Responsorial Psalms: what translation are they using?

[RomanRevert]

Just returned from Mass and had a couple of questions:

I have always wondered this … the responsorial Psalms that are sung more often than not in Mass are using translations that at times hardly even resemble what is in the Missal. What translation are these writers (Haas, Haugen, etc) using when they come up with these responsorials? I really hope that they are not creating it on their own to match their droll ditties that they write. Anyone know?

On another point, how does one get “Jesus bread of life” out of “Agnus Dei”? Sounds a little creative and wrong.

Thanks!

 

[Phemie]

Just returned from Mass and had a couple of questions:

I have always wondered this … the responsorial Psalms that are sung more often than not in Mass are using translations that at times hardly even resemble what is in the Missal. What translation are these writers (Haas, Haugen, etc) using when they come up with these responsorials? I really hope that they are not creating it on their own to match their droll ditties that they write. Anyone know?

On another point, how does one get “Jesus bread of life” out of “Agnus Dei”? Sounds a little creative and wrong.

Thanks!

The USCCB has recently said that the Agnus Dei tropes are perfectly fine. Haugen’s MOC is the only one I’m familiar with that does this. I have a problem with changing the rules to allow a Mass setting written by a non-Catholic who took it upon himself to ‘improve’ the Liturgy.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

I think that many songwriters do their own paraphrasing. Translations of the psalms that do not match the words in the Lectionary cannot be used as responsorial psalms at Mass. They can, however, be used as hymns (processional, recessional, etc.).

 

[Elzee]

The USCCB has recently said that the Agnus Dei tropes are perfectly fine. Haugen’s MOC is the only one I’m familiar with that does this. I have a problem with changing the rules to allow a Mass setting written by a non-Catholic who took it upon himself to ‘improve’ the Liturgy.

I didn’t think the USCCB could authorize a change to the Missal without the approval of Rome, therefore the tropes are not allowed. That’s my understanding at least…anyone a Canon Lawyer who could verify? We sing this horrible song sometimes that says “peace, I leave with you my friend, my friend, and I am with you till the end” - this line comes before each of the 3 “Lamb of God” refrains. ugh.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I think that many songwriters do their own paraphrasing. Translations of the psalms that do not match the words in the Lectionary cannot be used as responsorial psalms at Mass. They can, however, be used as hymns (processional, recessional, etc.).

Again, as with the trope issue, the recent USCCB document says that paraphrase is ok as long as it doesn’t change the meaning.

Right or wrong, agree or disagree, are different matters altogether.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Again, as with the trope issue, the recent USCCB document says that paraphrase is ok as long as it doesn’t change the meaning.

Right or wrong, agree or disagree, are different matters altogether.

Could you help me locate the “recent USCCB document” you mentioned? I haven’t seen it. Thanks!

 

[Mintaka]

I’m not particularly fond of the tropes, and neither is the Vatican.

Nevertheless, it must be remembered that the medievals used troping (and banned it a couple hundred years later) that was a lot more extensive than anything done today.

For example, on a Marian feast, you might sing the equivalent of:

Lamb of God…
Immaculate Mary, your praises we sing!
You dwell now in splendor with Jesus our King!
…You take away the sin of the world…

Heh! I’m serious! They did this! Originally, the tropes commented on the original, but after a while, they started to wander. Generally then, the troping was customized to the occasion of the Mass. So if you were doing a Mass on St. Kentigern’s Day, you’d sing about St. Kentigern Mungo during the Agnus Dei!

So… yes, we’re tacky today. But there were other tacky times in liturgical history.

An article on chant that talks about tropes.

 

[benedictgal]

The USCCB has recently said that the Agnus Dei tropes are perfectly fine. Haugen’s MOC is the only one I’m familiar with that does this. I have a problem with changing the rules to allow a Mass setting written by a non-Catholic who took it upon himself to ‘improve’ the Liturgy.

Phemie, I don’t think you’re reading it correctly. From what the document states, this is only done if the Fraction Rite is extended. I can’t copy and paste a PDF file, but, the document notes that when the invocations may be repeated until the rite is over, meaning it can go on and on and on, although the likelihood of that ever happening is pretty much nil. I mean at Papal Masses, the Holy Father manages to complete the fraction rite within the time it takes to sing the Agnus Dei.

I am afraid that this loophole was created to merely justify what Haugen was doing. Of course, the Spanglish version by Bob Hurd really takes the cake. His goes on and on and on.

 

[benedictgal]

Again, as with the trope issue, the recent USCCB document says that paraphrase is ok as long as it doesn’t change the meaning.

Right or wrong, agree or disagree, are different matters altogether.

However, it is listed as the last possible option and should not be the norm. And, the tropes for the Agnus Dei are only to be used if the Fraction Rite has not concluded by the time the choir reaches the third part of the Agnus Dei.

You need to be careful how these things are interpreted. It seems a rather slipshod way of doing things, but, this document was hijacked at the behest of both the National Pastoral Musicians Association and the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions. Had this document been sent to Rome as it was originally supposed to have been (in order to be in compliance with Liturgical Authenticam), the Holy See would probably have sent it back with concerns. As it stands, this document doesn’t have any teeth to it because it doesn’t carry the same weight as something with Recognitio from the Holy See.

The way I see it, it causes more problems than anything because people are going to “read into it” and interpret it as they please rather than read what the fine print actually says.

 

[benedictgal]

I didn’t think the USCCB could authorize a change to the Missal without the approval of Rome, therefore the tropes are not allowed. That’s my understanding at least…anyone a Canon Lawyer who could verify? We sing this horrible song sometimes that says “peace, I leave with you my friend, my friend, and I am with you till the end” - this line comes before each of the 3 “Lamb of God” refrains. ugh.

What you just described in your last sentence is ilicit. That is taking paraphrasing to the extreme. It’s almost as bad as the Great Amen that is in Spirit and Song that ends with “Amen, we do believe.” It’s probably one of those horrid OCP things.