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puzzleannie
Guest
and these resulted from V2 - how? proof?
and these led to the sex scandal --how? proof?
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and these led to the sex scandal --how? proof?
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Julianna
Guest
I know you won’t post again. This did not answer my question. Some “one” has to be the “enforcer”…correct? So the Bishops get the message from the Magestierium…and take that “enforcement” to the Dioceses they serve. Now what? Is there going to be a “secret police” watching over everyone?
“How” would this be enforced? That is my question.
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peary
Guest
There is no reason to remove the Novus Ordo because it is a valid and legitimate form of worship for the Church. It is not as beautiful as the EF but when done with solemnity and humbleness - and done the way as envisioned at Vatican II - it is quite moving. What needs to be done is for bishops en masse to crack down on liturgists in their respective diocese and move them in the direction of what Vatican II intended. If you don’t have the bishops doing this, you will never get it under control. Hopefully, as a majority of them in the United States begin to retire in the next two years, the pope will be able to replace them with those who really want to implement Vatican II’s vision of worship.
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Lormar
Guest
They could use the same method they did in the sixties…give everyone no other option. Take it or leave it. Oh, there will be some hold-outs, and then people will flock to those churches the same way people travelled great distances flocking to the churches where priests still said the old Mass. But sooner rather than later it will all die out. And before you know it, there will be a generation or two that will have no recollection of the new Mass and the post-VII innovations.
And then everyone can come here and duke it out!
But instead of this being called the traditional section, it will be the novus ordo section! 
Seriously, though, in the sixties we had no choice. Everything “old” disappeared so fast our heads were spinning. They could do the same thing again, but I wouldn’t advise it.
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choy
Guest
if we’re going to introduce a uniform “format”, then its not just about Traditionalists anymore. we’ll drive the Eastern Chruches into schism and kill any hope of reuniting with some of those in the Anglican ChurchThey could use the same method they did in the sixties…give everyone no other option. Take it or leave it. Oh, there will be some hold-outs, and then people will flock to those churches the same way people travelled great distances flocking to the churches where priests still said the old Mass. But sooner rather than later it will all die out. And before you know it, there will be a generation or two that will have no recollection of the new Mass and the post-VII innovations.
And then everyone can come here and duke it out!
Seriously, though, in the sixties we had no choice. Everything “old” disappeared so fast our heads were spinning. They could do the same thing again, but I wouldn’t advise it.
i honestly believe there is a place for all in the Catholic Church, we should be respectful of everyone. the first thing that happened after Pentecost is that the Apostles spoke in many different tongues that everyone in the world would understand the message of God. i can’t see why we can’t live that spirit and have mass in every language possible, Latin included
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otjm
Guest
That would be hard, considering how weak the proposal is to begin with; there is no connection between the sex abuse and the OF.
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otjm
Guest
Did you read what I wrote?
I answered both questions inthe text.
None. Nada. Zip. No connection. Does not correlate.
People leave the Church for a multitud of reasons; they always have and always will.
Undoubtedly there were some who left over the Vatican 2 documents; in any group of a billion people, you are going to have some who are there until they actually confront what the Church is about.
Undoubtedly some left over the OF. Some of those went to SSPX in defiance of the Pope and the bishops. There will always be some who do.
But the vast majority of people who seem to leave don’t do so, did not do so, and are highly unlikely at this late date and time to do so over either the documents of Vatican 2 or the OF. They have other reasons for doing so.
And there is plenty of them - both people and reasons.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
I think you are right. i think most of us have lost the sense that God may be punishing us for the change of Worship and lack of holiness in His House and disobedience of bishops and priests. the lack of care for God’s House.
but i was listen to EWTN just yesterday when i heard that the pope said that the NO it is the normal Mass in the CC. i was a little disapointed.
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peary
Guest
I agree. However, the ones who I have talked to who have left the Church usually point to a teaching of the Church that they do not agree with, or a moral behavior that they themselves point to (such as cohabitation or pre-marital sex, birth control or even divorce). So, they find themselves a more ‘accepting’ denomination that endorses such behavior. I’ve never heard anyone leave the Church because of Vatican II.
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Bbigam
Guest
Yes, that’s why the Holy Father calls it the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and the Mass of Trent is the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.
However, the Ordinary Form as celebrated and promoted by the Pope is much more traditional than the Ordinary Form as celebrated in many parishes. I think we would all do well to remember that, yes, it is the Ordinary Form, but can and should be celebrated the way the Holy Father does it (minus special proper Papal and Pontifical rites), not like the irreverent stuff that some people like to point to on YouTube and the like (“clown masses” and the like, but also merely a lack of reverence and traditional elements in the celebration).
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peary
Guest
If it’s stated on a blog, then it must be true!ah yes, blogs, the source of unbiased opinion
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Marie5890
Guest
I agree. My parish celebrates the NO and it and its very uplifting and worshipful. Very reverent and yet accessible to those of us in the pews. We feel very much apart of it.
I have been to the parish in our town that is much more progressive. (UGH). They dont kneel, they have so-called liturgical dancing and other such abuses. I hated it. So much so I just had to focus on the reality that I was there to be with the Lord and partake of the Eucharist and just forget the rest otherwise I would have been in a bad attitude.
I really do think the NO can be wonderful IF it is done in the way it was intended, and w/o the abuses that have crept into the Mass in other places.
I have seen several Papal Masses on EWTN and my parish pretty much mirrors what you see there.
Im grateful to my pastor that he celebrates a what I call a liturgically authentic Mass. (I mean no offense to those in that wording, but after having attended a Mass in that other parish it’s the only way I can express it right now.
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peary
Guest
The eastern orthodox are in schism. The Eastern rites would not be affected. It would only affect the Latin rite. The traditional Anglicans are sometimes more ‘Catholic’ than the Catholics when it comes to Liturgy.
If only your opinions would have been exercised in the 1960s-70s when tradition was hijacked. If that would have occurred, then traditional Catholics wouldn’t have been relegated to the firepits of Hell as they were for the past forty years.
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dmorgan
Guest
For everyone who has posted in regards to the Novus Ordo, you might like reading this:
fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html
I really become disheartened by the lack of knowledge as to how the Novus Ordo came about. And the damage that destroying the true Sacrifice of the Mass has done to the Church as a whole. My dispute with V-II and the disasters that occured afterwards was the ambiguous langage that was used that allowed the modernists, who by the way inserted much of the abiguity into the documents, to destroy our tradition. The point of my original comment was that the loss of tradition, the loss of The sacred Sacrafice of the Mass, and the loss of conformity throughout the Holy Church has allowed the results we see today. Not just the terrible Pederast issues but the blasphemous attacks on the Holy Father by clergy, the Nuns that supported the health care vote, the bishops that will not reign in disenting religious members of their Dioceses and the ignorance of the rank and file faithful about what it is supposed to mean to be Catholic.
To those who are bound and determined to continue supporting this error, and attacking anyone who dares to question the validity of the Novus Ordo and the other changes done in "the spirit of V-II; May God Bless and Keep you.
To the Traditionalists that frequent this forum, please continue to pray for a return to our Sacred Tradition which defended Holy Mother Church from satan for 2000 years.
Pax Vobiscum
Miserére mei, Deus, secúndum magnam misericórdiam tuam
fisheaters.com/ottavianiintervention.html
I really become disheartened by the lack of knowledge as to how the Novus Ordo came about. And the damage that destroying the true Sacrifice of the Mass has done to the Church as a whole. My dispute with V-II and the disasters that occured afterwards was the ambiguous langage that was used that allowed the modernists, who by the way inserted much of the abiguity into the documents, to destroy our tradition. The point of my original comment was that the loss of tradition, the loss of The sacred Sacrafice of the Mass, and the loss of conformity throughout the Holy Church has allowed the results we see today. Not just the terrible Pederast issues but the blasphemous attacks on the Holy Father by clergy, the Nuns that supported the health care vote, the bishops that will not reign in disenting religious members of their Dioceses and the ignorance of the rank and file faithful about what it is supposed to mean to be Catholic.
To those who are bound and determined to continue supporting this error, and attacking anyone who dares to question the validity of the Novus Ordo and the other changes done in "the spirit of V-II; May God Bless and Keep you.
To the Traditionalists that frequent this forum, please continue to pray for a return to our Sacred Tradition which defended Holy Mother Church from satan for 2000 years.
Pax Vobiscum
Miserére mei, Deus, secúndum magnam misericórdiam tuam
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pnewton
Guest
Actually I can not think of a worse argument. Besides being logically defunct, even if it did prove true, it would prove too much. The logical thing then would be to abandon Catholicism for its pedophilia (which is what some propose).
No. Those who abuse children do so for reasons having nothing to do with theology or liturgy.
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Bbigam
Guest
As I mentioned before, Vatican II, like it or not, is part of Sacred Tradition, and the so-called “spirit of Vatican II” is not. If an Ecumenical Council approved by the Popes is in serious error, then the Gates of Hades have prevailed and Christ lied to St. Peter. If the Popes promulgated for the whole Roman Rite (i.e. most of the Church) a Mass that is of inherently questionable validity, that sounds like the Gates of Hades too.
You can question the “spirit of Vatican II” and pederasty and dissension and attacks on the Holy Father by clergy and religious. I do. You can question the many illicit practices that have crept into the way too many priests celebrate the Ordinary Form of the Mass. I do, too. But you can’t reject an ecumenical council of the Church, and you can’t reject a duly promulgated rite of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Well, of course you can question those, no one can stop you, but if you do, you may as well question the Council of Trent and the Mass of Trent while you’re at it, and all the rest of the Councils.
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hosemonkey
Guest
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mick321
Guest
So what’s the bottom line?
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Bbigam
Guest
I’m not entirely sure what you are asking. If you mean what are my conclusions in my post…
Vatican II is an Ecumenical Council of the Church of equal standing with the rest of the Councils, and must be regarded as such - fully accepted, and understood in the light of all the rest of the Sacred Tradition of the Church. This excludes the so-called “spirit of Vatican II.”
The Ordinary Form of the Mass is a valid and duly promulgated celebration of the Eucharist and must be accepted as such, and should be celebrated in the light of all the rest of Sacred Tradition. This excludes all manner of illicit and irreverent practices. It also doesn’t mean that the Ordinary Form has to be someone’s preferred rite or form of the Eucharistic Liturgy, since the Extraordinary Form, Byzantine Liturgies, and several others are also fully valid and licit Liturgies of the Church.
Does this answer your question?
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wisdomseeker
Guest
so, according to you, the VII was about coming up with another type of Mass?
because now, we have two different Masses in the CC. and lots of confusion. no one knows what to believe anymore or in whom to belive.
do you know why Pope Paul said? the smoke of satan has entered the Church. for what reason he said that?
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