Responses to attacks on faith

[TomD123]

Surviving a gunshot wound, no matter where one is shot, does not a miracle make.

Let me get this straight, your barometer for whether or not something may be true, is if people are tortured or killed for their belief?

People die for all sorts of ridiculous reasons, yet it doesn’t make the reason for their death true.

918 people died in the Jonestown massacre…some were murdered and some died willingly for their beliefs.

The gunshot wound I was referring to was one to the head that went through the middle of the brain and the person who had the bullet go through their head survived with no damage at all. However, if this miracle does not satisfy you, there are many many more.

My point about people getting tortured over UFOs was that most people claiming to see UFOs are not really serious. The amount of people killed for something does not prove it is true, it just proves that the people claiming it to be true are serious believers. People do not die for crazy beliefs like UFOs because they do not really believe it, many people just goof around and others are a little nuts and they like to have publicity and to make a story.

 

[Zatzat]

. People do not die for crazy beliefs like UFOs because they do not really believe it

You’ve lost me…what is your point?

 

[TomD123]

You’ve lost me…what is your point?

My point is pretty clear, most people who claim to see UFOs do not seriously think they see UFOs, some are just kidding and others are kind of crazy and they want recognition or something. No body really makes their life revolve around the serious belief in UFOs.

 

[Zatzat]

My point is pretty clear, most people who claim to see UFOs do not seriously think they see UFOs, some are just kidding and others are kind of crazy and they want recognition or something. No body really makes their life revolve around the serious belief in UFOs.

They still believe despite there being no credible evidence that UFO’s visit earth.

No different than a Theist believing that a particular God exists…without evidence.

 

[TomD123]

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. Regardless of our Religion, we should be able to agree that UFOs are not comparable to Religion. The number of people who seriously believe in UFOs is small, and the few who do have no credible evidence to demonstrate that their claims are true. Religion is a much more serious belief and even if one is an atheist, they should acknowledge the fact that UFO sightings and Religion are entirely different.

But Catholics have reason to believe they are right. You can accept those reasons or not, it is up to you, but you cannot criticize us for not having evidence, because we do have some. You may not agree in what the evidence proves, or that the evidence is very strong but you cannot keep asking (as all atheists do) for God to either appear or to heal an amputee. Even if God did do one of these things (the first which he did do-Jesus) non-believers would still not believe because they do not want to. We have multiple saints who are credited with multiple healing miracles that baffle doctors, we have the Shroud of Turin, the cloth from Guadalupe, countless Eucharistic miracles, and much more. Atheists are not only not convinced, but they are unwilling to give us credit for showing evidence!

 

[Zatzat]

Regardless of our Religion, we should be able to agree that UFOs are not comparable to Religion.

 

[TomD123]

If you say that UFO sightings and Religion are the same then you have no idea what you are saying. Are you posting on some forum that debates the existence of UFOs- NO! You are on the Catholic Answer Forums! This is because religion is important and it is a much bigger issue than UFOs.
When you say it baffles you that people believe in these miracles what do you mean? Why? Many smart Doctors have examined the people who have been cured of a disease miraculously and still you seem to “know” that you are right. BUT THESE ARE NOT THE ONLY MIRACLES, and they are not subjective! The shroud of Turin is not subjective. As an atheist, you can say it is a fraud based on scientific studies and as a Catholic I can accept it based on Scientific studies. (There is NOTHING subjective about finding type AB blood on the cloth) I could go on about non-subjective “miracles” like the bodies of some saints which have not decayed but I won’t because no matter how much evidence I would give you, you would not believe.

 

[Miss_Shelby]

Here are some ways to response to attacks on christianity:

I have been reading this forum with some growing interest over the past day or two. IMO, the best response to some of the atheist/nonchristiain/self-glorifying/ posters here is no response at all. We are operating from two completely different frames of reference. Nothing a Catholic says is going to convince the mini-god of the truth and nothing the atheist says is going to carry one weight of veracity with the Catholic. Seems pointless to me.

 

[Zatzat]

I the best response to some of the atheist/nonchristiain/self-glorifying/ posters here is no response at all.

Please, tell us how you really feel about people who don’t believe in your choice of God.

 

[tonyrey]

They are both believed without evidence.

How do you decide what is “evidence”? Only what you can hear, see, feel ,taste and smell?

 

[Zatzat]

This is because religion is important and it is a much bigger issue than UFOs.

Bigger or smaller, it matters not. They both deal with belief without evidence.

When you say it baffles you that people believe in these miracles what do you mean?

1. Why does the God of Abraham get the credit? Why not Vishnu, Brahman or Bal?
2. As soon as something is unexplained, God immediately gets the credit?

Why? Many smart Doctors have examined the people who have been cured of a disease miraculously and still you seem to “know” that you are right

Again, why credit mans limitations at finding explanations for natural events, to a supernatural God? Not just any supernatural God, but a specific brand of God.

The shroud of Turin is not subjective.

The shroud of Turin has been duplicated in the lab and the actual shroud of Turin has been discredited.

 

[TomD123]

1. As I said before, if you really think UFOs and Religion are the same because they are both false, then why spend time on the Catholic Answer Forums, why not a forum on Aliens or UFOs or something?
2. The Catholic God (or God of Abraham as you call him) gets credit for the healing miracles because the miracles come right after a prayer to a Catholic Saint or after attending a Catholic apparition spot (like Lourdes France). The reason we call them miracles is because they are sudden and not explainable by the science we have. (And notice that the sudden unexplained healings do not happen when praying to any other god like Vishnu)
3. Just because the shroud can be duplicated in a lab does not mean that it is inauthentic (but I agree that it could mean that). However, here are the unanswered questions about the shroud that make me think that it IS authentic: Why did this artist of the 13th century (or whenever you would say the shroud was made) use an artistic style that could not even be appreciated until photography came around? Why did this artist use this style of artwork only once? Why did he never tell any other artists about this new style of art? Why is there blood on the shroud? Why does the man in the shroud have swelling under one eye? Why does the blood type on the shroud match the blood type from the miracle of Lanciano despite the fact that AB blood is the least common (but not so uncommon in Palestine)?

But, I guess according to you, Its all just a coincidence

 

[neisan]

One question. If the pope is filling in for Christ until His second coming, can the pope save anyone from their sins?

good question but you seem to misunderstand.The Pope is leading the Church militant,the way to be saved is to confess and show true desire to repent

 

[neisan]

I’m game.

Ct scan and MRI’s are a way for me to see my brain. When I’m dead, a coroner can crack my skull and low and behold, my brain will be visible to all. The very fact that I can interact with the world is because I have a functioning brain. Through deductive reasoning and purse science, I can prove that although I cannot physically see my brain that is encased in my skull, I can prove without a doubt using the scientific method, that my brain in fact is present.

You cannot do the same for any invisible supernatural God, let alone your specific brand of God.

Which God? How do you know it is the God you named and not some other super God?

What act of goodness does a 1 hour old baby commit?
How do you know that this God has made humans good at heart and if so, how do you know it is your God and not say, uhm… Vishnu who is responsible?

You don’t care if your neighbours priest is a child molester? Just so long as your Priest is a good guy? Lovely.

A child’s entire family is killed in a genocidal blood bath called Rwanda. The child is made to watch as her family is hacked to death. The child is then abused, tortured and killed herself. Yes, such horrific things happen.

Where is this God of yours and please, enlighten us all…where is the lovely silver lining that will strengthen…whom shall it strengthen? The savages who slaughtered the family?

Saints mean nothing to me.
Cite your source regarding a man trapped in rubble for one month and who survived.
Cite your source regarding a man who lifted a car to save a trapped child underneath it.

When you come across what you perceive to be an unexplained event, how fascinating that you immediately want to give credit to your God. I say again, if you are going to give credit to a God, why not Vishnu or Brahman?

I’ll start paying attention to these everyday miracles when amputee’s start growing back perfectly healthy and functioning limbs or when persons born with cerebral palsy, are suddenly healed.

Catholics are Christians, just as how Protestants are Christians. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of disagreement amongst you all.

1.by seeing your own brain I meant,can you physically remove your brain and stay alive to see it?I didn’t mean after death or through an image.Just as no one can truly see God unless they are dead.
2.The man in haiti who survived a month was on the news
3.A teacher of mine knew of a man who did the rescue.
4.I do not recognize hindu gods because I don’t believe in them.
5.Saints should mean something to you,Francis is one of the reasons the churches in the east weren’t destroyed by the Muslims.Saint joan of Arc is the reason the king of France could win the war against the british as he wasn’t a very…confident man before her coming.
6.humans are naturally good.Take a person,isolate him from any bad influences and he shall grow innocent.He won’t know about murder or anything.just as we were according to Scripture.
7.The thing about the Catholics not being Christians was not a word of mine,but of another.there are ignorant people in the world who try to tear others down to make them look good.
8.now the priest thing is about that I do care for the bad priests,but seeing as I can’t do anything about them,I just stick to my business with my church.
9.it’s scripture that says that God is the one true god.He had a name but we mustn’t speak of it.
10.Now as for that child,the inhumanities of that incident will be exposed and things will taken care of.If she survives the suffering,she will speak of the tragedies she endured and then we can learn truly of what happened.

 

[neisan]

sighIt seems that evey thread I start recently turns into a large debate.Why did I even open this dratted thing.

 

[Zatzat]

As I said before, if you really think UFOs and Religion are the same because they are both false, then why spend time on the Catholic Answer Forums, why not a forum on Aliens or UFOs or something?

UFO believers do not try to change public policy to appease their system of belief.

1. The Catholic God (or God of Abraham as you call him) gets credit for the healing miracles because the miracles come right after a prayer to a Catholic Saint or after attending a Catholic apparition spot (like Lourdes France). The reason we call them miracles is because they are sudden and not explainable by the science we have. (And notice that the sudden unexplained healings do not happen when praying to any other god like Vishnu)

Google Hindu milk miracles. Be prepared to be amazed at the amazing supernatural miracles of the Hindu faith!

1. Just because the shroud can be duplicated in a lab does not mean that it is inauthentic (but I agree that it could mean that). However, here are the unanswered questions about the shroud that make me think that it IS authentic: Why did this artist of the 13th century (or whenever you would say the shroud was made) use an artistic style that could not even be appreciated until photography came around? Why did this artist use this style of artwork only once? Why did he never tell any other artists about this new style of art? Why is there blood on the shroud? Why does the man in the shroud have swelling under one eye? Why does the blood type on the shroud match the blood type from the miracle of Lanciano despite the fact that AB blood is the least common (but not so uncommon in Palestine)?

But, I guess according to you, Its all just a coincidence.

No, a fraud.

 

[Zatzat]

1].by seeing your own brain I meant,can you physically remove your brain and stay alive to see it?I didn’t mean after death or through an image.Just as no one can truly see God unless they are dead.

If you’re going to play games…

God is all powerful, can God create something so heavy that he cannot lift it?

2.The man in haiti who survived a month was on the news

Cite source, with a link.

3.A teacher of mine knew of a man who did the rescue.

Cite source with a link.

4.I do not recognize hindu gods because I don’t believe in them.

That doesn’t make them any less real, now does it?

5.Saints should mean something to you,Francis is one of the reasons the churches in the east weren’t destroyed by the Muslims.Saint joan of Arc is the reason the king of France could win the war against the british as he wasn’t a very…confident man before her coming.

…yet they don’t mean anything to me.

6.humans are naturally good.Take a person,isolate him from any bad influences and he shall grow innocent.He won’t know about murder or anything.just as we were according to Scripture.

No man is free from the ugly stain of sin and not man is innocent…at least according to Christians.

8.now the priest thing is about that I do care for the bad priests,but seeing as I can’t do anything about them,I just stick to my business with my church.

That’s called, keeping your head firmly planted in the sand.

10.Now as for that child,the inhumanities of that incident will be exposed and things will taken care of.If she survives the suffering,she will speak of the tragedies she endured and then we can learn truly of what happened.

Unless of course, she’s tortured, raped and killed. No silver lining there and no, no one is getting any stronger out of that one…

 

[TomD123]

The Hindu milk miracle may seem unexplainable, but my point throughout this discussion has been one “miracle” cannot prove the Religion. A miracle can only point to the truth. I am not saying every unexplainable event that has occurred relating to Catholicism is true (even most) but with just so many I find it hard to believe that NONE of them are true. (And the Church also takes a very cautious stance when looking at miracles, apparitions, etc.)Also, some events are more convincing than others. Magicians can perform great unexplainable magic tricks but this is because they are skilled and not really magic. A healing miracle is different than something like a magic trick because it is not an optical illusion, the person who once had a disease either still does or does not any more- there is no matter of illusion.

As for the Shroud, there are still many unanswered questions on the post. In addition to that, the coincidence I was talking about was the fact that the miracle of Lanciano and the Shroud have the same blood type. What is the explanation for this? Did the forgers of the Shroud decide to find someone who was willing to shed a little blood on their drawing?

Finally, you said in your previous post:
Quote:
3.A teacher of mine knew of a man who did the rescue.
Cite source with a link.

I do not quite understand what you mean by this. How can you site a source with a link from the personal experience of someone knowing the man who did the rescue?

 

[Zatzat]

I do not quite understand what you mean by this. How can you site a source with a link from the personal experience of someone knowing the man who did the rescue?

Newspapers, journals, news video etc…

Surely such an amazing feat would have made the news. Yes?

 

[tonyrey]

sighIt seems that evey thread I start recently turns into a large debate.Why did I even open this dratted thing.

That is the purpose of a forum…