Restoration of Traditional Roman Catholicism Even Possible?

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Do you think that the traditional priestly societies like the FSSP and ICRSS along with the traditional-minded laity will be able to restore Traditional Catholicism? Is it enough? True, the progressive priests are dying out and the seminarians are more traditional than before but do you think we will ever attain what we have lost? I am interested in anyone’s opinion or any ideas to restore Traditional Catholicism.

pax vobiscum
 
What do you mean by “traditional Roman Catholicism”?

The way things were in 1961?

At the death of Pius XII?

Before the reform of the Breviary with a radical rearrangement of the Psalter in 1911?

In other words, first clarify your standard for tradition.
 
I’d settle for as things were before 1961. 😃 All joking aside, yes I suppose that is the date I would use as the cutoff point.
 
i’m new == why would 1961 be a cut-off date. I am concerned about protestant heresy creeping into the church because so many protestants are coming to the church or with catholics returning from protestant churches who want their catholic church to be like the protestant church.

thank you
 
i’m new == why would 1961 be a cut-off date. I am concerned about protestant heresy creeping into the church because so many protestants are coming to the church or with catholics returning from protestant churches who want their catholic church to be like the protestant church.

thank you
I would think that the opposite would be more likely to be the case, in that people coming into the Church would be coming into the Church because of the history, the tradition, the truth, the faithfulness.

If a protestant convert or a revert was coming into/back into the Church it is unlikely that they would move from one churche to another simply for more of what they had expreienced in their old church.

Just my :twocents: as a ‘convert’ with traditional leanings.
 
I don’t think we can go back to 1961 – or anywhere in the past for that matter. What we can do is recover the sense of the sacred. That will require good catechesis, priests who celebrate the Liturgy reverently and in accord with the directives from Rome. It will require the laity to take an active role in reclaiming not only the sense of the sacred, but the sensus fidelium that is a hallmark of the Catholic Church.

Deacon Ed
 
I don’t think we can go back to 1961 – or anywhere in the past for that matter. What we can do is recover the sense of the sacred.
Personally, I have no problem with the Missal of 1962. Apparently PP Benedict XVI doesn’t either. As I see it, that is the road to recovering the sense of the sacred, since that was essentially the pause-point in the “organic development” of the Latin Rite liturgy. It’s not a matter of “going back” in time, but rather picking up at the point of pause.
 
Do you think that the traditional priestly societies like the FSSP and ICRSS along with the traditional-minded laity will be able to restore Traditional Catholicism? Is it enough? True, the progressive priests are dying out and the seminarians are more traditional than before but do you think we will ever attain what we have lost? I am interested in anyone’s opinion or any ideas to restore Traditional Catholicism.

pax vobiscum
I think that there can be a restoration. In our increasingly multicultural societies our Universal Church needs a universal language. An example if I may.

Some years ago, we brought our children to Paris, France on holiday. We attended Mass one day in the Sacre Coeur in Montmartre. On the way out I noticed our oldest girl had tears in her eyes. I asked her what was wrong and she told me there was nothing wrong with her. “Why were you crying”, I asked. She replied that it was the most beautiful Mass she had been at and she cried because she was happy. Seeing as the Mass was in French I asked her if she could follow it. Of course she could because she saw what the priest was doing and could tell what part of the Mass it was. She then said that the only bad thing was that she couldn’t answer the priest except when the answer was “Amen”. “Why don’t we all use the same language?” she said, “Then we could go to Mass anywhere.”

This was brought home to me a few times in the last few years. On holiday in Florida, separate Masses for different ethnic groups struck me as a parish split in two by language. While it is important for a priest to be able to communicate with his parishioners, shouldn’t those same parishioners be able to worship together. Here at home in Ireland we have in Dublin, a separate parish for the Polish community. Where is the universality in that?
 
On holiday in Florida, separate Masses for different ethnic groups struck me as a parish split in two by language. While it is important for a priest to be able to communicate with his parishioners, shouldn’t those same parishioners be able to worship together. Here at home in Ireland we have in Dublin, a separate parish for the Polish community. Where is the universality in that?
Ethnic parishes may be a new phenomenon in Ireland (with the EU, and all) but they were (and still are in a way) common in the US. In pre-conciliar days, they existed mainly for the support of the various ethnic groups, but of course the Mass was the same: it was only the sermon (or “homily” for those that will insist on arguing semantics) that was in the “national” (read: vernacular to the congregation) tongue. So, e.g. a Tagalog speaker could assist at Mass in a Polish parish and be comfortable, except maybe with the sermon. (No big loss there.)

Of course, with the OF there are still “ethnic communities” most often co-habiting one parish. But now it’s a lot different: the OF is done totally in whichever language is service is designated for. So an Chinese speaker going to a Spanish-language service gets just that. A German speaker going to a Vietnamese-language service gets just that. And on top of it all, now, it’s not only the sermon that they don’t understand, it’s the entire service.

The parish I attend for the EF has a large Spanish-speaking community and hardly any attend the EF. There’s also a (much smaller) Haitian community, and interesting enough a respectable number of them do attend the EF regularly.

Sometimes I pine for the “old days” when Mass was Mass. One can live without a sermon. One can’t live without the Holy Oblation.
 
Traditionalists like myself take encouragement from the Nicene Creed :" …cujus regni non erit finis " = “…and his Kingdom will have no end.” Traditional Catholicism remains - thank God for the Latin Mass Society here in England and Una Voce worldwide - our task is to increase its reach.

The plain ordinariness of the Ordinary Form / Novus Ordo / New Mass will be its end: the faithful need to be uplifted by worship that takes us beyond things of this world. The Traditional Latin Mass (“TLM”) does that: the new Mass, even if said with the utmost reverence, falls some way short.

Let us pray too, for the full re-integration back into the Church of the Society of Saint Pius XII. (“SSPX”), and that those sincere but misguided traditionalists who no longer recognise the Holy See, be reconciled too. Division comes from the Devil.

Last Sunday, we were on holiday in Rye on the English south coast.The Priest saying Sunday Mass at St Anthony of Padua, an American Franciscan, said something really memorable in his homily: “Tradition, the Magisterium and Scripture are like the three legs of a stool. Without one, we fall over.”

Now this Priest was not a “traditionalist” in the classic mould: the Mass was OF, he did not wear a maniple and he was assisted at communion by a female ECM, but he spoke very strongly of the need to remember and uphold Tradition. To me, this is but one sign that the force of Tradition, the “Deposit of Faith” is once more being acknowledged, not just by TLM attenders, but many others too.

Pax vobiscum.
 
Do you think that the traditional priestly societies like the FSSP and ICRSS along with the traditional-minded laity will be able to restore Traditional Catholicism? Is it enough? True, the progressive priests are dying out and the seminarians are more traditional than before but do you think we will ever attain what we have lost? I am interested in anyone’s opinion or any ideas to restore Traditional Catholicism.

pax vobiscum
Since history hasn’t (that I’m aware of) repeated itself, I would say no. I hope for many more EFs available, I hope for a return to one ecclesial language, I hope for all Catholics giving the reverence due Him in worship - when it all comes down to it though, the Holy Spirit will decide. He will turn our small hopes into something so wonderful that we couldn’t have even imagined it.😉
 
I not only think it’s possible, I believe it is the church’s only option. It’s not a numbers game though. Better to have parishes with 100 people attending the TLM, gradually hoping for 150, then all the “Catholic” mega churches, and left wing activist parishes. We’re about quality not quantity.
 
i’m new == why would 1961 be a cut-off date. I am concerned about protestant heresy creeping into the church because so many protestants are coming to the church or with catholics returning from protestant churches who want their catholic church to be like the protestant church.

thank you
In my limited observation, I too am a convert, the opposite is true. It is often the converts who are very much opposed to Protestant influence in the Church. But then, I am not a convert from Protestantism, but rather Atheism. As a convert, I am moving closer and closer to the more tradition expressions of worship. I find them less distracting and they help me focus more on actual worship rather than being entertained by the liturgy. The day may soon come when I abandon the Ordinary Form of the Mass altogether.
 
Do you think that the traditional priestly societies like the FSSP and ICRSS along with the traditional-minded laity will be able to restore Traditional Catholicism? Is it enough? True, the progressive priests are dying out and the seminarians are more traditional than before but do you think we will ever attain what we have lost? I am interested in anyone’s opinion or any ideas to restore Traditional Catholicism.

pax vobiscum
I hope and pray they continue to celebrate and live Catholicism, not restore it. If you think it needs to be restored then you’re saying that it’s been lost for whatever period of time you’re referring to. Do you really think God has abandoned the Church?

Cheers
 
I hope and pray they continue to celebrate and live Catholicism, not restore it. If you think it needs to be restored then you’re saying that it’s been lost for whatever period of time you’re referring to. Do you really think God has abandoned the Church?

Cheers
I have the same prayer, friend, that we may continue to celebrate and live Catholicism! Yet, it is a terrible truth that in some areas Catholicism has been watered down and a certain amount of restoration is needed to achieve true and faithful obedience to Sacred Tradition. I do not believe God has abandoned His Holy Church but I do believe that some Catholics have abandoned God.

In Christ,
Irish
 
Thanks IrishDude. You’re right, we need to get on track with Sacred Tradition, the most obvious and immediate reference which is, of course the Ecumenical Council of Vatican II. Much progress has been made, but much remains as well.

Cheers
 
I pray everyday for the return of traditional Catholicism. Especially that we will go back to a traditional Mass in Latin.

I keep thinking about how cultures are destroyed, in part, by taking away the language (it was done to the Native Americans in N. America). When you take away someone’s language you take away the heart of the culture.

I think we are talking about the death of Catholic culture.
 
I would think that the opposite would be more likely to be the case, in that people coming into the Church would be coming into the Church because of the history, the tradition, the truth, the faithfulness.

If a protestant convert or a revert was coming into/back into the Church it is unlikely that they would move from one churche to another simply for more of what they had expreienced in their old church.

Just my :twocents: as a ‘convert’ with traditional leanings.
I would definitely agree with this. I am a potential convert and I definitely am drawn to the more traditional side of things. I want to be in a Catholic Parish that is very…well…very Catholic! The TLM society near me is a big plus, although I have no issues or qualms with a reverently celebrated Ordinary Form Mass, fortunately there are several reverent and more traditional minded Ordinary Form parishes in my area. I definitely appreciate the beautiful tradition, reverence before our Lord, and rich history of the Faith.

All of these things help to reinforce the Truth that we have been given from Christ by the Apostles.
 
My personal answer to this is that the drive toward the traditional Church it is not only possible, but visible every day and will acquire more and more strenght in the coming decades.

God willing, in 50 or 60 years time (one-two generations) the years of the post conciliars follies will be seen as a dangerous aberration, for which the Church has been punished badly enough in loss of followers and prestige, at least in the West.

In my eyes, this is all being undone now. The old becomes the new, or better said what the centuries have hallowed becomes the way of the Church again.
I do not see this process as reversible, on the contrary it seems to me that the decades will expose with increasing brutality all the mistakes of the past decades. The following generations will look at the seventies and eighties, and blush for those for made the mess possible.

I do not know whether the Church will return to a generalised latin mass (yes, I would say, given a generation or two), and even then probably starting from the 1962 missal, which is good enough anyway.

What I am persuaded of, is that more and more faithful, and the new generations who are going to come, are going to say no to the sugary fast food we have been served in the last decades, and demand the exquisite food which has been the privilege of all past generations until the post-conciliar phase of temporary madness.

And of course, coke quenches your thirst as well as Barolo; but you really do not want to compare.

This awareness is, I think, becoming increasingly common among catholics; the fast-food, shallow, emotional, “how-good-we-are”, “let us be marry” experience of the past will make place for the exquisite, deeply spiritual, beautifully and devoutly solemn, fulfilling experience our forefathers had the joy to celebrate.
A sacrifice, not a party. A solemn sacrifice and not the time for jokes and liturgical dances and guitars and tambourines; “the most beautiful thing this side of heaven”, not the disfiguring of the sacrifice behind a badly understood sense of “community”, and a very smug one at that.

I hope that before I die I’ll be able to see all the guitars, the tambourines, the liturgical dancers consigned to a shameful past always to be remembered, never to be repeated.
I hope to see the cheesy modern hymns substituted by the wonderfully spiritual Gregorian chant again; I hope to see chancels again, and churches which look like churches rathern than convention centres, and with proper bell towers.

I hope to see the Communion devoutly received as it has for so many centuries: kneeling, and on the tongue, as it fits to the most incredible of gifts, and the most beautiful of miracles, on Earth.

I hope to see priests devoting the homily to robust cathechesis rather than feel-good common places chosen in order not to offend anyone’s “feelings” (a modern god, these ones); to tell us what is right and what is wrong, in no uncertain terms; to remind us that it is not for us to reason but to obey, not for us to decide what Jesus would do today, but to try and imitate Him in what he really did.
And no, He was not a vegetarian; and no, He was not a teetotaller; and no, He was not a pacifist; but yes, He was Christ.

The time will come when Jesus’ teaching will be taught and respected again, rather than adapted to the ideologies of modern times, bent to the golden calves of political correctness, reduced to a sort of feel-good western Gandhi or made to adhere to every possible “-ism” on earth.

Much of this, I see already happening. It will be a long march, but frankly I cannot see who or what could stop it, the Cardinals are robustly conservative and the next Pope will be on the mould of the present one (may God give him a long and healthy life!).

Time is on our side, and the Holy Ghost is clearly at work …
 
I pray everyday for the return of traditional Catholicism. Especially that we will go back to a traditional Mass in Latin.

I keep thinking about how cultures are destroyed, in part, by taking away the language (it was done to the Native Americans in N. America). When you take away someone’s language you take away the heart of the culture.

I think we are talking about the death of Catholic culture.
Lisa, your post resonates with this conservative, but not traditionalist, Catholic.

I can’t dispute what you say, although I don’t think there is anything magic about Latin.

Very interesting.
 
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