can recall interminable business meeting which were similar, thinking, “Lord, deliver us from “(name removed by moderator)ut.””

I recall being very young back just post-Vatican II when for some reason the local diocese did actually ask for “(name removed by moderator)ut” about the liturgy. I sent in a comment saying something like “the liturgy should loosen up a little.” Now, after all that’s happened, I feel guilty about that comment! Surely nobody could have been inclined to take such a callow comment seriously!" Mea culpa.
Ah ha!!!

It’s all YOUR fault.

Mystery solved.
 
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