Restoring Tradition

[dmorgan]

Can anyone think of a more powerfull argument to removing the novus ordo, restoring full tradition and cleaning house of the V-II crowd than the current scandal? I know God uses calamity to bring about good, so I cannot help but wonder at what is happenning now whithout thinking this is a cleaning process in the making. I certainly am praying for that result!

 

[choy]

wow, you’re blaming the OF mass for whats happening to today’s Church?

read Noli Me Tangere by Dr. Jose Rizal, a Philippine hero. he writes about sins of Friars during the Spanish occupation of the Philippines from teh 1500s to the 1800s, well before Vatican II. you will see that even back then, there are a few priests who father children and hoard wealth.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

wow, you’re blaming the OF mass for whats happening to today’s Church?

read Noli Me Tangere by Dr. Jose Rizal, a Philippine hero. he writes about sins of Friars during the Spanish occupation of the Philippines from teh 1500s to the 1800s, well before Vatican II. you will see that even back then, there are a few priests who father children and hoard wealth.

Post-Vatican II, the Novus Ordo is 80% of the reason people have left the Catholic Church.

 

[choy]

Post-Vatican II, the Novus Ordo is 80% of the reason people have left the Catholic Church.

can you back that up?

i know a lot of former Catholics and i can assure you that they didn’t leave because they want Latin

while people i know isn’t exactly valid statistical data, i’m wondering if you have anything to back up your claim

 

[Hereswith]

Can anyone think of a more powerfull argument to removing the novus ordo, restoring full tradition and cleaning house of the V-II crowd than the current scandal? I know God uses calamity to bring about good, so I cannot help but wonder at what is happenning now whithout thinking this is a cleaning process in the making. I certainly am praying for that result!

Whoa!!! What gave you the notion that pedaphilia in the priesthood is a product of the Post-VII Era?? I think it is probably more obvious than in the past, as it has become more and more acceptable for victims to come forward in society as a whole. I’m sure it was occurring with the same enthusiasm for centuries before V-II. Maybe I am misunderstanding your meaning?

However, like you, I would like to see a lot of things return to tradition, before V-II. Perhaps the scandal is a way to cause the Church to reassess things. . . but I fear that the scandal is doing way too much damage. In fact it terrifies me.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

can you back that up?

i know a lot of former Catholics and i can assure you that they didn’t leave because they want Latin

while people i know isn’t exactly valid statistical data, i’m wondering if you have anything to back up your claim

It was just an estimate, but pretty accurate I think. People haven’t left because they wanted Latin, they left because something about the change from Vatican II didn’t seem right to them.

 

[michaeldaniels]

YOu are right…they left for that and because they can’t live a faithful, devout, and practicing Catholic lifestyle or they grew up in the modern Church and had a horrible Catechesis and therefore left out of ignorance…

can you back that up?

i know a lot of former Catholics and i can assure you that they didn’t leave because they want Latin

while people i know isn’t exactly valid statistical data, i’m wondering if you have anything to back up your claim

 

[choy]

It was just an estimate, but pretty accurate I think. People haven’t left because they wanted Latin, they left because something about the change from Vatican II didn’t seem right to them.

either you two produce verifiable stats or you’re just trolling

like i said, while i cannot say that people i know is a valid statistical group, i never know anyone who left the Catholic Church because they stand up during communion, receive on their hands, and the mass is not in Latin

i used to live in a country of 90 million people where 80% are Catholics

i have a pretty good idea of why a good number of Catholics there leave the Church, and none of them are from the reasons you claim. you’re creating misinformation to push your own personal agenda by stating non-existent statistics to fool those who are less informed in this forum

how sad. claiming to be traditional catholics, but cannot submit themselves to the wisdom of the Church and its leaders

 

[puzzleannie]

Can anyone think of a more powerfull argument to removing the novus ordo, restoring full tradition and cleaning house of the V-II crowd than the current scandal? I !

since there is not a shred, not an iota, not a scintilla of evidence linking the reform of the liturgy to the sex scandal, my answer would have to be, NO. since one of the most notorious offenders has proven to be the founder of a very traditional order advocating return to traditional liturgy, among other things, that is further evidence against your wholly unwarranted assertion.

 

[Erin_Anne]

YOu are right…they left for that and because they can’t live a faithful, devout, and practicing Catholic lifestyle or they grew up in the modern Church and had a horrible Catechesis and therefore left out of ignorance…

I agree.

My paternal Grandparents tried very hard to accept the Novus Ordo, but liberalism ran rampant in the years after VII, and out of pure sadness, they eventually chose to no longer attend Mass at all. They felt betrayed.

I myself went to Catholic School (all post VII), and NEVER once did we go over the Catechism itself. Never. The “Religion” classes were more “Morality” classes, IMO. We learned about Jesus, Mary, Saints, right and wrong, etc… but not Canon Law specifically.
I left the Church when I was a teenager, and as you said - it was out of ignorance. I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I was gone for 17 years until I chose to pick up the Catechism and read it myself – then things made sense, and I have become devout in the time since.

 

[Erin_Anne]

Can anyone think of a more powerfull argument to removing the novus ordo, restoring full tradition and cleaning house of the V-II crowd than the current scandal? I know God uses calamity to bring about good, so I cannot help but wonder at what is happenning now whithout thinking this is a cleaning process in the making. I certainly am praying for that result!

As far as VII having anything to do with the current sex abuse scandals - No. There was abuse prior to VII, just as there was in secular society.

We as individuals and the Media don’t have all the facts about these cases. Our obligation is to pray that the right things are done by everyone (media especially), and the Church, Pope, and all other Hearts are healed, and guided by God to the appropriate ends.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

either you two produce verifiable stats or you’re just trolling

like i said, while i cannot say that people i know is a valid statistical group, i never know anyone who left the Catholic Church because they stand up during communion, receive on their hands, and the mass is not in Latin

i used to live in a country of 90 million people where 80% are Catholics

i have a pretty good idea of why a good number of Catholics there leave the Church, and none of them are from the reasons you claim. you’re creating misinformation to push your own personal agenda by stating non-existent statistics to fool those who are less informed in this forum

how sad. claiming to be traditional catholics, but cannot submit themselves to the wisdom of the Church and its leaders

Traditional Catholics don’t go by all the nonsense that took place from Vatican II onward. They go by what happened prior to Vatican II 99% of the time. Thus why we’re called traditional, we go by tradition. Tradition can never be changed. It’s not your place to tell us what we are and what we aren’t. I’m not saying you are one, but that comes off as being a know-it-all. And if we’re posting on the Traditional section and we’re Traditional Catholics, then please explain to me how we’re “trolling”.

 

[Mrs_Sally]

Traditional Catholics don’t go by all the nonsense that took place from Vatican II onward. They go by what happened prior to Vatican II 99% of the time. Thus why we’re called traditional, we go by tradition. Tradition can never be changed. It’s not your place to tell us what we are and what we aren’t. I’m not saying you are one, but that comes off as being a know-it-all. And if we’re posting on the Traditional section and we’re Traditional Catholics, then please explain to me how we’re “trolling”.

The trolling has to do with giving statistics and seemingly authoritative information that has no actual data, numbers, studies etc behind it. That has nothing to do with tradition.

 

[Cristiano]

Just out of curiosity how many people in this forum have read or considered reading the book “The meaning of Tradition” by Yves Congar (1964). I would suggest to get the one with the introduction by Avery Cardinal Dulles. If you want to dig deeper you can try to find the two volumes “Tradition and Traditions” (1960 and 1963).

 

[LoyalViews]

Traditional Catholics don’t go by all the nonsense that took place from Vatican II onward. They go by what happened prior to Vatican II 99% of the time. Thus why we’re called traditional, we go by tradition. Tradition can never be changed. It’s not your place to tell us what we are and what we aren’t. I’m not saying you are one, but that comes off as being a know-it-all. And if we’re posting on the Traditional section and we’re Traditional Catholics, then please explain to me how we’re “trolling”.

I’m a Traditional Catholic, Latin Mass, Smells & Bells…I accept Vatican II.
The nonsense never came from the counsel itself, it came from thos who interpreted it wrongly.

Are you a sedevacantist?

 

[Julianna]

Can anyone think of a more powerfull argument to removing the novus ordo, restoring full tradition and cleaning house of the V-II crowd than the current scandal? I know God uses calamity to bring about good, so I cannot help but wonder at what is happenning now whithout thinking this is a cleaning process in the making. I certainly am praying for that result!

You can’t be serious. Do you really think that their wasn’t any abuse prior to V-II?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Can anyone think of a more powerfull argument to removing the novus ordo, restoring full tradition and cleaning house of the V-II crowd than the current scandal? I know God uses calamity to bring about good, so I cannot help but wonder at what is happenning now whithout thinking this is a cleaning process in the making. I certainly am praying for that result!

I can think of a powerful counter argument: a great number of the priests who committed these crimes were educated and trained in the spirituality of the TLM and what you call “full tradition.” They grew up in the pre-Vatican II Church.

Fortunately, I’m aware that that argument would be as weak as your own, inasmuch as correlation does not prove causation.

 

[dmorgan]

I did not state that the Holy Catholic Church was lily white prior to V-II. I am neither that nieve nor that mis-informed. The point I am making in regards to V-II and the gross ambiguities that resulted from that conference and the heretical actions taken by modernists within the Church with little or no consequense have led to this current crisis. I stand by that statement with All my Heart!

Liturgical abuses since the late 60’s;
The lack of valid catechism training for both cradle Catholics and RCIA;
Abject refusal on the part of many Bishops to adhere to the Magestierium;
Lax enforcement of Canon Law in regards to the sexual abuse issue, until recently:

Can any one of you tell me in good conscience that these issues do not exist?
And in response to one of you, no I am not a sedevacantist. I pray a Rosary daily for Holy Father Benedict XVI, and for our Church.
But I see this current crisis as a culmination of the modernist influences within our Church that were liberated by the “spirit of V-II”. And I feel that the crack that allowed this to occur was the weak attempt to modernize the Church with V-II. I believe Benedict is attempting to resolve these issues and that is why He is under attack. I also feel that a return to more traditional Catholic teaching and a return to the Latin Mass can and will heal this rift.
If I am mis-guided or mis-informed tell me. Please show me how our Church and Faith are stonger due to V-II. Please educate me as to how the Holy Catholic church is better off because of V-II. Pax Vobiscum

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

I’m a Traditional Catholic, Latin Mass, Smells & Bells…I accept Vatican II.
The nonsense never came from the counsel itself, it came from thos who interpreted it wrongly.

Are you a sedevacantist?

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. No. I’m not a sedevacanist. I didn’t mean I don’t go by what the Pope says. What I mean was I don’t go by what Vatican II does/says. Most Traditional Catholics don’t.

 

[SpiritusSanctus]

You can’t be serious. Do you really think that their wasn’t any abuse prior to V-II?

There wasn’t much abuse prior to Vatican II. Any abuses before then are nothing compared to what they are now.