Restoring Tradition

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It was just an estimate, but pretty accurate I think. People haven’t left because they wanted Latin, they left because something about the change from Vatican II didn’t seem right to them.
No. Plenty, and I mean your 80%, left because of the Church’s UPHOLDING, post Vatican-II, of such traditional teachings as the sinfulness of abortion, contraception and remarriage after divorce without annulment. Because of the Church’s continuing teaching that women cannot be ordained.

I have many relatives who have drifted a ways or outright left the Church because of these issues. I haven’t heard a single word from any of them about the liturgy or the Council, except insofar as it may have reiterated these traditional teachings, having had even the slightest influence on their decisions.

In other words they left because they didn’t agree with so much tradition being retained by the Church, rather than having issues with any of the changes that occured after the Council or with the introduction of the Novus Ordo.
 
There wasn’t much abuse prior to Vatican II. Any abuses before then are nothing compared to what they are now.
I might be mistaken, but I’m under the impression that many of the sex abuse scandals we’ve heard of in the past and that we’re hearing of today occurred prior to Vatican II. There was even a time in the history of the Church where bishops kept mistresses :eek: (and yes, this was prior to Vatican II). One particular bishop of Vienna had a Jewish mistress for whom he built quite an estate with a very beautiful garden (which can be seen in Sound of Music during the singing of “Do, Re, Me…”).

As far as liturgical abuse goes, any historian of liturgy will tell you that there has always been liturgical abuse in the Church. I’m very fond of a saying of Fr. Robert Taft (an expert in liturgy in general and the leading expert in Byzantine Liturgy). It goes something like this, “There’s no such thing as a ‘golden age’ of Liturgy. The only ‘golden age’ is the one you’re living in right now” (with the implication that it’s our duty to do the very best with what we’ve been given).
 
Can anyone think of a more powerfull argument to removing the novus ordo, restoring full tradition and cleaning house of the V-II crowd than the current scandal? I know God uses calamity to bring about good, so I cannot help but wonder at what is happenning now whithout thinking this is a cleaning process in the making. I certainly am praying for that result!
Nope.

The Mass of Pope Paul VI isn’t going anywhere.

Not sure what “full tradition” is?

The “scandal” you speak of predates “V-II”
 
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. No. I’m not a sedevacanist. I didn’t mean I don’t go by what the Pope says. What I mean was I don’t go by what Vatican II does/says. Most Traditional Catholics don’t.
No kidding…, :rolleyes:
 
Liturgical abuses since the late 60’s;
The lack of valid catechism training for both cradle Catholics and RCIA;
Abject refusal on the part of many Bishops to adhere to the Magestierium;
Lax enforcement of Canon Law in regards to the sexual abuse issue, until recently:
Catechetical training started getting bak on track in the 1990’s. It got off track because those who came foraward in the 1970’s did not follow what was desired, and went off on their won direction (something that a whole lot of people did at that time). Moral theology was also supposed to be re-worked; but it ran head on into Situational Ethics and ended up being flushed dwon the toilet. Neiter followed the direction the bishops and the Pope wanted.

And as to lax enforcement, that goes back ages upon ages in the Church; it was just so well protected by clericalism that it was kept uder wraps. Whe do you think the homosexual priests who were the first offenders to be unmasked were ordained? Pre V2…
But I see this current crisis as a culmination of the modernist influences within our Church that were liberated by the “spirit of V-II”. And I feel that the crack that allowed this to occur was the weak attempt to modernize the Church with V-II. I believe Benedict is attempting to resolve these issues and that is why He is under attack. I also feel that a return to more traditional Catholic teaching and a return to the Latin Mass can and will heal this rift.
It would apper you have paid not too much attention to what B 16 has said about V 2. He intends to fulfill the implementation of the documents.
 
I agree.

My paternal Grandparents tried very hard to accept the Novus Ordo, but liberalism ran rampant in the years after VII, and out of pure sadness, t**hey eventually chose to no longer attend Mass at all. They felt betrayed. **
That blows my mind.

Were they well catechized Catholics? Were they aware that they were committing more than 50 mortal sins every year by not attending Mass?

The “liberalism ran rampant in the years after VII” so they felt betrayed, became sad and effectively junked the probability of eternal life with Jesus Christ?

That just doesn’t compute. :confused:
 
I agree.

My paternal Grandparents tried very hard to accept the Novus Ordo, but liberalism ran rampant in the years after VII, and out of pure sadness, they eventually chose to no longer attend Mass at all. They felt betrayed.

I myself went to Catholic School (all post VII), and NEVER once did we go over the Catechism itself. Never. The “Religion” classes were more “Morality” classes, IMO. We learned about Jesus, Mary, Saints, right and wrong, etc… but not Canon Law specifically.
I left the Church when I was a teenager, and as you said - it was out of ignorance. I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I was gone for 17 years until I chose to pick up the Catechism and read it myself – then things made sense, and I have become devout in the time since.
on the other hand, my mom became more religious and devoted when she can go to a mass she can actually understand
 
That blows my mind.

Were they well catechized Catholics? Were they aware that they were committing more than 50 mortal sins every year by not attending Mass?

The “liberalism ran rampant in the years after VII” so they felt betrayed, became sad and effectively junked the probability of eternal life with Jesus Christ?

That just doesn’t compute. :confused:
Yes. They were very well catechized, but that is how strongly they felt about it. They remained loyal to God in their home, and begged daily for his Mercy for not attending Mass. They had a confessor come to their home weekly. He also administered the Eucharist. They certainly weren’t ‘stupid’ about it.

The liberties that were taken by individual Clergy after VII tore many people apart. My Uncle was a Pastor of a Parish where one of his co-Priests proudly introduced his “Fiancee” during one of his Masses. The older Priests were forced out of their Parishes to make room for the progressives. Said Uncle ended up selling newspapers at the Airport until being taken in by the Arch Bishop of Chicago and assigned to a Parish where he served until his Death.

It was not the Council itself that did damage. They never intended to change everything - it was individuals. Many individuals that chose to make their own interpretations.
 
I might be mistaken, but I’m under the impression that many of the sex abuse scandals we’ve heard of in the past and that we’re hearing of today occurred prior to Vatican II.
Quite so. A look at early Church law shows that clerical sexual crime was known from the earliest times in the Church. The Didache, for example, condemns many sexual practices including a specific ban on ‘corrupting youth’ and the Council of Elvira (309AD) also specifically condemns men who sexually abuse young boys and sets out ways and means by which youth may be protected from predatory clergy.

St Peter Damian, a monk who became a bishop and later a Cardinal, wrote extensively about the sexual crimes of the clergy of his day (c1050AD) particularly condemning clergy who abused young boys. He attacked the Church hierarchy who ordained offenders and who failed to expel them. Sounds sadly familiar.

On 30 August 1568, Pope Pius V issued Horrendum which addressed the issue in no uncertain terms and ordered that priests who offended were to be stripped of the priesthood, deprived of all income and privileges and handed over to the secular authorities (this would have meant their execution).

More recently in 1947, Fr Gerald Fitzgerald founded the Servants of the Paraclete to minister to struggling and ‘fallen’ priests. His correspondence and files, released in 2008, reveal that sexual abusers among the clergy had become a very real concern for him. In 1957 he wrote to the then Bishop of Santa Fe: that he thought it unwise to ‘offer hospitality to men who have seduced or attempted to seduce little boys or girls’ …‘If I were a bishop I would tremble when I failed to report them to Rome for involuntary laicization. Experience has taught us these men are too dangerous to the children of the parish and the neighborhood for us to be justified in receiving them here…They should ipso facto be reduced to lay men when they act thus’. Again, how sadly familiar.

The first report on clerical sexual abuse here in Ireland was the Ferns report (2005) which independently investigated a sample number of over 100 credible allegations of sexual abuse made between 1962 and 2002 against 21 priests in that diocese. With the exception of 2 of the priests, the offenders were brought up and ordained in the pre-Vatican II church. The Ryan and Murphy reports show a similar pattern.

My point here is not to suggest in any way that something about the pre-Vatican II Church bred offenders, rather that there was never a ‘golden age’ of the Church in which the sexual abuse of children by clergy did not occur. It undoubtedly has continued post Vatican II although one hopes and prays that in another 40 years we will not have reports similar to the ones that have made the headlines over the last couple of decades.

A final point. In his recent letter to Irish Catholics, Pope Benedict suggested that ‘the rapid transformation and secularisation of Irish society’ were to blame for clerical abuse. With all due respect to His Holiness, this is unconvincing argument here in Ireland and he is either poorly informed on the situation here or he has allowed his preoccupation with secularisation and its evil twin, relativism, to cloud his analysis. As one Irish commentator noted ‘clerical abuse predated the process of secularisation – and it was in fact the very absence of secularisation that postponed its exposure’. And as a follow on from that point it should be noted that it was the secular state rather than the Irish Church in Ireland that exposed the whole scandal.
 
It was just an estimate, but pretty accurate I think. People haven’t left because they wanted Latin, they left because something about the change from Vatican II didn’t seem right to them.
I think that is wildly inaccurate. I would suspect that the people who left or are leaving the church are not in their 60s, but in their 20s or 30s or 40s and have absolutely no knowledge of, or affinity for, the pre-V2 Liturgy.

I’ve talked to a few friends who are lapsed Catholics or who have outright rejected Catholicism. When I ask why, they usually give the same sets of answers:
  1. Clergy Sexual Abuse;
  2. Perception that women are considered second-class members of the Church;
  3. Disagreements on moral issues: Homosexuality, abortion, birtch control, fornication, etc.
  4. Finally, some complain about a perception that the Church hoards wealth.
Obviously, I’m not in agreement with these people. But I’ve never, ever met a single person who left the Catholic Church claiming that Vatican II reforms were the problem. Really? Where would these people go? Anglican? Greek Orthadox? Coptic?

Time does not favor this continual argument. Every day, fewer and fewer people are familiar with the pre-Vatican 2 liturgy - so every day fewer and fewer people care about any perceived conflict over V2 reforms.

Pax,
OA
 
I think that one of the things that attracts people to the Catholic church is its uncompromising stand on moral issues such as the sanctity of human life. People are seeking a moral compass, something they can believe in. It is true that the sex abuse crisis is perceived to have weakened the Church but at least the Church is starting to deal with this, actually has been more proactive than many other organizations. I don’t see this as an argument for the EF over the OF, I think that what is needed is a return to the core teachings of the Church as were taught pre VII such as the existence of Hell, how we only have a short time here on earth accept God’s grace and be reconciled, the need for confession, that we receive Jesus’ body and blood in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. It is these kinds of traditions that will strengthen the Church.
 
I think that is wildly inaccurate. I would suspect that the people who left or are leaving the church are not in their 60s, but in their 20s or 30s or 40s and have absolutely no knowledge of, or affinity for, the pre-V2 Liturgy.

I’ve talked to a few friends who are lapsed Catholics or who have outright rejected Catholicism. When I ask why, they usually give the same sets of answers:
  1. Clergy Sexual Abuse;
  2. Perception that women are considered second-class members of the Church;
  3. Disagreements on moral issues: Homosexuality, abortion, birtch control, fornication, etc.
  4. Finally, some complain about a perception that the Church hoards wealth.
Obviously, I’m not in agreement with these people. But I’ve never, ever met a single person who left the Catholic Church claiming that Vatican II reforms were the problem. Really? Where would these people go? Anglican? Greek Orthadox? Coptic?

Time does not favor this continual argument. Every day, fewer and fewer people are familiar with the pre-Vatican 2 liturgy - so every day fewer and fewer people care about any perceived conflict over V2 reforms.

Pax,
OA
Good assessment. People 45-50 and younger have little or no exposure to pre-V11 so that agrument doenst really hold water for them.

What the bigger problem that I see is more of the growth of relativism and a secular society that most people have chosen to embrace, not the reforms of V11
 
There wasn’t much abuse prior to Vatican II. Any abuses before then are nothing compared to what they are now.
You have got to be kidding?!! Many of the priests who were charged first were charged with abuses that dated to the 40s & 50s, long before Vat. II.
 
You have got to be kidding?!! Many of the priests who were charged first were charged with abuses that dated to the 40s & 50s, long before Vat. II.
I was born before VII and I still remember that I was not allowed to become an altar server because of concerns regarding abuses. I was young but as far as I can remember nobody in my family was hinting at pedophilia but homosexuality. Within a few years VII happened and we all stopped going to Church, nothing to do with departure from Latin and tradition but a lot to do with rampant modernism and secularism outside the Church. Sadly my family has been an easy prey.
 
I was born before VII and I still remember that I was not allowed to become an altar server because of concerns regarding abuses. I was young but as far as I can remember nobody in my family was hinting at pedophilia but homosexuality. Within a few years VII happened and we all stopped going to Church, nothing to do with departure from Latin and tradition but a lot to do with rampant modernism and secularism outside the Church. Sadly my family has been an easy prey.
Your post brings up a general question for me.
Was there a subtle cultural idea that if one was gay or had a gay son that that was some sort of vocation to the priesthood or that the priesthood was a good vocation for them?

(I dont mean this as a flame or to stir up a pot.Just trying to understand if that was an underlying thread of thought of past Catholic generations. Thanks)
 
I agree.

My paternal Grandparents tried very hard to accept the Novus Ordo, but liberalism ran rampant in the years after VII, and out of pure sadness, they eventually chose to no longer attend Mass at all. They felt betrayed.

I myself went to Catholic School (all post VII), and NEVER once did we go over the Catechism itself. Never. The “Religion” classes were more “Morality” classes, IMO. We learned about Jesus, Mary, Saints, right and wrong, etc… but not Canon Law specifically.
I left the Church when I was a teenager, and as you said - it was out of ignorance. I didn’t know what I didn’t know. I was gone for 17 years until I chose to pick up the Catechism and read it myself – then things made sense, and I have become devout in the time since.
very sad that a whole family would allow themselves to be separated from Christ and his church over these issues, but not the thread topic. You did not go out and commit scandalous sins, which is what OP says happend.

anybody with reliable studies and stats to back up OP’s claim post them, otherwise best not to offer anecdotal evidence which is useless for this purpose.
 
Your post brings up a general question for me.
Was there a subtle cultural idea that if one was gay or had a gay son that that was some sort of vocation to the priesthood or that the priesthood was a good vocation for them?

(I dont mean this as a flame or to stir up a pot.Just trying to understand if that was an underlying thread of thought of past Catholic generations. Thanks)
I was too young to remember. For sure that was not the cultural idea in my extended family because it was accepted as a fact that relations with post-pubescent boys were homosexual acts and that people with those tendencies should have not been allowed in position where they could endanger children. Even if my extended family was border line anti-clerical they always thought that the priesthood was a place for real men only.

However, your comment is not out of place. Probably a lot of parents considered their “effeminate” boys as some kind of weaklings that needed the protection of the priesthood. This is still a common idea. When the son of a friend of mine announced that he wanted to enter seminary the first thing the relatives asked the “Opus Dei” father was “Is your son gay?”
 
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